ACG: Arcanist, School Understanding and Bloodline Development

[Darmort]

Quite a simple one, but I'm unsure because of how I initially interpreted it compared to a friend.

With School Understanding, you gain a School Power. Fine, I get that. Using Arcane Reservoir gives you the other Level 1 Power. Fine.

If you take a single Level of Wizard, along with 19 Levels of Arcanist;

Do you count as a 20th Level Wizard for every from your Arcane School, extra School Spells Memorised and all (as well as the Opposed Schools)? This is how my friend interpreted it.

Or do you only get the School Powers? My interpretation.

As for the Bloodline Development, the same situation really. 1 Level of Sorcerer, 19 Levels of Arcanist.

Does this give you all of the Bloodline Powers as well as the extra spells known and additional feats?

Or just all of the Bloodline Powers?

[Ravingdork]

Each one of the [hybrid] classes lists two classes that it draws upon to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don’t stack unless specified. If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline).

It doesn't stack by default.

[Darmort]

So to confirm, it is literally as worded, you get the powers and abilities listed in the Bloodline/Arcane School, and none of the other benefits?

Good to know.

[Ravingdork]

Actually, it looks like the abilities themselves have exceptions:

If the arcanist already has a bloodline (or gains one later), taking this exploit instead allows her arcanist levels to stack with the levels of the class that granted her access to the bloodline when determining the powers and abilities of her bloodline.

If the arcanist already has an arcane school (or gains one later), taking this exploit instead allows her arcanist levels to stack with the levels of the class that granted the arcane school when determining the powers and abilities of her arcane school.

That takes precedent over the default rule mentioned above.

You only get the first level ability. All of this is readily apparent if you read the book.

[MiniGM]

Wow that sounded a bit dickish there RD.

[Calth]

Ravingdork wrote:

Actually, it looks like the abilities themselves have exceptions:

If the arcanist already has a bloodline (or gains one later), taking this exploit instead allows her arcanist levels to stack with the levels of the class that granted her access to the bloodline when determining the powers and abilities of her bloodline.

If the arcanist already has an arcane school (or gains one later), taking this exploit instead allows her arcanist levels to stack with the levels of the class that granted the arcane school when determining the powers and abilities of her arcane school.

That takes precedent over the default rule mentioned above.

You only get the first level ability. All of this is readily apparent if you read the book.

While I hope that is the correct RAI, the RAW tends to the other side. Determining the powers and abilities is easily, and most commonly, read as determining what powers and abilities the character has access to. Look at the eldritch scion, your reading means it has no bloodline powers. In order to not grant access to new powers, the effective level increase has to explicitly state so. For an example, look at the gnome FCB for bloodrager, it says determining the power of the bloodline powers. This would not grant access to new bloodline powers, and would have the appropriate wording for your interpretation. Another example is Eldritch Heritage, it explicitly states you do not gain additional powers.

[Mikael Sebag]

Calth wrote:

While I hope that is the correct RAI, the RAW tends to the other side. Determining the powers and abilities is easily, and most commonly, read as determining what powers and abilities the character has access to. Look at the eldritch scion, your reading means it has no bloodline powers. In order to not grant access to new powers, the effective level increase has to explicitly state so. For an example, look at the gnome FCB for bloodrager, it says determining the power of the bloodline powers. This would not grant access to new bloodline powers, and would have the appropriate wording for your interpretation. Another example is Eldritch Heritage, it explicitly states you do not gain additional powers.

I'm inclined to agree with you, Calth. In the absence of explicit negation, the more common reading is likely the more correct one. There's even an example of that kind of specific negation written into the bloodline development exploit itself that supports your argument, Calth.

In the passage that describes how the exploit works without access to a bloodline, the text reads:

Advanced Class Guide, p.10 wrote:

She does not gain any other abilities when using this exploit in this way, such as bloodline arcana or those bloodline powers gained at 3rd level or higher.

(Emphasis mine.)

Only after that does it read:

Advanced Class Guide, p.10 wrote:

If the arcanist already has a bloodline (or gains one later), taking this exploit instead allows her arcanist levels to stack with the levels of the class that granted her access to the bloodline when determining the powers and abilities of her bloodline.

That "this" in the earlier paragraph is very telling. The text specifically calls out that in the absence of the bloodline class feature, you don't get access to powers above 1st level. So then, why would the text in this passage be so explicit if not to clarify that arcanist levels and sorcerer levels stack for access to bloodline powers with this exploit?

I believe that this is both how it is written and perhaps how it was intended. Whether or not I think this is a balanced option is another matter entirely. ;)

Still, I'd be curious to hear what others think. Should we FAQ?

[Arksangiel]

Well, this could bring up a very interesting build:

Bloodrager 1 (Abyssal) / Sorceror 1 (Abyssal) / Arcanist X.

Now, the arcanist levels should stack for both bloodlines providing a MASSIVE str bonus (morale while bloodraging + inherent).

Cast Transformation, Bloodrage, and watch the carnage ensue...