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Hello forums please be kind :)
Brand new player wanting to build a barbarian tanklike class for a Societies group. I used Hero Lab to play with some numbers and settled on this initial build:
Male Human Barbarian 1
CN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +2
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Defense
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AC 17, touch 13, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +3 Dex)
hp 17 (1d12+5)
Fort +6, Ref +3, Will -2; +1 trait bonus vs. enchantment spells & effects
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee greatsword +3 (2d6+3/19-20)
Ranged longbow +4 (1d8/×3)
Special Attacks rage (8 rounds/day)
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Statistics
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Str 15, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 11, Wis 7, Cha 7
Base Atk +1; CMB +3; CMD 16
Feats Combat Reflexes, Power Attack
Traits indomitable, reactionary
Skills Heal -1, Intimidate +2, Perception +2, Survival +2, Swim +3
Languages Common
SQ fast movement
Other Gear hide armor, greatsword, longbow, 10 gp
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Special Abilities
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Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Indomitable +1 to saves vs. enchantment spells and effects.
Power Attack -1/+2 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rage (8 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
What would be the pros and cons of this barbarian?
Or Have I completely screwed up? :)
Any advice is greatly appreciated.
Rev
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This could be stronger. Tanks in Pathfinder aren't all about having solid AC/hit points. You need to be a threat on the board, and a 15 Str is fairly low for a 2H barb. More worrisome, is the 7 Wisdom. Someone will eventually have you fail a will save and you'll kill your party.
If you're going the combat reflexes route, use a polearm. It will greatly increase your damage output.
The most popular way I've seen to build a "tank" barbarian is the Stalwart route. Basically, you go the invulnerable rager route, take the combat reflexes feat, and use the stalwart feats to convert the dodge from combat reflexes into more DR. You will easily be having DR over 10, whille having a high strength to dish out tons of damage. On top of that, around mid level you will need to get the supersitious rage power, and invest your human FC bonus into it. This will give you a massive boost to your saves (but don't have this let you skip out on a cloak of resistance!)
Conis nowhere near that important. Fortitude is your good save, and you have a ton of hp anyway. You get more rage rounds from it....but nowhere near enough that you can justify how much it hurts your strength stat (which is what you rely on when you aren't raging...also when you are raging as well) and your wisdom.
And reflex is usually not that important (not as scary as will....which you dumped) and as such dex is not that important.
Get at least a decent strength (16) and don't dump wis.
Here is something that better fits your abilities.
STR: 16 DEX: 15 CON: 17 (15+2) INT: 10 WIS: 10 CHA: 7
My dm would to alow it but take 2 lvls of unbreakable fighter rest invulnerable rager. Take stalwart line of feats and extra dr rage powers.... Get a dr up to 20. Don't really care bout ac use reckless abandon and still do good dmg with a 2 h wp.
I forgot it works best with crane style feats and/or cautious fighter feat. So take human racial heritage halfling.. Cautious fighter... Add in acrobatics and even without crane style ur fighting defensively with a 2 h wp at -4+5.
1. Swap your Con and Str.
2. Lower your Dex to 12 and raise up your Wis
3. Check out the Armored Hulk archetype: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---b arbarian-archetypes/armored-hulk
4. Be a tank.
Idk but my experience is if u raise ur ac to where it takes a 20 to hit u the dm will just advance the bad guys till they can hit u. If u let them hit u and just use dr or a lot of hps it works better. Also if u run into something that can bypass dr u just take the increase in ac instead.
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Thanks so much for the advice. I never really thought about end game of mid game when choosing stats. I will def look at the stalwart route and make adjustments.
Another question my group is only 4 of us. Do I need to be concerned about making it all the way through a PFS scenario without dying if I don't have a higher HP? I mean there is no resting between encounters.
Thanks again for the advice.
Btw. Other members are wizard, cleric and sorcerer.
I bookmarked a link for DR optimization that I never used in the end, could be help for you.
The barbarian "tank" that I will make for PFS:
Dwarven Barbarian(Invulnerable Rager):
str 16
dex 14
con 15/17
int 10
wis 10/12
cha 08/06
Feats: power attack
Using a Dwarven waraxe and a large shield.
Use one of your traits for rager of the society for extra rage rounds. I forgot how many rounds it gives you, but it was decent.
The idea behind this character was to survive longer rather than one shot bosses. Crits are still awesome. And if the rest of the party is down, you can always unstrap the shield and two hand the axe.
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My idea is a half orc invulnerable eager with ferocious tenacity and the stalwart line of feats. Either Lorewarden or unarmed fighter for combat expertise/crane style and take the healing rage power and fast healer and the fast healing rage power. They're only once per day but you heal quite a lot and it is thematic.
I wanted to grab a whip/scorpion whip and spiked heavy shield and use ground breaker and sit back and disarm and trip foes and bash anyone who got near. With a 16 base Str the damage should be alright and the character quite visually cool. If he wasn't so strapped for feats and cool barbarian rage powers, Pain Taster would be right up his ally.
An alternative I am looking at is a charisma based barbarian who uses the spirit totem rage powers for passive damage to all enemies adjacent to him. This might work well with the Dr and ground breaker to keep foes nearby.
Neither build has all of the typical 'best' rage powers like superstition. I wanted to branches out a little and try some of the other 90+ powers available. If I fail a will save, tough. It's part of the game and should make for a good story- you know, unless I kill everyone. ^_^
Either way, I wish I didn't want ferocious tenacity so much because I really would rather be human.
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whats the best non item to get rage cycles?
horizon walker 2 & Roused Anger?
horizon 3?
1 oracle ? (leaving room for 1-2 fightr dip)
5 martial artist?(nice grappler tank)
IMO rage cycling is asking your DM to dislike you - and your character build. Don't mess with rage cycling, and don't mess with your DM. You will both be happier that way, in the long run.
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Barbarians naturally become immune to fatigue (granted at very high levels).
Never mind that with 15k a barbarian could simply elect to have a cord of stubborn resolve. Moreover, if they are an invulnerable eager or higher enough level normally, the Dr is doubled against subdual damage making this a non-issue. There is just a certain level where, if a barbarian wants it, they can rage cycle. That level can be 4 (maybe 3), 7, 9, or 17. There is even though oom in between with certain races. Rage cycling shouldn't be a big deal for a gm.
whats the best non item to get rage cycles?
horizon walker 2 & Roused Anger?
horizon 3?
1 oracle ? (leaving room for 1-2 fightr dip)
5 martial artist?(nice grappler tank)
Scarred rager 2. You can now end rage after your turn, be fatigued while it is not your turn and continue raging on your next turn.
Not good with rage powers that only work during the enemy's turn but good with once/rage powers.
Forgot to mention rage power plans. I was thinking going Renewed Vigor and regenerative vigor. Also considering the celestial totem for the insane healing bonuses. Only active while raging, but when you need that healing...
Raging Vitality feat is also a feat to remember. Prevents the nasty unconscious sudden death.
If I'd mainly be going for survivability I'd take a half-orc and combine fire god's blessing with celestial totem. (needs a flaming weapon to work. Or if going scarred rager you could use own-turn rage cycling with elemental rage, lesser.) Not too much healing but char level +1 once per round is ok.
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If your GM is cool about it, Paladins make great tankers. Their ability to use LOH to self-heal and still full round each turn, give them a lot of staying power.
They have good saves thanks to divine grace and are immune many effects thanks to their auras and mercies.
If you want a more defensive tank, do look up the paladin.
The fact that every evil creature would likely want to kill you first, would also greatly help. :P
Trade the great sword and longbow for a scimitar, heavy shield, and javelins.
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@Skull, My tank is grabbing those exact rage powers but he is starting with a 19 con and taking the fast healer feat to !make things get stupid, quickly. The only problem is that the raging vitality line is only once per day. This makes me feel like I have to burn a feat on something like godless healing (which isn't bad on this build). Once per day you can super heal and then a backup fest for additional healing as needed. Although, with fast healer and a wand of infernal healing you might get more bang for your buck if you have a good enough umd. My only problem is making sure I am there to take the hits somehow. The bodyguard chain did come to mind.
@Umbranus, Lesser Elemental Rage doesn't heal. Did you mean the celestial totem?
@Umbranus, Lesser Elemental Rage doesn't heal. Did you mean the celestial totem?
First I was talking about the celestial totem, then about combining it with lesser elemental rage via rage cycling.
Too many "tank" builds focus too heavily on survivability, and not enough on actually being a threat. Having a huge bag of hit points and saves/DR/whatever is all well and good, but you still need to have reasons for the enemy to care enough to hit you. There is no aggro system in Pathfinder, and at a certain point enemies are going to be smart enough to ignore you and go for the mage in a dress behind you.
Too many "tank" builds focus too heavily on survivability, and not enough on actually being a threat. Having a huge bag of hit points and saves/DR/whatever is all well and good, but you still need to have reasons for the enemy to care enough to hit you. There is no aggro system in Pathfinder, and at a certain point enemies are going to be smart enough to ignore you and go for the mage in a dress behind you.
A 2h Barbarian with Power Attack will suffice, in my experience.
tossing a build into the thread:
INVINCIBLE BARBARIAN
(fighter 1 / barbarian 18 / fighter 1)
str 32 (5+2r), dex 24 (5), con 24 (5), int 16, wis 20 (5), cha 16
+5 str (level), +6 all (gear), +5 str, +4 dex/con (book/wish)
traits: ??? / ???
rage powers:
3 - superstition
5 - lesser beast totem
7 - beast totem
9 - reckless abandon
11 - greater beast totem
13 - guarded life
15 - greater guarded life
17 - auspicious mark
19 - improved DR/-
feats:
1 - diehard*, endurance*, power attack, combat reflexes (r)
3 - combat expertise
5 - extra rage power (witch hunter)
7 - extra rage power (spell sunder)
9 - stalwart
11 - improved stalwart
13 - extra rage power (come and get me)
15 - extra rage power (strength surge)
17 - extra rage power (flesh wound)
19 - extra rage power (eater of magic)
20 - lunge*
42f/37r/35w & DR 21/- (42/- vs nonlethal) while raging/fighting defensively.
you'll eat an AoO using spell sunder (since you don't have imp. sunder), but with your HP and defenses I think you can handle it.
could alternately go fate's favored destined primal bloodrager for stupid-high saves and accuracy against everything, not just magic.
or crossblooded destined/arcane, idk.
made that bloodrager, here it is so far:
*fleet of foot alt. racial ability taken
** - FCB spent on +5 dodge AC against anything medium size and up
START - str 14 (10-2r), dex 14 (2+2r), con 14 (5), int 10, wis 10, cha 15 (3+2r)
END - str 28 (36 rage), dex 20, con 20 (28 rage), int 16, wis 16, cha 26
cha/str/str/str/str (level), +6 all (gear), +4 str/cha (book/wish)
traits: fortune's favored / ???
bloodrage rounds: 47 (4+5+38)
bloodline abilities:
1 - destined (1 - destined strike)
4 - destined (4 - fated bloodrager)
8 - arcane (8 - greater arcane bloodrage)
12 - arcane (4 - arcane bloodrage)
16 - arcane (16 - true arcane bloodrage)
20 - destined (16 - unstoppable)
feats:
1 - power attack
3 - arcane strike
5 - blooded arcane strike
6 - weapon focus (falchion)*
7 - lunge
9 - steadfast personality, improved initiative*
11 - blasting charge
12 - lightning reflexes*
13 - rage casting
15 - riving strike, iron will*
17 - raging absorption
18 - leadership* (because why not)
19 - ???
bonus spells:
7 - shield
10 - invisibility
13 - lightning bolt
16 - dimension door
(bloodraging with blur, haste, and one of beast shape 4/form of the dragon 1/transformation, wielding a +5 furious courageous keen holy falchion)
AC: 53
(10 + 10 mithral breastplate, 5 dex, 7 dodge, 5 natural, 5 deflect, 6 luck, 1 size, 4 shield (spell))
SAVES: 36f/27r/35w*
(12/6/6 class, 5/5/3 stats, 6/6/6 luck, 5/5/5 cloak, 0/2/9 feats, 1/1/1 race, 7/0/5 rage+courageous, 0/2/0 haste)
* - +4 will vs enchantment spells
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Too many "tank" builds focus too heavily on survivability, and not enough on actually being a threat. Having a huge bag of hit points and saves/DR/whatever is all well and good, but you still need to have reasons for the enemy to care enough to hit you. There is no aggro system in Pathfinder, and at a certain point enemies are going to be smart enough to ignore you and go for the mage in a dress behind you.
You can avoid being a threat entirely and still tank. It's not like tactical maneuvering and strategic planning don't factor in. Do all of the tanks you know run in groups who spread out in an open room? You can tank by simply entering a room first, hitting a monster first, blocking an entranceway (with your caster behind you), using feats like standstill. None of those actions (beyond hurting the thing) are threatening but they all contribute to tanking as a 'fleshy bag of HP'. I've already proven that you can tank and deal 0 (or darn near 0) dpr to specifically prove this line of thinking factually and fundamentally wrong. My first pfs character was a tank who had almost no ability to threaten or harm monsters. But he tanked, regardless.
Tanking does not require damage dealing or threatening. Pathfinders roots are not based on an mmo philosophy. A bag of HP standing in front of a wizard and keeping you from reaching him works just fine. Plus it's funny when the HP sack isn't fighting back very well. :)
Agreed. The MMORPG tank role doesn't work in non MMORPG games. There are some feat options to force a monster to attack your character iirc, but those feel wrong.
What I mean with a tank build is the guy who can take lots of hits and keeps fighting.
stalwart invulnerable rager fits the bill.
Wait...why is there no resting between encounters?
Anyways, I highly suggest the Mad Dog Brbarian Archetype for a 4 person party....is your cleric more martial based or casting? If casting, then go Mad Dog for sure...you get an animal companion at the expense of a few rage powers, but it adds another body on the battlefield to lock up enemies, important at lower levels. Get a big cat or bear or something sweet.
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A solid tank should have a few things. reliable saves, high hit points and some form of damage mitigation. Rather it be armor class, Damage reduction, or miss chance. Another less commonly considered form of damage mitigation is killing what is trying to kill you.
Once you have found ways to increase your survivability you need to find a way of creating threat. few feats or abilities in this game allow actual threat generation. My favorite way of generating threat is by putting myself between my adversary and my companion. feats like stand still, improved trip, and combat reflexes make you very difficult to walk past and ignore.
a favorite tank of mine is a Viking fighter that prestiges stalwart defender. i grab the feats stalwart and improved stalwart. with dodge improved unarmed strike and crane style feats. this gives a solid dr boost and a nice ac. i like to use trip with my axe. later in life taking feats to fight with shield and axe.
you can take 2 levels of paladin for cha to saves and that benefits this well or the rage power for saves. this character will have nice hit points a decent ac (wearing at least a breast plate) be very hard to get past with defense powers and imp trip you can stop people from getting past you.
equip a reach weapon and become a wall of aos.
Lastoth the two DR /-- do not stack.. one of the few exceptions is stalwart feat. so invulnerable ranger stalwart defender is no good.
Go read stalwart completely and pay close attention to the part where it explicitly points out it stacks with barbarian DR.
@nephril: there's several ways to create 'threat', including those you mentioned. beyond physically keeping them away from your teammates via reach/AoOs/positioning/stand still and similar feats, you can create threat by making yourself a priority target in your own right, via exceptional damage output or crowd control (such as fearstacking and other debuffs that can be applied while stabbing things), since while the enemy might want to kill the wizard off quickly, it's hard to ignore the screaming berserker barreling down on him.