So the Swashbuckler class in the ACG has left many of us unimpressed, uninspired, and bitter. For many, it doesn't deliver in the areas people feel it should, and there has been much discussion on what it should have and be able to do. Yet, no one has come forth to try and fix it. I would like to get some input from the Pathfinder community to revise this class into what they feel is a Swashbuckler worthy of being played at the table.
Now I for one do like the class as is, and I have plenty of 3rd party content to make this class amazing, but many in the community (I as well) feel that a class should be good without needing to give up character advancement choices to do complete their intended task. For those of you who don't know me or haven't seen some of the projects that I have created/worked on in the past, I created The Armored Engineer base class a few years ago, I helped compile and created content for the Pathfinder community's Sorcerer Aid Project: Sigils & Talents, I created the Primal Magic Sorcerer archetype, and most recently I finished The Lost Arts which is a conglomeration of new mechanical options for the Pathfinder rpg. The path in which I would like to take is one similar to a Gunslinger rewrite that Christopher Delvo created and posted a year or so ago which I love since I'm not a fan of how the original gunslinger class came out to be. I understand that regardless of what we revise, some people won't use it or can't (for PFS), but I would like to do this anyways. Any advice/thoughts people have on this are greatly appreciated so that we can come up with a Swashbuckler class everyone (for the most part) will be happy with.
So let's get started. What are some of the changes you would like to see made to this class to help it accomplish its intended purpose?
Give them a good fort save, remove the extra panache feat, give them divine grace, give them dex to melee damage and CMB out of the box, change precise strike to deal standard, regular critting damage, replace the majority of the deeds entirely, and while you're at it don't go so crazy about everything taking a swift action.
Doing it as an archetype, I'd probably really tie them to a severely limited weapon set, and drop even light armor proficiency to balance it out.
I like changing precise strike to deal standard damage, but would allowing it to be multiplied on a crit be a little too much? I'm also not sure about losing the light armor proficiency.
They need to lose light armor proficiency. Very powerful class as is.
I think the biggest thing is to look at Camillo, Agrippa,and Thibault.
Ideally they should be fast and mobile. I'd actually incorporate some of the Duelist into the swashbuckler myself.
Charmed life should at least be no-action and a few other things should be free actions, like the bleeding wound at 11.
Perhaps a Paunche deed to allow them to take a 10 foot step as swift action, provided the pass an acrobatics/balance check.
Perhaps things to allow them to do more attacks even when moving?
I think charmed life should be useable AFTER you rolled the save but before the result is determined.
Also, is there a way to actually get Dex to damage with piercing weapons? I know they made a feat for that with slashing.
They need to lose light armor proficiency. Very powerful class as is.
Archetypes are all about trade-offs, even when it seems like a class just needs a boost.
Also, you can still wear armor without being proficient, it just increases the armor check penalty. So, all that would happen here is people would be pushed towards padded cloth/leather/leaf armor, rather than a relatively bulky chain shirt. Which in turn would incentivize a high dex more, which weirdly enough is something the class doesn't really do out of the box.
As for how to add more mobility- Dodging panache could stand to scale up. A deed for changing directions in a charge saw a lot of discussion in the playtest. It fundamentally needs some ability tied to swinging around on ropes, lots of possible ways to handle that. Something for ignoring difficult terrain would be nice. There's ideas to lift from the Jabbing style feats and that one swash-like Investigator archetype too. Also something to be said for spending a point of panache to take an extra 5' step, with a once-per-round restriction.
They need to lose light armor proficiency. Very powerful class as is.Archetypes are all about trade-offs, even when it seems like a class just needs a boost.
Also, you can still wear armor without being proficient, it just increases the armor check penalty. So, all that would happen here is people would be pushed towards padded cloth/leather/leaf armor, rather than a relatively bulky chain shirt. Which in turn would incentivize a high dex more, which weirdly enough is something the class doesn't really do out of the box.
As for how to add more mobility- Dodging panache could stand to scale up. A deed for changing directions in a charge saw a lot of discussion in the playtest. It fundamentally needs some ability tied to swinging around on ropes, lots of possible ways to handle that. Something for ignoring difficult terrain would be nice. There's ideas to lift from the Jabbing style feats and that one swash-like Investigator archetype too. Also something to be said for spending a point of panache to take an extra 5' step, with a once-per-round restriction.
Thing is you never see a swachbuckler in a novel, movie, game, etc. Wearing armor of any sort. Just a shirt and some guts, and sometimes not even a shirt.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/M%C3%BChlberg_-_S% C3%A4belmensur.jpg/800px-M%C3%BChlberg_-_S%C3%A4belmensur.jpg
Swashbucklers dueling it out.
What you see in the movies and such isn't really "just a shirt."
Sometimes that shirt hides real armor under, like a chainshirt would. Sometimes its really fancy leather or studded leather armor. For example, Prince Humper drink's outfit right here, is actually a fairly light armor http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdhtanakBP1qflb9n.jpg
Or like westly, where you basically have plot armor.
Its why Chainmail bikinis work.
Let's actually act like game designers here and discuss what's actually wrong with the class before anyone goes all willy nilly suggesting/making changes. Has anyone here actually played any significant amount of time as a swashbuckler? Perhaps you can share some insights?
I would also like to point out that the entire theme of the swashbuckler is an active mobile combatant. In other words, the swashbuckler isn't just a bag of passive bonuses. The class demands the player make decisions and tactical maneuvers rather than charge the nearest baddie and full attack. As a result, I highly encourage suggestions that keep in this theme. In other words, no replacing charmed life with divine grace.
The problem is keeping with their mobility, they need more constants or no actions things and less of everything being swift.
Top address doesn't work Darche.
Ok, so so far, we are looking at the following and I need these broadened a bit.
1) Give them good Fort saves. If this is the case, should we even keep Charmed Life as an ability, or should we give them a blanket Charisma to saves? Another approach is to change Charmed Life to not requiring an action. Is that enough to keep the saves the same? Finally, if we decide to give them a good Fort save, should we give them an ability instead of Charmed Life to allow them to use Charisma instead of Wisdom for Will saves?
2) Light armor proficiency; keep it or lose it. I for one would like to keep it since losing it means we would have to make some sort of mechanic to give them a good ac boost to compensate (Charisma to AC maybe?). You have to remember, losing the armor means no enhancement bonuses or special properties, etc. Finally, the mechanic has to be good from the get go, not a +1 every four levels granting a +5 at 20th. This is ok for the dodge bonus they get since it goes on top of their armor, but this would not be good form for the class for their main AC.
3) Dex to damage, which goes in hand with their weapon proficiencies. Should we list specific items they are proficient with or should we keep it with martial? Should we also just give them an ability that gives dex to damage or leave it as the feat? If we leave it as the feat, we could put in that if a swashbuckler takes Slashing Grace, they can take it for any weapon they are proficient with, not just slashing weapons.
4) Two weapons; should they be able to keep their class abilities when using two weapons?
5) Precise Strike; should it change from precision damage to standard?
6) Deeds; what do you like, what don't you like, what should we remove altogether, what should we change to make it better, what do we need to add? I understand the swift action conundrum, and I will make sure we don't have this problem in the new version.
|
1. Make Charmed life a free action usable out of your turn, actually make all of inmidate/swiftaction abilities this way
2. Should keep light armor proficiency, no reason nor temathically nor for balance (higher dex is not higher AC), high dex swashbuckler wont be using armor anyway
3. Should get dex to damage at level 5 for one weapon, like the gunslinger, when using only one weapon
4. The two weapon option should be an archetype, and it should lose something important to balance
5. I think is ok as precision, combined with dex to damage it would be way to strong. It would be like permanent smite evil, actually more powerful
6. The deeds are pretty good BUT change the order of some. Mostly deed should be less and scale, for example
Evasive (Ex): At 15th level, when the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she gains the benefit of the evasion, uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge rogue class features. She uses her gunslinger level as her rogue level for improved uncanny dodge.
to
Evasive (Ex): At 5th level, when the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she gains the benefit of the evasion
At 10, uncanny dodge
At 15,improved uncanny dodge rogue class features.
She uses her gunslinger level as her rogue level for improved uncanny dodge.
If Two Weapon Fighting worked with Swashbucklers, I'd make it an archetype that allows both weapons to benefit from half of the Swashbuckler's precise strike. Otherwise, it might be too large of a damage boost.
Also I think that charisma to saves + having a good fortitude save should be incompatible. No blanket Charisma to saves unless the saves stay as they are.
Swashbucklers don't need some special extra edge to make two weapon fighting worth it. It's already worth it on its own. Two weapons=twice as many attacks=twice as many chances to crit=twice the panache inflow. That's huge. They also do plenty of damage. The only downside, besides weapon upgrade costs, is losing a third of your damage when you aren't full attacking, but any time they can't use their second weapon, precise strike kicks in, and handily compensates.
Also I think that charisma to saves + having a good fortitude save should be incompatible. No blanket Charisma to saves unless the saves stay as they are.
Why would that be? Pallys get good fort and will.
Precise Strike should be standard and multiplied on a crit. It's their replacement for the Two Handed Power Attack.
The swift actions are a problem and some abilities which use a swift should probably be using a free action.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also I think that charisma to saves + having a good fortitude save should be incompatible. No blanket Charisma to saves unless the saves stay as they are.Why would that be? Pallys get good fort and will.
The way I see it, Precise Strike + Swashbuckler Weapon Training can be used on more foes as a damage and attack boost than smite can. Smite is limited to evil while Precise Strike is limited by sneak attack immunity. Swashbuckler Weapon Training is never limited by anything.
Ok just had a thought. Some people have said keep Precise Strike as precision damage and others have said change it to standard. What if we left it as precision damage and added in that you can spend a panache point to gain the benefits of Precise Strike against a target who is immune to precision based damage for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier (basically bypassing the features that shut it down)? That way it's not too ridiculous and you have to spend a resource to do it but you have that option.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My basic suggestion is to replace Charmed Life with the following ability (also called Charmed Life):
Charmed Life: At 2nd level the Swashbuckler may add her Charisma modifier as a permanent bonus to one of the following options:
The Swashbuckler's Fortitude Save.
The Swashbuckler's Reflex Save.
The Swashbuckler's Will Save.
The Swashbuckler's Initiative.
All Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, and Swim checks that the Swashbuckler makes.
The Swashbuckler's combat maneuver bonus for one type of maneuver and her CMD to defend against that maneuver.
The number of attacks of opportunity the Swashbuckler can make per turn. This bonus stacks with Combat Reflexes.
At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the Swashbuckler may add their Charisma modifier to another one of the options presented.
The Mysterious Avenger archetype receives another instance of this ability at 4th level instead of 3 uses of the official version of Charmed Life. Racial Favored Class options that currently add +1/4 of a use of the official version of Charmed Life will instead add +1/6 of a new instance of this version of Charmed Life.
This version is actually really good, and I think solves most of the problems with the class all by itself.
The way I see it, Precise Strike + Swashbuckler Weapon Training can be used on more foes as a damage and attack boost than smite can. Smite is limited to evil while Precise Strike is limited by sneak attack immunity. Swashbuckler Weapon Training is never limited by anything.
Also I think that charisma to saves + having a good fortitude save should be incompatible. No blanket Charisma to saves unless the saves stay as they are.Why would that be? Pallys get good fort and will.
Actually, no. Precise strike and Swashbuckler weapon training is /very/ limited. By weapon in fact.
Disarm or Sunder their weapon, and any sort of damage bonus they have goes away. In fact, most of their class features go away.
And Burning Disarm easily does this to them as a level 1 cleric.
And comparing one damage increasing ability to two damage increasing abilities isn't quite right. Especially when Paladins have a whole slew of spells that increase their damage against things, like Divine favor or Deadly Juggernaught. And that spell list keeps growing.
Then of course Paladins have a whole lotta class features for living thing things, healing and a horse. A horse they can give the ability to smite evil.
My basic suggestion is to replace Charmed Life with the following ability (also called Charmed Life):
Charmed Life: At 2nd level the Swashbuckler may add her Charisma modifier as a permanent bonus to one of the following options:
The Swashbuckler's Fortitude Save.
The Swashbuckler's Reflex Save.
The Swashbuckler's Will Save.
The Swashbuckler's Initiative.
All Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, and Swim checks that the Swashbuckler makes.
The Swashbuckler's combat maneuver bonus for one type of maneuver and her CMD to defend against that maneuver.
The number of attacks of opportunity the Swashbuckler can make per turn. This bonus stacks with Combat Reflexes.At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the Swashbuckler may add their Charisma modifier to another one of the options presented.
The Mysterious Avenger archetype receives another instance of this ability at 4th level instead of 3 uses of the official version of Charmed Life. Racial Favored Class options that currently add +1/4 of a use of the official version of Charmed Life will instead add +1/6 of a new instance of this version of Charmed Life.
This version is actually really good, and I think solves most of the problems with the class all by itself.
I am going to go with that one for my home games. I like the additional non-save choices. Thank you for sharing!
|
|
I am going to go with that one for my home games.
Yay! Glad it's getting used by someone other than just me.
I like the additional non-save choices.
Me, too, rather obviously. :)
My intent was to differentiate the Swashbuckler bonus from a Paladin's Divine Grace, make sure there were enough different bonuses to fill all five levels where Charmed Life comes up, make the Swashbuckler potentially good at just about all the different things you might expect them to be good at, and allow for multiclassing with Paladin if you want without class abilities being redundant. I like to think I managed all that pretty well.
Thank you for sharing!
You're quite welcome. I'm always happy to be of assistance. :)
I like that one too.
Thanks. :)
I might consider adding a feat for an additional Charmed Life benefit. After all, Extra Hex, Extra Rage Power, and several other similar items already exist for other classes.
Yeah, that's a viable choice. Though a few more options might be good if planning on doing that.
That might also make a two level dip in Swashbuckler too good, since the bonuses aren't actually level based. You might want to put some sort of level-based limitation on them if going that route (ie: go with "add your Swashbuckler level up to a maximum of your Charisma modifier" instead of just "add your Charisma modifier").
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My basic suggestion is to replace Charmed Life with the following ability (also called Charmed Life):
Charmed Life: At 2nd level the Swashbuckler may add her Charisma modifier as a permanent bonus to one of the following options:
The Swashbuckler's Fortitude Save.
The Swashbuckler's Reflex Save.
The Swashbuckler's Will Save.
The Swashbuckler's Initiative.
All Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, and Swim checks that the Swashbuckler makes.
The Swashbuckler's combat maneuver bonus for one type of maneuver and her CMD to defend against that maneuver.
The number of attacks of opportunity the Swashbuckler can make per turn. This bonus stacks with Combat Reflexes.At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the Swashbuckler may add their Charisma modifier to another one of the options presented.
The Mysterious Avenger archetype receives another instance of this ability at 4th level instead of 3 uses of the official version of Charmed Life. Racial Favored Class options that currently add +1/4 of a use of the official version of Charmed Life will instead add +1/6 of a new instance of this version of Charmed Life.
This version is actually really good, and I think solves most of the problems with the class all by itself.
I'm personally not a big fan of this myself. I like the idea of Charmed Life being a reactionary ability, which adds more gameplay to the class. I'd prefer that be improved rather than making it a passive ability. Though, this is a much better suggestion than merely giving them divine grace, which is one of the most powerful secondary abilities in the game.
The whole point of the swashbuckler is a class that allows many tactical decisions for melee combat.
|
|
Any change that still requires the swashbuckler to stand still and full-attack will be inadequate. That's what ruins the monk, and it's what I see as the core issue for swashbucklers.
That design space seems best suited to Feats. Heck, at the moment, Pummeling Charge allows pounce on just about anyone (though that's probably not intentional and likely to be errataed), but a Swashbuckler only Feat tree to allow something similar seems the way to solve this particular problem in a more elegant fashion, at least to me. Most abilities that do this are around three Feats total (or the equivalent) and kick in at 8th-12th level. Something could pretty easily be whipped up, and one that's a bit less restrictive than Pounce if you set it up right.
I'm personally not a big fan of this myself. I like the idea of Charmed Life being a reactionary ability, which adds more gameplay to the class. I'd prefer that be improved rather than making it a passive ability.
The issue there is that Swashbucklers need better Saves, I was going for a relatively low-impact way to give those to them without screwing with things too much. If you're willing to give them a Good Save other than Reflex and make Charmed Life not take an action, that could work, but I feel like it'd still be a bit lackluster as compared to getting actual bonuses based on Charisma.
Though, this is a much better suggestion than merely giving them divine grace, which is one of the most powerful secondary abilities in the game.
Yeah, I felt like without the Paladin's thematic restrictions, giving that to Swashbucklers would just result in everyone grabbing two levels of Swashbuckler for the Charisma-to-Saves. Besides, giving two classes the exact same feature feels wrong, and it would leave four dead levels.
The whole point of the swashbuckler is a class that allows many tactical decisions for melee combat.
I'm not entirely sure that's true, but if you want it to be, I don't think Saves are the place to put that tactical decision making. Too high-stakes to gamble with. Anyone with actual good tactical instincts will always use the Save-Booster on Saves they're at all worried about rather than doing anything else, since failing a Save is so potentially awful.
Maybe we should improved Charmed Life by making Divine Grace and all similar abilities into X-per-day.
This does not make Charmed Life good, it just makes Divine Grace bad. And boosts save-or-die spellcasters even further. Save-or-die spelcasters do not need to be boosted.
The whole point of the swashbuckler is a class that allows many tactical decisions for melee combat.I'm not entirely sure that's true, but if you want it to be, I don't think Saves are the place to put that tactical decision making. Too high-stakes to gamble with. Anyone with actual good tactical instincts will always use the Save-Booster on Saves they're at all worried about rather than doing anything else, since failing a Save is so potentially awful.
That's what makes Charmed Life perfect as a reactionary ability. Saving against effects are definitely the sort of thing that captures the imagination of a character that uses cunning, luck, and wit to defy the odds. That's much more fun than a passive bonus, which I argue is more important.
I believe the class is all about tactical melee combat, because the entire class's kit involves damage bonuses and deeds, a class feature designed to enable active tactical maneuvers and decisions.
One should not have to choose between doing cool things or risking being taken out of combat entirely based on not having awesome save dice. And, as has been mentioned before, poison saves are never really once per turn, but are forced in bunches. Charmed life as is ends up being pretty useless in that situation.The whole point of the swashbuckler is a class that allows many tactical decisions for melee combat.I'm not entirely sure that's true, but if you want it to be, I don't think Saves are the place to put that tactical decision making. Too high-stakes to gamble with. Anyone with actual good tactical instincts will always use the Save-Booster on Saves they're at all worried about rather than doing anything else, since failing a Save is so potentially awful.That's what makes Charmed Life perfect as a reactionary ability. Saving against effects are definitely the sort of thing that captures the imagination of a character that uses cunning, luck, and wit to defy the odds. That's much more fun than a passive bonus, which I argue is more important.
I believe the class is all about tactical melee combat, because the entire class's kit involves damage bonuses and deeds, a class feature designed to enable active tactical maneuvers and decisions.
Charmed Life doesn't cost any panache, and relying on chance to avoid effects is an innate trait of this game. So, that's a rather weak argument. In a chance game, player skill comes to play with working around chance. Poisons are not really a good example because a swashbuckler can use charmed life to save against the initial effect, thereby negating the poison entirely, or against each application to contribute to ending the on-going effect. Honestly, a weakness to poison seems rather thematic for a swashbuckler. They possess a quick wit and quick reflexes to avoid the threats of their foes, but can succumb to a "dishonorable" tactic such as poison.
Again, I do agree charmed life could use some work, and I personally believe all non-spellcasting martials should have two saves (though I personally prefer Will for the swashbuckler since all of my favorite swashbucklers in fiction had a wit as sharp as their blade). I merely suggest that charmed life should retain its position as an active/reactionary ability rather than a passive one.
|
i agree with Cyrad about the reactive ability being more thematic for the class.
i would make the ability more powerful but less restricted per day.
consider this:
:
Once per day, after rolling an attack roll, skill check, or saving throw, the swashbuckler may immediately either re-roll or add in his Charisma bonus (if any). He may not do both, and is bound to this altered result. At 3rd level, and again every three swashbuckler levels, he gains an additional use of this ability, to a maximum of 7 times per day at 18th level.
Dotted for interest.
The way I see it, Precise Strike + Swashbuckler Weapon Training can be used on more foes as a damage and attack boost than smite can. Smite is limited to evil while Precise Strike is limited by sneak attack immunity. Swashbuckler Weapon Training is never limited by anything.
Also I think that charisma to saves + having a good fortitude save should be incompatible. No blanket Charisma to saves unless the saves stay as they are.Why would that be? Pallys get good fort and will.
Precise Strike should never be compared to Smite. The "extra damage" it provides brings you roughly up to par with the damage you would be doing with a two-handed weapon, or two-weapon fighting. Paladins are already doing that against every enemy, with smite being a pure bonus on top.
Charmed Life doesn't cost any panache,
It doesn't, but it prevents you from using any abilities that require spending panache, because more or less all of them require a swift action. You lose access to your next swift action whenever you use an immediate action, and may only do so once per round. And of course Charmed Life runs off its own usage pool, which is a lot more limiting than the panache pool in practice.
If you're willing to dig through the playtest threads, I have a very verbose post in there about what an inefficient band-aid it is. Say you're attacked by a ghoul, which gets a lucky hit in (likely, they get a lot of attacks for their CR). If you didn't already use your immediate action to try to parry, you're forced to choose between activating charmed life for the paralysis, or the con damaging disease. Take a second hit that round and you can't parry or activate charmed life. On top of which, even when you do get it, charmed life isn't even going to bring your fort save up to par with that of anyone else who ends up on the front line making them on a regular basis.
Parrying only costs an immediate action if you attack the enemy. But I concede your point.
I have another idea though. What if Charmed Life buffed your saves for the entire round? It would go well with derring-do. Use derring-do to do something daring act and then charmed life in case the plan goes awry.
I created s Swashbuckler class before the release of the ACG playtest...something very similar in fact, but with a little bit more versatility inside the class frame. It is wath I use instead of the somewhat boring Paizo's one.
For Dex to Damage, there is also the duelist of the roaring falls feat for Duelist's sword
I like changing precise strike to deal standard damage, but would allowing it to be multiplied on a crit be a little too much? I'm also not sure about losing the light armor proficiency.It probably would be, I think it be best to change precise strike to dex to damage(up to their level) and remove that feature from slashing grace. Make dexterity to melee damage their ability. The up to their level bit is to discourage dipping.
All that would do would lower their damage, everyone playing a swashbuckler is going to get it one way or another anyway.
Slashing Grace, Agile weapon, or Fencing Grace when it is in print.
However I would be ok with that if they gave up the idea of not being able to attack with anything in the other hand.
You don't need to modify the class to do that. The only feature swashbucklers have which insists on them using a one-handed weapon and an empty off-hand is Slashing Grace, and all it does is offset the damage you lose by doing so. It is a zero-sum enabler of a theme-y option, which is no better or worse than what you'd have if you just pretended you didn't get the ability. Well, aside from the whole bit about being denied your extra crit damage, which makes it an inferior option.