Empiricist Investigator - Sleepless Detective

[zeroiris]

If i have Ceaseless Observation (Ex) from Empiricist:

An empiricist's ability to notice the minutiae of almost everything that happens around him allows him to make shrewd and insightful calculations about people and even inanimate objects. At 2nd level, an empiricist uses his Intelligence modifier instead of the skill's typical ability for all Disable Device, Perception, Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device checks. He can also use his Intelligence modifier instead of Charisma on any Diplomacy checks made to gather information.

and Canny Sleuth (Ex) from Sleepless Detective:

A Sleepless detective adds her Intelligence bonus (if any) on all Perception and Sense Motive checks, as well as on Diplomacy checks made to gather information, in addition to adding her Wisdom or Charisma modifier as normal.

Do i effectively get double my int mod on perception, sense motive, and Diplomacy checks to gather information?

[Zwordsman]

You7 should in fact. One replaces the modifier, the other adds.

But yeah one replaces wis for the skills, the other just adds also to it

So yeah should be double dip awesome.. thats an epic thing to note.

That could very well be worth some loss of studied combat

[Chris O'Reilly]

A developer has clarified that you wouldn't. He said using weapon finesse (which replaces the ability score) and fury's fall (which adds the ability score) dont stack and the situation is pretty much the same. The post is from a while ago but I dont know that its been overruled.

[Zwordsman]

I thought that post was their opinion. Has it actually been put into the FAQ and become official?
I can't remember persay, but I thought that was just them saying it.
I'll look round for it.
EDIT: I did find it, it's James Jacobs, who himself has said he doesn't make rules, so it's just his thoughts (effective thoughts, but just thoughts) . I'll keep looking for faq kinda thing on it though.

Reason I ask is because those abilities should stack, they do not do the same thing in my opinion. both are solid calculation s one using modifier the adding a bonus to it.

Table: Skill Check Bonuses
Skill Skill Check is Equal To*
Untrained 1d20 + ability modifier + racial modifier
Trained 1d20 + skill ranks + ability modifier + racial modifier
Trained Class Skill 1d20 + skill ranks + ability modifier + racial modifier + 3
* Armor check penalty applies to all Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks.

Under normal skills it adds modifier, not your bonus. So it's not a bonus.

Under sleepless detective
Sleepless detective adds her Intelligence bonus (if any) on all Perception and Sense Motive checks, as well as on Diplomacy checks made to gather information, in addition to adding her Wisdom or Charisma modifier as normal.

This gives you a the Intelligence bonus

now Emph Investigator
At 2nd level, an empiricist uses his Intelligence modifier instead of the skill's typical ability

This replaces the modifier used in the base calculations.

So SD gives you a bonus, and Invest replaces the modifier in the base number. So no stacking issues.

So the net effect should be basically twice your Int's +# Score IF positive. because you can still pick these class skills up, and if your int is a 7, your modifier is a -1, but your bonus is 0. Even with that class ability you won't add the negative-because it's not a bonus, that is a penalty.

terminology I find would be good to note:
"ability modifier" the number (negative or positive, doesn't matter) resultant of your attributes. (Exact quote: The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some numbers that aren't die rolls)
then, also "A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty."
So modifier, and bonus and penalty are all different things in pathfinder and equations.

[Forty2]

(I cast Raise thread)

I guess the real question is: does it count it as an untyped bonus or not.

You can do similar double-dipping with Monk/Spiritualist 4 (add Wis to AC twice), but since Whispering Spirits specifically lists its bonus as an Insight bonus to AC equal to your Wisdom, its a bit clearer.

My gut says that no, you can't double-dip Int with the Empiricist/Sleepless combo, since it doesn't give you any type of bonus, simply to add your Int to those skills. So a Trained Perception would read like Ranks + (Int+Wis) + 3 + Other Modifiers, as opposed to listing Int with the modifiers. And since you can't count ability modifiers twice in that section, it (unfortunately) doesn't stack.

Issues like these definitely need an official FAQ, though.