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During today's playing session, the Sorcerer did want to use Shadow Conjuration, Greater to cast Acidic Spray, which has a costly material component (a vial of acid worth 10 gp).
My ruling was that he needs to have the specific components, as the spells say that you are mimicking another spell.
Limited Wish has that requirement, but it is written in the text of the spell, while Shadow Conjuration doesn't have it.
What do you think?
I missed a relevant piece of the rules?
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Not intended as a “gotcha”, this is a genuine question with no “right” answer.
If the players use shadow conjuration as summon monster is it still a standard action? Or does it become a one-round cast?
I have always interpreted shadow conjuration as not needing components or foci because it is making a “quasi-real” version of the spell. Textually, the “effect” section has a whole bunch of “see text” which basically says “same as the duplicated spell.” But the “casting” section (casting time and components) is fixed regardless of what spell you are duplicating.
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You are ignoring pedantic RAW (rather uncharacteristic for you) and the existing Game Balance in the spell.
What I use in a home game and my answers on RAW in the Rule Forum are two very different beasts.
I asked because, in this instance, I am not convinced of the RAW of my interpretation of the rules.
There is the added problem that I don't like shadow conjuration, greater, in the hand of a sorcerer, so I am biased. A sorcerer gets something like access to sixty spells by learning one. Plenty aren't particularly useful, but it is a big injection of versatility.
The chance of making the will save is almost meaningless in this scenario; the targets were a bunch of Graveknights, and they would have saved only with a nat 20, or a roll of 18+ if aware it was an illusion, and still would have received 60% of the rolled damage (Undead aren't immune to Illusions unless they are mind-affecting).
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Shadow conjuration can mimic a lot of spells, but the result is weaker than the spells it is mimicking. In addition to allowing a save to reduce the effect shadow conjuration also has overcome any spell resistance the target has even if the spell being mimicked does not. The fact that the targets of the spell in this encounter have a difficult time making the spell is irrelevant.
Limited Wish specifies it is duplicating a spell. Shadow Conjuration specifies it is mimicking the spell. That is a subtle difference but is still different. With limited wish you are actually casting the other spell, with shadow conjuration you are casting an illusion that works similar to the other spell.
Using limited wish to cast acid spray does not in fact require you to provide the material component. Limited wish only requires you to provide that cost more than 1,000 gp. Since the material component of acid spray is below that cost, you do not have to provide the material component.
The fact that other spells that can duplicate or mimic other spells specifically call out that material components need to be provided seems to make that the exception not the rule.
All of this seems to indicate that shadow conjuration does not require you to provide any material component.
I'm a bit with Diego on the whole no one spell to rule (them all) 60 others for a sorcerer. it might be raw that he doesn't need a material, but if i have a player abusing this I would be inclined to apply the raw of: (magic chapter, illusion school)" a character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw." in any way possible. wether it's knowledgeable (spellcraft) enemy rolling enough to identify the shadow conjuration spell as it's being cast and auto save vs it, as well as any character who have the said mimiced spell noticing that no material was used to cast it, or if the action to cast it differ in case of summoning (these last two will not be auto save, but will give +4 to the save as per being pointed out that something is wrong)
I'm a bit with Diego on the whole no one spell to rule (them all) 60 others for a sorcerer. it might be raw that he doesn't need a material, but if i have a player abusing this I would be inclined to apply the raw of: (magic chapter, illusion school)" a character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw." in any way possible.
Fortunately the rules explicitly say that Shadow spells deal real damage and have real effects, so there can be no such proof whatsoever:
Shadow
Source PRPG Core Rulebook
Definition Type Subschool
A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real.
So no, the rules provide no cover for this hostile attitude towards shadow spells.
truly fortunately they are still under illusion school rules, which I stated above, even if they can deal damage. they can be still be saved against, i never said: 'null the entire spell effect', i said they get auto save, which is per the illusion school rules. In some cases, shadow magic included, this might mean less damage in some it will mean total nullification. each spell has it's own rules as to how a save works, but ALL illusion magic have the rule that a target that has a proof that the spell is an illusion need no saving throw to save against it (unless specifically called out in a spell, as per general vs specific).
as for 'no proof what so ever', if you know the target is casting 'greater shadow conjuration' (as per a successful spellcraft check to identify a spell being cast), then you know he casts an illusion. what more proof do you need?
general illusion school magic rule: if you know it's an illusion, you don't need to roll to save , you automatically save. what a save does depend on each spell information.
there might be a specific spell that bypass this rule, but that would be under specific vs general.
To be able to cast greater shadow conjuration a sorcerer has to be at least 14th level. The material component is only 10 GP. At that level the cost is not even worth mentioning. Since it is not a matter of cost this is obviously an attempt by the GM to weaken the spell.
If Diego Rossi does not like the spell, he should simply ban the spells, instead trying to twist the rules to nerf the spell.
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To be able to cast greater shadow conjuration a sorcerer has to be at least 14th level. The material component is only 10 GP. At that level the cost is not even worth mentioning. Since it is not a matter of cost this is obviously an attempt by the GM to weaken the spell.
10 gp is more than what is allowed by Eskew materials, or for free by a spell pouch, so it is a component that should be tracked, as all costly components.
It is a vial, so an ounce of liquid (vial), 1/16 of a pound. You can't truck around an infinite number of them, and you must remember to replenish them after you use them.
That said, the consensus is that my ruling was wrong, and I agree.
If Diego Rossi does not like the spell, he should simply ban the spells, instead trying to twist the rules to nerf the spell.
Maybe in a future campaign.
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About the only time I really have issues with shadow conjuration is when its used to create a 'negative' or non-material thing. For instance, a shadow conjured create pit or something. A pit may be an 'object', but it's really a lack of something in the space. Despite being 20% real... it's likely (GM's call) not really only 20% as deep as a 'real' pit. And someone falling in shouldn't take 20% less damage... since falling isn't part of the spell... it's falling. Certainly two people falling into it wouldn't have one fail and fall 60 feet down and the other stop 20% down because they pass. So I find that use to be a bit overpowered than intended, but it's one spell (yes,create pit is a line of spells, but the other pits have actual, direct damaging effects that would be reduced by 20% on a save, but not the baseline falling part).
Interesting example.
I would say that someone disbelieving a pit created by shadow conjuration will fall in it only 20% of the time, but if he falls, it will take the full damage.
You are right, I just didn't want to derail the thread further pointing that out.
Class spell list isn't the same as known spells and a sorcerer could use spell trigger and completion items for spells on his class list even if he doesn't know them. He might need to decifer a scroll with unkowen spell or use read magic before using it. But the rest shouldn't be a problem as long as he know how to activate the items (command words for wands etc.).
Hack if I'm not wrong a ranger or paladin can use wands with spells from their class list even before they get the spell casting ability at level 4.
truly fortunately they are still under illusion school rules, which I stated above, even if they can deal damage. they can be still be saved against, i never said: 'null the entire spell effect', i said they get auto save, which is per the illusion school rules. In some cases, shadow magic included, this might mean less damage in some it will mean total nullification. each spell has it's own rules as to how a save works, but ALL illusion magic have the rule that a target that has a proof that the spell is an illusion need no saving throw to save against it (unless specifically called out in a spell, as per general vs specific).
as for 'no proof what so ever', if you know the target is casting 'greater shadow conjuration' (as per a successful spellcraft check to identify a spell being cast), then you know he casts an illusion. what more proof do you need?
general illusion school magic rule: if you know it's an illusion, you don't need to roll to save , you automatically save.
No, this is absolutely against the rules.
Specific beats General.
Shadow is a subschool of the Illusion school, and thus more specific.
You use the rules of the Illusion school only up to the point where the Shadow subschool says something different.
You only get the saves that the spell says it does, usually a Will save and then any additional saves by the mimicked spell itself. You do not automatically save without a roll just because it is an illusion (shadow) spell.
Everything else is a flat out lie, and violates the rules both in letter and in spirit.
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truly fortunately they are still under illusion school rules, which I stated above, even if they can deal damage. they can be still be saved against, i never said: 'null the entire spell effect', i said they get auto save, which is per the illusion school rules. In some cases, shadow magic included, this might mean less damage in some it will mean total nullification. each spell has it's own rules as to how a save works, but ALL illusion magic have the rule that a target that has a proof that the spell is an illusion need no saving throw to save against it (unless specifically called out in a spell, as per general vs specific).
as for 'no proof what so ever', if you know the target is casting 'greater shadow conjuration' (as per a successful spellcraft check to identify a spell being cast), then you know he casts an illusion. what more proof do you need?
general illusion school magic rule: if you know it's an illusion, you don't need to roll to save , you automatically save.
No, this is absolutely against the rules.
Specific beats General.
Shadow is a subschool of the Illusion school, and thus more specific.
You use the rules of the Illusion school only up to the point where the Shadow subschool says something different.
You only get the saves that the spell says it does, usually a Will save and then any additional saves by the mimicked spell itself. You do not automatically save without a roll just because it is an illusion (shadow) spell.
Everything else is a flat out lie, and violates the rules both in letter and in spirit.
Maybe you need to re-read the Illusion school rules: Illusion
At the end of the paragraph, so it applies to all the subschools above:
Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief ): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw.
If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
Making a spellcasting skill check and recognizing the spell that was cast as Shadow Conjuration is clear proof that the spell is an illusion, with no need for a save.
The person making the skill check will still receive the percentage of damage appropriate for the kind of shadow spell cast, but not full damage.
truly fortunately they are still under illusion school rules, which I stated above, even if they can deal damage. they can be still be saved against, i never said: 'null the entire spell effect', i said they get auto save, which is per the illusion school rules. In some cases, shadow magic included, this might mean less damage in some it will mean total nullification. each spell has it's own rules as to how a save works, but ALL illusion magic have the rule that a target that has a proof that the spell is an illusion need no saving throw to save against it (unless specifically called out in a spell, as per general vs specific).
as for 'no proof what so ever', if you know the target is casting 'greater shadow conjuration' (as per a successful spellcraft check to identify a spell being cast), then you know he casts an illusion. what more proof do you need?
general illusion school magic rule: if you know it's an illusion, you don't need to roll to save , you automatically save.
No, this is absolutely against the rules.
Specific beats General.
Shadow is a subschool of the Illusion school, and thus more specific.
You use the rules of the Illusion school only up to the point where the Shadow subschool says something different.
You only get the saves that the spell says it does, usually a Will save and then any additional saves by the mimicked spell itself. You do not automatically save without a roll just because it is an illusion (shadow) spell.
Everything else is a flat out lie, and violates the rules both in letter and in spirit.
Adding up to what Diago already explained which is enough on it's own. I would also like to point out that for a specific rule to change the general rule it..well.. need to be talking about the general rule!
Care to point me to the specific rule in sub school shadow that say that one can't disbealive the illusion or auto save if he has proof of it?
shadow school has specific rules as to how a save or fail works, it doesn't in fact change what also count as a save, all it does is talk about what happen when someone fail or make save. so there is no specific rulling in regards to the rule about how one can auto save.
to paint it in a way you can understand, take making the save or failing as forks in a road, the subschool of shadow magic might tell you what happen when you turn left or right. the general rule of the illusion spells on the other hand say that if you have a map (proof) you can always chose to the right path and automatically find it. the specific rule about what happen on the twist in the road has nothing to say about the ability to take the right path, only what happens after you do so.
Be kind and know what your'e are talking about before calling someone else a liar, going into personal insults when debating is low enough, doing so while being completely wrong is just sad.
Maybe you need to re-read the Illusion school rules: Illusion
Can you read properly though? If so, then spotting the difference in between your claim and the rules should be easy:
A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw.
Making a spellcasting skill check and recognizing the spell that was cast as Shadow Conjuration is clear proof that the spell is an illusion
It's a blatant category error.
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Maybe you need to re-read the Illusion school rules: IllusionCan you read properly though? If so, then spotting the difference in between your claim and the rules should be easy:
A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw.Making a spellcasting skill check and recognizing the spell that was cast as Shadow Conjuration is clear proof that the spell is an illusionIt's a blatant category error.
By your logic, that rule applies only to Illusion without any subschool.
As zza ni pointed out, you need a specific rule that says that it doesn't apply to a subschool, and there isn't one.
The shadow spells are really a whole pile of house rulings. I’m with the others on shadow spells not needing components, though exactly how 20% of the time or 20% effectiveness works is an interesting question. For example, the Pit spell from earlier. I’d have personally just made the pit 1/5th as deep instead of only catching them 20% of the time.
My personal suggestion is to keep a tab of notes as the GM for any house rulings you make on the shadow spells to keep the consistent.
I’d like to note that I personally dislike % chances, so I would likely house rule it to only working 1/5 turns. I do this with the Mesmerist bold stare that lets the Mesmerist cast mind affecting spells on mindless creatures, only allowing the effect to work every other turn. This removes some of the drama from a scene, but does make things more predictable and I think it makes things feel better to play.
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I'm a huge fan of the shadow spells. I think having them on hand encourages players to come up with clever solutions on the fly instead of "uh, fireball again."
They are incredibly versatile, but they come with a huge list of caveats that keep them from being too powerful.
-Targets get a will save for 20% effect in addition to any other save usually allowed.
-Anyone with spellcraft can identify the spell being cast as shadow (an illusion), which means they automatically have only the 20% effect.
-Objects automatically succeed on the will save so if, for example, you use shadow evocation to simulate daylight, there is an 80% chance that nothing happens.