Hi, I was experimenting with some ideas for a campaign I might want to run in the future and I'm wondering how a world without any arcane magic would develop, what important spells are missing that shape the way civilization exists, etc? I couldn't find a list of spells sorted by arcane and divine so any help there straight up would be great.
Anything else that I'm missing that would be different?
That's because the lists cross over. What are you trying to accomplish?
darkwarriorkarg wrote: That's because the lists cross over. What are you trying to accomplish? One of the concepts I have is that what's keeping the world stable is that it's drawing upon the inherent magic of the universe and in doing so is using up the arcane magic which would normally allow wizards and the such.
I'm not really trying to accomplish anything specifically with this but I'm curious if it will work without breaking the system.
There surely should be a list somewhere of those only divine and only arcane I'd hope.
Not that I know of. Pretty much everywhere that sorts spells sorts them by what classes can cast them.
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RMcD wrote: Hi, I was experimenting with some ideas for a campaign I might want to run in the future and I'm wondering how a world without any arcane magic would develop, what important spells are missing that shape the way civilization exists, etc? I couldn't find a list of spells sorted by arcane and divine so any help there straight up would be great.
Anything else that I'm missing that would be different?
Not that much would need change. The standard default settings don't seem to be constructed in any way shaped by the presence of magic, nor does magic enter into everyday lives in the standard settings. People ride horses... (or walk), raise crops, pretty much the same, most of the magic PCs take for granted isn't in the reach of the common man. Nor is it super abundant in any case.
Orthos wrote: Not that I know of. Pretty much everywhere that sorts spells sorts them by what classes can cast them. Pretty much what Orthos says. You can also sort by school and subschool on http://www.d20pfsrd.com/
If the situation you described had not always been in place, you might have 'artifacts' from past eras when arcane magic worked (wands, potions, scrolls).
Elemental domains for clerics would probably be more common, unless you barred all cleric domain spells that otherwise are arcane only.
I would personally allow classes like the Adept (a divine class) to retain full use of its spell-list, so they could be 'pretend' wizards.
In general, outside of domains, about the only major categories severely restricted are:[list] Teleportation,
Planar Binding (getting the outsider *you* want, vs. deity choice),
Beneficial Polymorph spells,
Most Illusions,
Specialized Divinations (clairvoyance, arcane eye, true strike),
Lots of Evocation and Necromancy, but not all
What LazarX said; most of the setting is trying very hard to pretend all this magic isn't really happening. Society is mostly medieval, curiously so in fact; Golarion's been stuck in medieval stasis for thousands of years. I mean, a very generous historian will give you the European middle ages as lasting about 300-1800; Golarion's been there for about five thousand years.
I think divine magic might actually have a much higher impact on society. Healing magic has a huge impact on the lives of ordinary people. Resurrecting magic has enormous implications for politics, such as royal succession.
Ascalaphus wrote: What LazarX said; most of the setting is trying very hard to pretend all this magic isn't really happening. Society is mostly medieval, curiously so in fact; Golarion's been stuck in medieval stasis for thousands of years. I mean, a very generous historian will give you the European middle ages as lasting about 300-1800; Golarion's been there for about five thousand years.
I think divine magic might actually have a much higher impact on society. Healing magic has a huge impact on the lives of ordinary people. Resurrecting magic has enormous implications for politics, such as royal succession.
And a world where the only way to get magic is to practice a religion means there is little room for secularism. In the Magic = technology dynamic the only sources of power are the few places that dip their toes in the renaissance and religious groups. This would probably lead to more holy wars and inquisitions, since religions would gravitate towards controlling everything and would not want opposition or upstarts having the power to threaten their hegemony.
As for the spell listings, the main problem is that divine vs. arcane has a pretty heavy crossover. There are several arcane healers now and clerics have a lot of domains.
Of course when you mention Golarion's medieval stasis you delineate the general problem with magic and metagame, Resurrection should have ALREADY altered succession and punched politics in the face, and that's just for starters.
Also, to be honest, wizards have more in the way of spells that are useful outside of combat. I mean they don't have the cure and restore spells, but things like haste, fabricate, permanency, enlarge person; wizards seem to have more stuff that people would find useful in work and life. Clerics have better combat buffs, but nobody cares in peacetime. Clerics have better healing, but life is cheap and peasants are replaceable. Obviously that last one isn't very egalitarian, but that's a different paradigm. Also, a cleric can get just about any spell on the wizard list if he finds the right domain, so "wizards have an edge" can certainly be overcome.
But when I enjoy my little "Simcity: Pathfinder" mental exercises I find that the main force is item creation feats. The greatest, most mythic wizard alive can still only move a few tons of rock in a day. A teleportation network and a few constructs can move thousands. Like the real world and technology, it's all about tools you can keep using and the ability to get lots of people to work on the same project with minimal training. Industrialization was as much about teaching masses of people to read directions and do a wide variety of simple and standardized tasks (rather than be lifetime-trained artisans of one particular complex task) as it was harnessing steam power.
Wizards have the edge here, since they get bonus feats and a higher int (spellcraft) but clerics can catch up when it comes to it, and some of the best toys (demiplanes, enslaved outsiders, divination magic) are as good or better for Clerics.
When you wanna make constructs, the cleric spell list is really quite good. Wizards lack some of the key spells like Animate Object. Not insurmountable, but it does give the clerics an edge. Also, clerics knowing all the spells on their list also helps them with creating items.
Obviously wizard magic is powerful and should radically change society. I just think clerical magic would change it even more. It's hard to ignore people who can raise you from the dead and who have insider knowledge about the ultimate fate of your soul. Take the power that the Church had in our history and multiply that because they can easily prove what they're preaching.
These are absolutely some fantastic comments and insights guys, you've given me a lot to think about, especially how Golarion seems to not have acknowledged magic. I don't know how common wizards/magic are meant to be in Golarion (pretty common considering you can buy spellcasting), but you'd figure every farmland would have a druid just for plant growth, employed either by the government or by a farmers group to go around and cast it on the acres and acres of farmland.
I never even considered a Church resurrecting, say, Napoleon after their death, you would think every ruler would praise and shower the Church just so they could get immortal reign.
Ascalaphus wrote: When you wanna make constructs, the cleric spell list is really quite good. Wizards lack some of the key spells like Animate Object. Not insurmountable, but it does give the clerics an edge. Also, clerics knowing all the spells on their list also helps them with creating items.
Obviously wizard magic is powerful and should radically change society. I just think clerical magic would change it even more. It's hard to ignore people who can raise you from the dead and who have insider knowledge about the ultimate fate of your soul. Take the power that the Church had in our history and multiply that because they can easily prove what they're preaching.
No doubt, clerics would never be ignored. But in terms of permanent magic I was thinking of Permanency and Teleport Circle as the two biggies a cleric has trouble with.
"Insider info" is less relevant, since we already have that (as long as you believe) here IRL, and the fluff text is less clear on how useful or clear post-mortem witness testimony is, and we actually have those TOO, (again, if you believe).
Resurrection is harder to track, since the dead coming back to life only matters on a macro scale if the person matters. If Napoleon had been brought back, for example, he'd still be living in exile and possibly getting dosed with arsenic. If Alexander the Great had been magically cured/regenerated before he died of some swamp fever he'd still be a living god conquering everything he laid eyes on, or just as easily he'd get himself killed again because he was always leading from the front and starting to get old enough feel it. Anyone less important than the rulers and lords would be too cheap of a life to bring back in the first place.
Also, resurrection isn't immortality, that's a 20th level feat. So we don't have to worry about the grim specter of an undying tyrant-class.oh wait we have undeath, bring on the necrocracy and the horror of knowing you'll never advance socially because your "betters" will never die and leave you to inherit. I'm told the movie "In Time" explores the social ramifications of monetized immortality, it's not pretty.
But there's no doubt they'd ALL be beholden to the ecclesiarchy or whatever religion kept picking them up when they fell. The church would be the state in rapid order (because why settle for ruling a king when you can BE king?) and once theocracy was established, expensive healing would only happen for the rich and powerful.
Really, it would probably retard social growth as things like the Mask of the Red Death would no longer be an issue, disease curing would be one more thing you could buy to keep yourself apart from the plebs.
Then there's stuff we still argue historically. What is more important to a strong nation: Railroads (teleportation) or Tanks (Animated Objects)? One makes you powerful on the battlefield, one makes interlocked industries happen. How big a deal to population growth is medicine vs. food production? How much of the gun's military paradigm-shift was its power and how much was the simplicity of its use in the hands of otherwise-untrained conscripts? Archers were powerful, but archers took years to train while gunners took months.
And when you can replace your illiterate conscripts with mindless undead, do you just win?
All of the above is why I don't chide Paizo too much for its Medieval Stasis. When you can rationalize lots of different cultural reactions to a thing, the question becomes what reaction you WANT for storytelling reasons.
And as long as we're asking the question, "what happens in a world where arcane magic is denied?" One of the answers is, "in the spiritual arms race between deities, gods start granting new spells to their clerics."
Maybe clerics get fireball, the better to burn the heathens.
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