Would swashbucklers with a bite attack get precise strike damage with a bite attack? I don't see anything that stops it. Natural weapons are considered light weapons as clarified by Paizo design team and it doesn't break any 'hand' rules (they are not using TWF, and they are not using the hand as a weapon).
Would make races that bite extremely strong swashbucklers. Also makes Eldtritch Heritage for the Serpentine bloodline quite interesting as well. (Eldritch hertitage for a bloodline that doesn't increase strength? Heresy!).
Precise Strike states "though not natural weapon attacks". So no.
Ah, missed that line. Thanks.
You could use a bite with Swashbuckler if you had Feral Combat Training.
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You could use a bite with Swashbuckler if you had Feral Combat Training.
Of course, you realize that you'd have to make some kind of pun about biting every time you attacked, right? Could you handle that level of responsibility?
You could use a bite with Swashbuckler if you had Feral Combat Training.
Does this work? Feral Combat Training says:
Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Precise Strike doesn't augment an unarmed strike, so Feral Combat Training would not seem to apply.
It's also questionable whether there's any way to possibly get this to work, because Precise Strike explicitly says
a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike
precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee
weapon (though not natural weapon attacks), adding
her swashbuckler level to the damage dealt.
This would seem to prohibit natural weapon attacks from ever benefiting from Precise Strike damage, even if you tried to do something else clever.
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I don't think it'll work.. which his too bad.
I would have utterly loved to somehow get a tail with a sting attack and poison. and just use that with precise strike always.
You would need to take a lvl of monk, but it works just fine. See Monk Unarmed Strike
"Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
Usually a monk's unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but he can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on his attack roll. He has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."
-Feral Combat training allows natural weapons to be enhanced by Monk Unarmed Strikes
-Monk Unarmed Strikes behave as both manufactured weapons and natural weapons
-Swashbuckler precise strike works with manufactured light weapons.
and Monk Unarmed Strikes count as light weapons, as do natural attacks enhanced by Feral Combat when used by monks.
FCT combat alone wouldn't work for the reasons you listed.
A piercing monk attack would work.
You can get a piercing monk Unarmed Strike with a style like boar attack,
or a natural attack enhanced by FCT.
FCT makes natural work like monk Unarmed Strike: Agreed?
Monk Unarmed Strike that acquires piercing would work with Precise Strike: Agreed?
Therefore, a bite with feral combat training, when utilized by a monk, could use swashbuckler precise strike.
A GM may rule that when used as an extra attack, in addition to iterative attacks, i.e. like a natural attack, that Precise Strike can't be added. However when a bite with FCT, is used in a flurry, like any other monk weapon, it can definitely add Precise Strike to damage.
A GM may not allow it, but monk unarmed strike can be used with precise strike if it does piercing damage.
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There isn't a rule that damage dealt actually changes the weapon type. SO it's a total grey area. Several threads have been started about this.
This would be pretty solid for a strength based swash, I think. Since it's the only weapon you're attacking with you get 1.5 STR on the attack. Hamatulatsu Master can take Weapon Focus as a bonus feat so with that archetype you can get started on the FCT fun at level 1 and then go straight into Daring Champion afterwards. You might want to go 2 into Monk though; Hama stacks with Iron Mountain, so if you take Dodge as your second bonus feat you'll get +2 AC and Toughness for one more level without Precise Strike. Not a bad trade, I think.
@graystone: considering the fact that the devs went into the swash thread and said "hey, if you take Snake Style you can totally use your unarmed strikes as a swashbuckler!" I think we can safely assume that it works.
@graystone: considering the fact that the devs went into the swash thread and said "hey, if you take Snake Style you can totally use your unarmed strikes as a swashbuckler!" I think we can safely assume that it works.
They've gone to great lengths to say that thread posts AREN'T official. Until it's actually in an FAQ, it's going to sit in limbo as a grey zone rule. Even if some Dev's think it works, there is no way to figure out if that'll translate into an actual ruling or not.
For the record, I'm good with it going either way. I'd just prefer to get an actual FAQ before I build a character around it.
A GM may not allow it, but monk unarmed strike can be used with precise strike if it does piercing damage.Oh that detail is a totally works by raw. Happy and clear
Unarmed are light and bashing, with it becoming pierce totally fits precise strike. I totally want to make a monk swash, with monastic legacy
...and Monk Unarmed Strike turns regular unarmed attacks and natural attacks into attacks that can act as EITHER OR THE OTHER. This is RAW
FCT lets monks turn a natural attack into a Monk Unarmed Strike. This is RAW and RAI.
Spells, effects and feats, including precise strike, can be added to Monk Unarmed Strikes. This is RAW and RAI.
That means a FCT bite that has been upgraded by Monk Unarmed Strike can use precise strike. This is also RAW. We will need to see if it is also RAI.
It doesn't make them work like unarmed strike. It makes things that apply to unarmed strikes apply to natural attacks. It still doesn't change a natural attack to an unarmed strike. It's like a rider effect on the natural attack.
Thats the problem. FCT allows you to add effects that work on unarmed but does not change a natural attack into a non natural attack.
yeah, precise strike would work on unarmed. but it still specifies no natural attacks..I could see a gm allowing it, but the way I'm reading RAW the specific on precise strike, and the wording on FCT doesn't allow it.
FCT "You can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike"
but your still applying it to a natural attack, which is specifically prohibited by precise strike.
Actually it does. The Monk's Unarmed Strike ability (as opposed to a regular unarmed attacks) lists damage by level and includes the verbiage about counting as both natural and manufactured weapons.
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
The FAQ explicitly says that the damage is an effect that modifies unarmed strikes and hence modifies FCT natural attacks. It follows that the rest of the ability is also an effect that modifies unarmed attacks. Between FCT (bite) and Unarmed Strike you have a light weapon that does piercing damage and so qualifies for Precise Strike. Unless you want to argue that Precise Strike is not an effect that enhances or improves (qualifying) weapons.
FCT must be combined with either Monk or Brawler levels for it to work. Without that Unarmed Strike ability of those classes those GM's would be correct. But the interaction of FCT and US allows the natural weapon to be treated as a manufactured weapon for the effect of the Precise Strike ability, just like FCT and US allows a natural weapon to be the target of a Magic Weapon Spell.
Pre FAQ on FCT I would have agreed with the naysayers. I did not think that the natural weapon would get a Monk's US improved damage. Bus since it does I cannot see how the natural weapon does not get the whole US ability. So if a Monk's unarmed strike can benefit from the effect then so can a Monk's FCT natural weapon.
Specific trumps general. Which is the more specific, a blanket rule for an ability, or the interaction of 3 feats and 2 class abilities?
I am not saying it should be allowed, I am saying that as of the FCT FAQ it is RAW, and disallowing it is the house rule.
It's sort of a similar situation to how the Titan Mauler interacts with the Swash. Normally you can never Precise Strike with a 2-handed weapon; with 2 into Titan Mauler you treat 2-handed weapons as 1-handed weapons, meaning you can use it with all Swash abilities.
Normally, you can never use a natural attack with Swash abilities, but FCT allows you to use that natural attack with anything that augments unarmed strikes, which precise strike would assuming that your UAS deals piercing damage.
Zordsman, I see where your disconnect is, however the GM's you talked to are missing the point that a monk with access to FCT'd natural weapons can use them as either:
- Natural weapons that are extra attacks on top of iterative attacks
OR
- Monk Unarmed Strikes
When used as Monk Unarmed Strikes, a natural weapon can gain all the benefits of a light, 1h weapon. Your GM's may disagree and decide to house rule that it doesn't work that way. However RAW says that FCT'd MUS are more than just natural attacks.
The only thing in question is would the Monk with FCT be able to use precise strike with the natural attack if the natural attack is used on top on of an iterative attack. I.E. used as a natural attack instead of a Monk Unarmed Strike. That is the only grey area.
Zordsman, I see where your disconnect is, however the GM's you talked to are missing the point that a monk with access to FCT'd natural weapons can use them as either:
- Natural weapons that are extra attacks on top of iterative attacks
OR
- Monk Unarmed StrikesWhen used as Monk Unarmed Strikes, a natural weapon can gain all the benefits of a light, 1h weapon. Your GM's may disagree and decide to house rule that it doesn't work that way. However RAW says that FCT'd MUS are more than just natural attacks.
The only thing in question is would the Monk with FCT be able to use precise strike with the natural attack if the natural attack is used on top on of an iterative attack. I.E. used as a natural attack instead of a Monk Unarmed Strike. That is the only grey area.
Well, not completely as Monk Unarmed Strikes. The ONLY way to get iteratives with natural attacks is Flurry of Blows. You cannot make a regular full attack with natural weapons, nor can you use a natural weapon as an off hand weapon via TWF, even with FCT.
I didn't say "get iteratives with natural attacks." I said use natural attack 'on top of an iterative attack.' That is the way natural attacks usually work, as additional attacks on top of a players iterative attacks.
The only grey area with PS and NA is if you can use precise strike damage with the natural attack when it's being used as a natural attack, after the iterative attacks are done. I think that it can't be done, because it is being used as a natural attack, not a Monk Unarmed Strike.
Catfolk Claw Blades count as manufactured light weapons, I think.
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Catfolk Claw Blades count as manufactured light weapons, I think.They also sell some special claw cover weapons too.
Would have to look it up since I don't have it memorized.. but I think it allowed you to add ehancment to it while still counting as natural attack. but it's still a weapon I think. so that might work
That's actually exactly what he is referencing.
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."I think a lot of people here are misreading that line...
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon.
a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon (though not natural weapon attacks), adding her swashbuckler level to the damage dealt.Thus, Precise Strike can't be used with unarmed strikes.
The fact that a monk's unarmed strike is also treated as a manufactured weapon is moot. Because it's also treated as a natural weapon, it gets excluded.
I briefly thought that way, but now I'm not so sure.
Here's the ability description with more context:
At 3rd level, while she has at least 1 panache point, a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon (though not natural weapon attacks)
One interpretation of this is "At 3rd level, a Swashbuckler does not gain the ability to strike precisely with natural weapon attacks" which does not mean it is impossible for the Swashbuckler to pick up the ability some other way. Another interpretation would be that it is impossible to ever use Precise Strike with natural weapons.
I think the stricter RAW reading would be the first one, that the Swashbuckler doesn't by default get to use Precise Strike with natural weapons but could possibly find some way to do it, because it never explicitly says you cannot use Precise Strike with a natural weapon, it only says you do not gain that ability at 3rd level.
Natural attacks through the feat allowed to be used as unarmed strikes.
only problem i see is that yes they count as manufactured weapons but the sentence doesnt say OR, it states AND natural weapons. So it could be seen since its counting as both at same time, it becomes a nice lil problem. Itgets rejected because its still counted as a natural attack and it gets accepted because its counted as a manufactured weapon. It kinda cancels each other out since u dont get to chose because they said AND and didnt say OR whicb would allow u to chose.
Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.Precise Strike is not a feat with Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, nor does it augment unarmed strikes (since they count as natural weapons, as explained previously).
Thus, FCT simply has no impact on Precise Strike, one way or the other.
Can Magic Weapon be cast on an unarmed strike?
No, an unarmed strike is a natural weapon.Unless it has the Unarmed Strike ability.
To disallow Precise Strike from working on a Monk's natural weapon with FCT is to disallow casting Magic Weapon on a Monk's natural weapon with FCT. Both use the exact same rules to apply a normally forbidden effect. And since casting Magic Weapon on a Monk's natural weapon (unarmed strike) is explicitly allowed we know wich interpretation is correct RAW.
The only way to table variation is deliberately misinterpreting what is written.
Natural attacks are not normally eligible to be affected by certain effects (e.g. Magic Weapon spell).
Certain abilities can make natural attacks be counted as a valid target for certain effects (e.g. Unarmed Strike ability).
Assuming Monk/Brawler levels, any effect you can put on a Monk/Brawler's unarmed strike can be put on a FCT natural weapon. It is there in black and white and has an example of how it works.