Been having a debate with one of my players and we are at a disagreement on how Grab works. Note, I am not including Constrict in this example, as the creature in question (A Goblin Feral Gnasher) does not have Constrict, only Grab.
The Goblin has 14 strength, only one natural attack (excluding unarmed) that deals 1d6 damage with +3 from strength since it is a single attack. The Goblin has Grab that goes along with its bite, and can use Grab on enemies who are medium or smaller.
Here is how I argue it rules:
Turn 1: Goblin Bites Player, dealing 1d6+3 damage and succeeding with his Grapple Check. Player and Goblin are both grappled.
Turn 2: Goblin successfully maintains grapple. He deals 1d6+3 damage from the attack used to establish the grapple, then using his grapple action, may choose to either: Move the player, attempt to pin or tie up, or deal damage to the player equal to an unarmed strike, a natural attack, or with a light or one-handed weapon (or armor spikes).
As a result, the goblin, if it chooses to deal damage equal to the natural attack, effectively does 2d6+6 damage per turn AFTER the first that it maintains the grapple, yes? (If it chooses to deal damage equal to its bite attack each turn with its grapple action, which it doesn't have to do)
Instead, the goblin can do 1d6+3 damage (with grab) and choose to move the target, pin, etc.
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My player, meanwhile, argues slightly differently:
Turn 1: Same as above
Turn 2: Goblin successfully maintains grapple. He can then use his grapple action to move the player, attempt to pin or tie up, or deal damage to the player equal to an unarmed strike, a natural attack, or with a light or one-handed weapon (or armor spikes).
In this case, the goblin can only do 1d6+3 damage per turn and only if he chooses to deal damage with his grapple action.
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I am well aware that this question has come up many times in the past; I've done thorough research on it, but in all of the cases, Constrict was used in the examples, and I'm not using Constrict (At this time, at least).
What do you guys think?
Grab itself does not deal damage. On subsequent turn the grappler must choose the damage option from grapple and he would do 1d6+3. Your player is correct.
So, I think you have some misunderstanding about the grapple rules. I am not perfectly up to snuff on them either, but I will try to help here.
Firstly, lets look at Grab.
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply to use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
Creatures with grab receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.
Unless otherwise noted, grab works only against opponents no larger than the same size category as the creature. If the creature can use grab on sizes other than the default, this is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line.
First I want to point out that grab only works on same size or smaller, or one size category smaller (dpeneding on which bestiary you look in). This means a goblin, which is small, can only use grab on small or smaller oppoenents unless they have some other special ability. Grab allows you to start a grapple on the target after you have successfully hit with an attack that has grab as an effect (which also happens to deal damage).
Assuming your grapple is successful (either using the -20 to grapple to not become grappled yourself or choosing to do a normal grapple) no other damage is applied that round from the grapple, though you may have other weapons you can use to attack with if making a full attack action. One subsequent rounds, per the wording of grab, a successful grapple maneuver deals damage as the attack that originally allowed for the grab.
The Goblin's grab is special in that he can grab bigger than himself. He can eventually grapple Huge creatures, hilariously enough. I can only imagine WHAT he bites in order to grapple a giant..
Assuming your grapple is successful (either using the -20 to grapple to not become grappled yourself or choosing to do a normal grapple) no other damage is applied that round from the grapple, though you may have other weapons you can use to attack with if making a full attack action. One subsequent rounds, per the wording of grab, a successful grapple maneuver deals damage as the attack that originally allowed for the grab.
In this case, I would be right then - that by simply maintaining the grapple on subsequent rounds he does damage. As per grapple rules, he can then use his grapple action to move/pin/damage.
Quoting grapple rules:
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply to use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
Creatures with grab receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.
Unless otherwise noted, grab works only against opponents no larger than the same size category as the creature. If the creature can use grab on sizes other than the default, this is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line.
Emphasis mine, again. Thus does the creature only deal damage with grab if it has constrict but doesn't use it? That doesn't really make sense, as in the bolded statement, grab does deal damage. Does it deny the grapple action that the grappler gets when he maintains a grapple, automatically forcing him to deal damage? My understanding was that it did damage and then you could use a grapple action on top of it.
I'm well aware that Grab doesn't deal damage on the round its used to establish a grapple, but on subsequent rounds is where the issue is.
Ah you know what, I just realized the wording.
The bolded line had to do with the HOLD action - a Hold being where the creature takes a -20 to not gain the grapple condition itself.
So in this situation:
Round 1: Goblin Bites Player and takes a -20 on its grapple check to 'Hold' the player and somehow succeeds. Player gains grapple condition, Goblin does not.
Round 2: Goblin maintains the 'Hold' with a grapple check (taking a -20 to do so) and deals damage equal to the attack it used to establish the 'Hold'. The Goblin can then deal move/pin/deal damage. Goblin remains ungrappled, while the player remains grappled.
Yes/no?
Ah you know what, I just realized the wording.
The bolded line had to do with the HOLD action - a Hold being where the creature takes a -20 to not gain the grapple condition itself.
So in this situation:
Round 1: Goblin Bites Player and takes a -20 on its grapple check to 'Hold' the player and somehow succeeds. Player gains grapple condition, Goblin does not.
Round 2: Goblin maintains the 'Hold' with a grapple check (taking a -20 to do so) and deals damage equal to the attack it used to establish the 'Hold'. The Goblin can then deal move/pin/deal damage. Goblin remains ungrappled, while the player remains grappled.
Yes/no?
Actually I think you are right here upon re-reading grab. Only if you take the -20 and successfully make a grapple check do you establish a hold with that natural attack. If you establish a hold then on subsequent rounds you deal that natural attack damage again, and can (as part of the actions allowed by a successful grapple check) deal damage with another weapon or natural atatck.
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Ah you know what, I just realized the wording.
The bolded line had to do with the HOLD action - a Hold being where the creature takes a -20 to not gain the grapple condition itself.
So in this situation:
Round 1: Goblin Bites Player and takes a -20 on its grapple check to 'Hold' the player and somehow succeeds. Player gains grapple condition, Goblin does not.
Round 2: Goblin maintains the 'Hold' with a grapple check (taking a -20 to do so) and deals damage equal to the attack it used to establish the 'Hold'. The Goblin can then deal move/pin/deal damage. Goblin remains ungrappled, while the player remains grappled.
Yes/no?
This is correct, you get "successive constricts" for free if you're holding the opponent with the -20 penalty from grab.
This is correct, you get "successive constricts" for free if you're holding the opponent with the -20 penalty from grab.Ah you know what, I just realized the wording.
The bolded line had to do with the HOLD action - a Hold being where the creature takes a -20 to not gain the grapple condition itself.
So in this situation:
Round 1: Goblin Bites Player and takes a -20 on its grapple check to 'Hold' the player and somehow succeeds. Player gains grapple condition, Goblin does not.
Round 2: Goblin maintains the 'Hold' with a grapple check (taking a -20 to do so) and deals damage equal to the attack it used to establish the 'Hold'. The Goblin can then deal move/pin/deal damage. Goblin remains ungrappled, while the player remains grappled.
Yes/no?
Yeah, even though it's not really constrict that's basically how it works out. If you had constrict you would deal that damage in addition, I think. Or maybe instead.
Man are grapple rules not worded very clearly.
I will look at this again later. These rules need to be rewritten.
Hopefully we'll see some official clarification in Pathfinder Unchained!
I think they can be understood, but it might take too much parsing, similar to when I broke down how not being detected would by RAW allow for sneak attack.
I just looked at this and it just brought up more questions. I know how I will run it at home, but I can't prove a whole lot by RAW.
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply to use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
Creatures with grab receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.
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Not really that complicated - unless i'm missing something (which wouldn't surprise me :)).
1) on a successful attack get a free 'start grapple'. Then choose grapple normally (2a) or hold (2b)2a) Grapple normally (Duh!)among other things this means you gain the grappled condition.
2b) Hold at -20 CMB, you can grapple normally except you do not gain the grappled condition.
The bolded bit about the damage is essentially just clarifying that you use the damage of the grabbing attack instead of some other unarmed/natural/weapon damage when holding(you can't bite someone, hold them and then use a claw to deal the damage).
Which I suppose adds "and you can bring all your weapons to bear" to (2a)
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply to use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
Creatures with grab receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.
.Not really that complicated - unless i'm missing something (which wouldn't surprise me :)).
1) on a successful attack get a free 'start grapple'. Then choose grapple normally (2a) or hold (2b)2a) Grapple normally (Duh!)among other things this means you gain the grappled condition.
2b) Hold at -20 CMB, you can grapple normally except you do not gain the grappled condition.The bolded bit about the damage is essentially just clarifying that you use the damage of the grabbing attack instead of some other unarmed/natural/weapon damage when holding(you can't bite someone, hold them and then use a claw to deal the damage).
Which I suppose adds "and you can bring all your weapons to bear" to (2a)
How and when do you apply damage with regard to having constrict vs not having constrict? That is the question here.
My take:
The hold rule is just grapple without the grappled condition and an attack restriction. Everything else runs off of the normal grapple rules.
So you constrict anytime you deal damage with a grapple.
Most of the reference to constrict is (poorly executed) reminder text. If your read it, it doesn't actually change the rules of either 'constrict' or 'grapple'. It doesn't actually add any new rule. It is largely superfluous. Take it out and everything works just fine exactly the same way.
Each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. If it has the constrict ability it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
I don't think that changes anything, but I could be fooling myself...
I don't have my beastiary, but AFAIK constrict is free damage and rake is (by default) 2 free claw attacks, once you are the grabbler, then you can do a grabble check to deal damage on top of that.
However without either constrict or rake or similar abilities, your gobling only deals bite damage once while grabbling and only if it makes it's check, but grabbling someone has a range of other benefits
The Goblin's grab is special in that he can grab bigger than himself. He can eventually grapple Huge creatures, hilariously enough. I can only imagine WHAT he bites in order to grapple a giant..
What's really funny is that "grapple" does not have a size limitation--only "grab" does. So if your Goblin doesn't care about getting the free grapple check on an attack, he can grapple anything he wants to.
My 5th level Halfling tetori monk recently grappled a huge ooze and held it down while everyone else beat up on it. Then it exploded all over her...it was icky.