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When interpreting rules, I like to keep this motto in mind: "A character with Ability X should have an advantage over characters without it".
And, what would be the most fair, fast, and enjoyable solution for the entire table without invalidating some character choices or the scenario design intent.
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Can't we just use magic to disintegrate this bugbear (like we do for every problem)?
SONIC WAYFINDER
Aura faint transmutation; CL 6th
Slot none; Price 500 gp; Weight 1 lb.
DESCRIPTION
This silver Wayfinder has a steel button, that, when pressed, causes a buzzing green sonic field to emit from the other end of the device. This beam can scan technological material and impart a psychic understanding of the scanned target into the wielder's mind. When the wielder stands adjacent to the target and uses the Sonic Wayfinder on any technological device, including creatures, they are treated as having the Technologist feat for the purpose of skill checks.
CONSTRUCTION
Requirements Fabricate, Craft Wondrous Item, ; Cost 250 gp
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Or, just deal with the fact that not every character will be able to know EVERYTHING about EVERY technological device and foe. Maybe allow a little mystery back into the game?
"Oh, it looks like a clockwork beastie... let's just deal with it like that."
I am more concerned that everyone is going to believe that they have to buy an adamantine weapon as soon as possible (which could be as early as level 3.0, if they don't spend ANYTHING before that). How much sky metal is still around? Is the Society going to have to launch an expedition to secure ever more quantities of the stuff? What will the Technic League have to say about this?
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I agree with Silbeg on this mostly. However, I think Pathfinder needs a middle ground in the item hardness regime. I think that mithril should have had the ability to ignore hardness less than 15 or perhaps 12 in order to provide an alternative to adamantine. Because frankly, adamantine has been >>>>>>>>> +1 magic for a long time now.
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If it was just about identifying the robots and knowing the best way to bash them to pieces, this wouldn't be that big a deal. Trial and error in combat, or just doing your max damage and hoping it's enough to overcome DR/hardness when you don't know it's there, is sometimes all you can do.
My big concern is that in the one season 6 scenario I played already, there was a prestige point tied to discovering a non-combat way to deal with a particular piece of technology. John Compton has since stated on the forums that a regular knowledge (arcana) check will do the trick in that scenario, but that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, and it doesn't say that in the scenario, so I can certainly understand most GMs not thinking to let PCs try that knowledge roll.
I think in our case, our GM let us use a completely different skill just out of pity, which isn't correct, but makes a lot more sense. We got the information after it was already too late to salvage the prestige point, but it let us finish the main mission of the scenario and save a PC from death.
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In that particular scenario, the creature in question does not actually have the Robot Subtype, so it's not actually going against the rules to use Know Arcana.
But it doesn't help against the first encounter just trying to get into the museum which is pretty brutal.
But, I've got my Everburning Torch that beats even Deeper Darkness, so I never need to worry about Season 6 again. :P
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In that particular scenario, the creature in question does not actually have the Robot Subtype, so it's not actually going against the rules to use Know Arcana.
I understand the reason for the ruling, but it still doesn't make much sense. It means knowledge (arcana) is the proper skill for that particular technology based... err... "situation". It might work according to the rules, but it's so counter-intuitive that most people won't even think of it.
But it doesn't help against the first encounter just trying to get into the museum which is pretty brutal.
At the higher sub-tier, my group pretty much just assumed they were constructs, so adamantine would work. And we had some other things that would do enough damage to get past DR/hardness the hard way. At the lower sub-tier, most groups won't have any adamantine, and only a small percentage of groups are likely to have the other weakness for those enemies. I can see how that would be really rough.
On our local group's signup web site, we've got this scheduled to run in a few weeks, and I've already posted comments warning people that they should avoid the lower sub-tier. Nobody seems to be taking me seriously, though. It looks like we'll have at least one table at each sub-tier. I'm going to insist on GMing the higher sub-tier, because I don't want to be there for the lower one.
But, I've got my Everburning Torch that beats even Deeper Darkness, so I never need to worry about Season 6 again. :P
I think you're confusing season 6 with season 1 or 2.
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Nope, 6-02 gets you 6 vials of djezet which a are applied as an extra component when casting a spell to increase its effectinve spell level by 1. Cleric casting Continual Flame with these makes an everburning torch that is a 4th level spell, thus beats Deeper Darkness.
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I think it's really strange that they would release scenarios that require rules from a book that they haven't finished shipping to subscribers yet.
They should absolutely build in more of a lag between rules release and scenario appearance, if they expect scenarios to be run correctly.
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I don't know that it is fair to expect most players and GMs to acquire a campaign setting book immediately. Yes, scenarios were written with the same theme in mind, but even the scenarios didn't necessarily take these additional rules into account. I would have personally been happy with a side bar published in the affected scenarios briefly explaining the Technologist feat and its necessity for certain checks.
Fortunately, as someone who has played #6–02 and #6–03, I can say that the scenario was not harmed by my lack of knowing. In a way, it was kind of refreshing.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Can't we just use magic to disintegrate this bugbear (like we do for every problem)?
SONIC WAYFINDER
Aura faint transmutation; CL 6th
Slot none; Price 500 gp; Weight 1 lb.
DESCRIPTION
This silver Wayfinder has a steel button, that, when pressed, causes a buzzing green sonic field to emit from the other end of the device. This beam can scan technological material and impart a psychic understanding of the scanned target into the wielder's mind. When the wielder stands adjacent to the target and uses the Sonic Wayfinder on any technological device, including creatures, they are treated as having the Technologist feat for the purpose of skill checks.
CONSTRUCTION
Requirements Fabricate, Craft Wondrous Item, ; Cost 250 gp
I take issue with that item. It is way too cheap, and the colour seems kinda wrong (blue just seems right). And it understanding stuff, doesn’t seem to fit, how about:
“You can make substitute the bluff skill, when interacting with technology. If you do not have Technologist feat, you suffer a -10 penalty on the roll. Does not work on wood or food.” ^^
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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In that particular scenario, the creature in question does not actually have the Robot Subtype, so it's not actually going against the rules to use Know Arcana.I understand the reason for the ruling, but it still doesn't make much sense. It means knowledge (arcana) is the proper skill for that particular technology based... err... "situation". It might work according to the rules, but it's so counter-intuitive that most people won't even think of it.
But it doesn't help against the first encounter just trying to get into the museum which is pretty brutal.At the higher sub-tier, my group pretty much just assumed they were constructs, so adamantine would work. And we had some other things that would do enough damage to get past DR/hardness the hard way. At the lower sub-tier, most groups won't have any adamantine, and only a small percentage of groups are likely to have the other weakness for those enemies. I can see how that would be really rough.
On our local group's signup web site, we've got this scheduled to run in a few weeks, and I've already posted comments warning people that they should avoid the lower sub-tier. Nobody seems to be taking me seriously, though. It looks like we'll have at least one table at each sub-tier. I'm going to insist on GMing the higher sub-tier, because I don't want to be there for the lower one.
Yeah I played the subtier, it was a bucket of fun. My Kyra rolled superb when it came to melee attack rolls, but even max damage didn’t have an effect. Fortunately we had a fighter with an adamantine waraxe.
And lacking the required Knowledge, the adventure ended, with Kyra almost getting eaten by “some weird silver swarm thing”. Only from conversation with other groups, that played the adventure on a higher level, did we learn about the alternate options… and frankly the group had no way to access that very specific spell. Oh and another group at the same event, didn’t get through the first encounter for “hard” reasons.
The GM did his best, but the adventure didn’t leave a great impression (the fighter wasn’t happy about the interaction between deflect arrows and lasers) .
I can understand why you would prefer to avoid GMing the subtier.
Incidentally, I the next purchase with my hunter will be 8-10 durable adamantine arrows, so that particular problem is won’t come back to bite me (yeah they might be a bit cheesy but 10 arrows is nothing for a hunter, and I would prefer to avoid cheesing with abundant ammunition).
The really sad thing is, that a durable adamantine arrow, used as an improvised melee weapon, might be the optimal purchase for characters attempting this module.
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Only from conversation with other groups, that played the adventure on a higher level, did we learn about the alternate options… and frankly the group had no way to access that very specific spell.
If by "that very specific spell", you're talking about
My group's problem is that we had no way of knowing Remove Disease would get the construct swarm out of a possessed person. And even though an NPC told us electricity damage works on robots, we didn't have any such damage available. I figure only a small percentage of parties will have someone with Shocking Grasp or Lightning Bolt as a spell, or a magic weapon that does shocking damage.
As I said, though, we did have two people with adamantine weapons, and two more who did more than 10 points damage consistently, so they were able to get some of their damage past the hardness anyway. And my controller sorcerer was able to manage the battlefield with stuff like Create Pit, Grease, and Glitterdust (did you know robots can be blinded by Glitterdust?), while the 6th party member was a cleric acting as a healbot.
But again, that's at the higher tier. A group would be lucky to have one PC doing useful damage against them at tier 3-4, let alone the whole group actually contributing and working together as well as ours was.
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Only from conversation with other groups, that played the adventure on a higher level, did we learn about the alternate options… and frankly the group had no way to access that very specific spell.If by "that very specific spell", you're talking about
** spoiler omitted **
I think, in this case, I'll throw in a bit of descriptive flavor (no mechanical change), describing how the character who could benefit from that Very Specific Spell looks as the event is occurring.
That way the players might have a better chance of realizing that that option might be a Good Idea.
Also, since this is a 3-7, Painlord's really useful posts about what PCs should be expected to have access to is on-point. By 3rd level, the casters can afford to start a small collection of spell scrolls- the kind of things that don't come up often enough to memorize/pray for, but when they come up are crucial. Potions for non-casters can sometimes fill the same need.
Things like water breathing. Do we need it often enough to have it ready? No. When it comes up, do we Really Really Need It Right Now? Yes. Get it as a scroll or potion. Be prepared.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Only from conversation with other groups, that played the adventure on a higher level, did we learn about the alternate options… and frankly the group had no way to access that very specific spell.If by "that very specific spell", you're talking about
** spoiler omitted **
I think there are ways to get the cyberplasm out of his host body, we had a monk who understood how to use nonlethal damage. The situation was ultimately resolved with alchemists fire, but our backup plan was to "kite" the cyberplasm for as long is it took us to go outside and purchase new aoe attacks.
At this point we didn't know, that the thing had some kind of conscience, but since we lacked any way to communicate with it the point was moot anyway.
With a low level group (a druid, a figher (with an adamantine weapon), a monk, a pregen Kyra (me), and I think I am forgetting someone) the peaceful option wasn't really on the table, but I heard from another table that a swarmbane clasp was used, and another one talked to the creature and gave it a horse to inhabit.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Only from conversation with other groups, that played the adventure on a higher level, did we learn about the alternate options… and frankly the group had no way to access that very specific spell.If by "that very specific spell", you're talking about
** spoiler omitted **
I think, in this case, I'll throw in a bit of descriptive flavor (no mechanical change), describing how the character who could benefit from that Very Specific Spell looks as the event is occurring.
** spoiler omitted **
That way the players might have a better chance of realizing that that option might be a Good Idea.
Also, since this is a 3-7, Painlord's really useful posts about what PCs should be expected to have access to is on-point. By 3rd level, the casters can afford to start a small collection of spell scrolls- the kind of things that don't come up often enough to memorize/pray for, but when they come up are crucial. Potions for non-casters can sometimes fill the same need.
Things like water breathing. Do we need it often enough to have it ready? No. When it comes up, do we Really Really Need It Right Now? Yes. Get it as a scroll or potion. Be prepared.
*
Yeah the suggestions are great, unfortunately I was playing a pregen, and frankly a comprehend languages is far cheaper than tongues.
I have already shown the list of suggestions to some of my regular players^^