Goblin Squad Member
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Quick definitions up front:
NRDS: Not Red, Don't Shoot. If someone isn't flagged as hostile, don't attack them without provocation.
NBSI: Not Blue, Shoot It. If someone isn't a member of your company/settlement/alliance/nation or one of its allies, attack them on sight.
The colors in these acronyms come from the system for color coding allies and enemies in EVE Online.
Quite a while ago, before we knew much about the distribution of resources on the PFO map, and the limitations on role training in each settlement, there was a discussion of NRDS and NBSI policies in PFO.
Now that we know more about the level of interdependence in the game, has anyone re-examined their commitment to one principle or the other?
Do you think your group will follow NBSI or NRDS principles inside its settlement(s)? Settlement hexes? Surrounding hexes? Claimed hexes not adjacent to settlements?
If you plan to follow NBSI, how will you protect your settlement from invasion, and your resources from poaching?
If you plan to follow NRDS, how will raw materials that you can't produce locally reach your settlement? Are you willing to forgo the money available from training outsiders?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you plan to follow NBSI, how will you protect your settlement from invasion, and your resources from poaching?
If you plan to follow NRDS, how will raw materials that you can't produce locally reach your settlement? Are you willing to forgo the money available from training outsiders?
I think you need to reverse those questions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was originally planning on operating on an NBSI basis, but with the details of the reputation hits involved now more fleshed out, I am thinking that myself (and any groups not specifically low-rep) will have to operate on an NRDS basis outside of hexes with active PvP windows.
Everywhere in PFO is lowsec, other than the towns which are highsec and hexes with open PVP windows which are nullsec. Given this, I expect that we (The Torchbearers specifically, rather than Sunholm as a whole) will maintain a fairly sizeable number of feuds at any given time.
All this of course, subject to the reality of the game once we're in it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You're right, Nihimon. As Mr. Wonka once said, "Strike that. Reverse it."
Follow-up question for everyone: Does your group have different plans for during and after the War of Towers?
Kadere, maintaining plenty of feuds will certainly keep lots of groups on your 'red list.' I wonder whether you'll be able to declare feud on companies based in the NPC towns.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Phaeros (T7V) will almost certainly be NRDS. I don't think that will have much impact on gross security (defending against invasions and such) since everyone in our territory will get flagged Hostile during our PvP window, so we should be able to deal with any ne'er-do-wells. We're very anxious to learn how the system will allow us to secure our territory without losing Reputation. If necessary, we're prepared to use Feuds and Wars to punish groups which insist on digging for gold in our back yard.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Have the Devs come out with something concrete on what will be displayed about our character? Name, settlement, company, and such.
Not that I am aware of, but you touch on an important point.
In my mind at least, this entire discussion is more or less predicated on the notion that we will be able to very quickly identify if a given player is Red or Blue. If that isn't a trivial thing, the whole equation changes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Have the Devs come out with something concrete on what will be displayed about our character? Name, settlement, company, and such.
Not that I know of.
I hope there is some sort of color coding, at least when we click on a character, to tell us whether one of their groups is hostile to one of our groups. I'd hate to have to memorize a frequently-changing list of allies, neutrals and enemies.
Edit: In other words, what Kadere said.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Follow-up question: Does your group have different plans for during and after the War of Towers?
We expect to be able to amicably split up the towers in our area with our allies - a major upside to being out of the way with nothing but friends as neighbors :)
Our primary responsibility will be in providing the promised support to our allies, and generally working to the benefit of our friends.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Have the Devs come out with something concrete on what will be displayed about our character? Name, settlement, company, and such.Not that I know of.
I hope there is some sort of color coding, at least when we click on a character, to tell us whether one of their groups is hostile to one of our groups. I'd hate to have to memorize a frequently-changing list of allies, neutrals and enemies.
Edit: In other words, what Kadere said.
What I am getting at is what if someone who is not our enemy yet is poaching. How will we know they are not suppose to be there?
EDIT: Just saw your edit :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Have the Devs come out with something concrete on what will be displayed about our character? Name, settlement, company, and such.
During last weekend's Adventure Time with Bonny, I asked Ryan about that very thing. There were a dozen or more of us running around killing stuff, and I pointed out how chaotic it would be trying to identify friend from foe during the War of Towers. He acknowledged that they needed to work on that, but I haven't seen anything.
The way it works in Alpha right now is that you have to target someone to even see their name. You can't click to target unless they're pretty close, like less than 20m. Tab target usually only works on NPCs, but might also pick up Hostile-flagged PCs. Once you have someone targeted, you can see their name and a little silhouette. If their name is red, they're Hostile and you can attack them freely. If their little silhouette is also red, I think that means they're "low Rep". Nothing else to report at this time...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wait a minute, Nihimon. You'll be surrounded by friends, but everyone in your area will be flagged as Hostile during your PVP window? Interesting friendships you've got there...
I think it's a function of the way the PvP window works. During your Settlement's PvP window, as I understand it, anyone in a controlled hex who is not a member of your Settlement can be killed without Reputation loss. It kinda has to work something like that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the traditional EVE coding isn't complex enough for the reality of PFO, in some regards (like feuds/wars) it will be straight forward enough. But for say random day to day encounters it will depend a lot on if you have been attacked, you don't mind the rep hit for being an aggressor, or if the person your contemplating attacking has done anything to earn one of the flags (such as criminal) that would allow you to attack them.
I think that latter case is going to be the most important and varied when determining who you can have at.
@Kadere
While for WoT PVP windows mean FFA at the towers, I do not believe that is true for the rest of the game. If a PoI has it's window open it doesn't mean anyone can attack it with no consequences, you may still need a war/feud otherwise you may suffer some side effects. The PvP windows are designed so that when a conflict can happen is at least somewhat on the defenders terms to make it a bit fairer. It does not dictate if legit conflict can take place, just that conflict can take place.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I favor as much anonymity as possible. My preference is that we would actually have to either introduce ourselves to or engage in combat with someone to even learn their name. I understand that my preference isn't what is desired by many and that I will have to deal with compromise, and that isn't a problem. But I'd still rather the game hew as closely to the security levels you would find in any strange town or wilderness that would compel sociability and polite demeanor.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Let's start by assuming settlements and companies can manually flag other groups or individuals as friendly or unfriendly. So we now have a standing spectrum of blue, green, grey, orange, red, with the middle three all being mechanically neutral.
What I'd like to see is the ability to set no-trespassing laws and no-harvesting laws at a pretty granular level, as in "these hexes are ok to enter for greys, these are greens or better, these are blues only" and then separate filtering for who is allowed to harvest in the hex.
With a system like that you could very carefully control who has what kind access to the various areas your domain, and they'll have plenty warning they aim to misbehave that they're about become attackable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I favor as much anonymity as possible. My preference is that we would actually have to either introduce ourselves to or engage in combat with someone to even learn their name. I understand that my preference isn't what is desired by many and that I will have to deal with compromise, and that isn't a problem. But I'd still rather the game hew as closely to the security levels you would find in any strange town or wilderness that would compel sociability and polite demeanor.
Given this is a video game and not the real world, I would imagine that such anonymity could also lead towards a shoot first ask questions later society. Anonymous strangers tend to make people uneasy. Uneasiness leads to paranoia. Paranoia leads to irrational behavior.
Brighthaven still intends to operate as NRDS. We will likely exercise control over who manages POIs and Outposts in what we consider to be our territory, but we are not likely to go killing strangers for picking up shiny rocks in our territory*.
* Unless said shiny rock collection is consistently depleting our resource pools, then we may need to revisit policies.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Kadere
While for WoT PVP windows mean FFA at the towers, I do not believe that is true for the rest of the game. If a PoI has it's window open it doesn't mean anyone can attack it with no consequences, you may still need a war/feud otherwise you may suffer some side effects. The PvP windows are designed so that when a conflict can happen is at least somewhat on the defenders terms to make it a bit fairer. It does not dictate if legit conflict can take place, just that conflict can take place.
Yeah - forgot about those. I was intending to refer specifically to WoT hexes and their windows, but forgot that there is more than one kind of PvP window :)
For clarity then:
Tower hexes with open windows: Nullsec
NPC guarded hexes: Highsec
Everything else: Lowsec
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Goblin Squad Member
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I favor as much anonymity as possible. My preference is that we would actually have to either introduce ourselves to or engage in combat with someone to even learn their name. I understand that my preference isn't what is desired by many and that I will have to deal with compromise, and that isn't a problem. But I'd still rather the game hew as closely to the security levels you would find in any strange town or wilderness that would compel sociability and polite demeanor.Given this is a video game and not the real world, I would imagine that such anonymity could also lead towards a shoot first ask questions later society. Anonymous strangers tend to make people uneasy. Uneasiness leads to paranoia. Paranoia leads to irrational behavior.
Seconded. The inability to easily identify my existing relationship with a player (via our respective group memberships) will most likely result in anyone approaching me taking an arrow to the face.
In this scenario, I would be a low rep player, of necessity. Getting ganked when I could have prevented it infuriates me, and I'd rather live a low-rep lifestyle than put myself in that situation. As stated above, I'm willing to compromise from NBSI down to NRDS given the rep system - but if I can't see who is red, then NRDS becomes 'don't attack anyone until I'm already under attack', and I'm not willing to compromise that far.
I don't consider this irrational in the slightest.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I doubt that GW will force us to keep a checklist of friends and foes on hand at all times while playing. I also doubt that they'll make us target each character in a fight to determine who is on which side.
I apologize to anyone for whom color coding the PCs breaks immersion, but I think Kadere is right: The social pressures that applied to situations like the American Wild West would not apply in a society where death is an inconvenience. The net result would be for most PCs to attack by default, rather than extending courtesy until allegiance was determined.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Besides colors there should be a symbol or some such option for the colorblind community.
And/or the colors should be customizable, as they are in EVE.
When you get more than a few PCs on screen at once, you really need to be able to tell friend from foe during a battle (especially because PFO includes AoE friendly fire). If reinforcements arrive, I'd prefer to know which side they're on, too, before they start swinging weapons or casting spells.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In Shadowbane, every character had crests overhead displaying their city (settlement) and guild (company) affiliations at a glance. You could toggle that display off if you wanted to, but you generally didn't want to. Those crests also appeared on either side of the target window, so even if you had the overheads toggled off you'd know who you were about to blow up.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There should be some sort of "Halt and identify yourself!" mechanic.
Only usable in territory your settlement controls, you use it on a target and you gain a 99% damage reduction vs their first attack made against you in the next minute.
That would give you a way to ask someone who they are and what they are doing in your territory, while still providing you the first strike opportunity that you give up by not just attacking them on first sight.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There should be some sort of "Halt and identify yourself!" mechanic.
Only usable in territory your settlement controls, you use it on a target and you gain a 99% damage reduction vs their first attack made against you in the next minute.
That would give you a way to ask someone who they are and what they are doing in your territory, while still providing you the first strike opportunity that you give up by not just attacking them on first sight.
I proposed something along those lines here, although having it limited to your own sovereignty is an interesting wrinkle.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the idea of the crests, or something like them. They could even be displayed without names over characters that you haven't targeted. That would help to preserve a bit of anonymity. Maybe the crest itself could display the colors and patterns selected by the company and settlement, but the outline around the crest could change color and shape to indicate friendly/neutral/hostile. Flags, such as criminal, heinous or enforcer, could hang underneath or beside the crest.
Without some sort of ID, you could be shot by your own teammates every time you changed your armor.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The only issues Aragon would have with characters in our controlled territory is if they are "hostile" or poaching resources without our permission. Hopefully, the settlement management system will allow for a setting to mark any unauthorized operation of an outpost to be marked as trespassing.
In both instances, hostile or trespasser flagged, the characters would be reputation free kills and that falls within NRDS.
In the event that an unauthorized outpost is not or can not be set as trespassing, the outpost can still be raided. The owner company, not being a member of the settlement, will be on their own to defend it. Furthermore, should they choose to become hostile, they will become reputation free targets for all citizens of Aragon. This becomes an example of our policy "You Have What You Hold". It still qualifies as NRDS, but it could be categorized as NBRI.
