There are a few threads on this, but I still have a couple of questions.
Is hovering a move action? Does this mean that you cannot take a full-round attack while flying? It makes sense, I suppose, and explains why dragons land on the ground to fight adventurers. It creates a bit of a quandry for air elementals, though, who are always flying. But then again, they don't use wings. But neither to PCs using the fly spell.
What I'm asking is: can a PC using a fly spell just sit there hovering in midair and make full-round attacks as though they were standing on the ground?
You can "turn more than 45° by spending 5' of movement", and "Turn 180° by spending 10 feet of movement". 180 is greater than 45 - why can't you just spend the 5'? Is there some errata to the effect that 5' will buy you more than 45° but only up to 90° or 135° or something?
When you sacrifice 5' of movement to turn, do we assume that this 5' does not count towards the requirement to move at least half your movement to stray aloft? I suppose so, otherwise you could hover by just spinning in place.
The fly spell states that it "requires no more concentration than walking". I read this as "it requires no more concentration to fly than a creature with a fly speed needs". That is, you still need to make fly checks when you are flying with a spell.
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Is hovering a move action? Does this mean that you cannot take a full-round attack while flying? It makes sense, I suppose, and explains why dragons land on the ground to fight adventurers. It creates a bit of a quandry for air elementals, though, who are always flying. But then again, they don't use wings. But neither to PCs using the fly spell.
What I'm asking is: can a PC using a fly spell just sit there hovering in midair and make full-round attacks as though they were standing on the ground?
Most (if not all) skills contain a section detailing what kind of action is required to use the skill. For Fly:
Action: None. A Fly check doesn't require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.
So yes, you can hover and make a full attack.
You can "turn more than 45° by spending 5' of movement", and "Turn 180° by spending 10 feet of movement". 180 is greater than 45 - why can't you just spend the 5'? Is there some errata to the effect that 5' will buy you more than 45° but only up to 90° or 135° or something?
There doesn't need to be errata. If you turn more than 45 degrees, you spend 5 feet of movement. If you turn 180 degrees, you spend 10' of movement.
When you sacrifice 5' of movement to turn, do we assume that this 5' does not count towards the requirement to move at least half your movement to stray aloft? I suppose so, otherwise you could hover by just spinning in place.
Correct. You are sacrificing movement, not actually moving. Only actual movement counts.
The fly spell states that it "requires no more concentration than walking". I read this as "it requires no more concentration to fly than a creature with a fly speed needs". That is, you still need to make fly checks when you are flying with a spell.
Correct. But note you only need to make Fly checks when performing a complex maneuver. Regular movement and gentle turns (less than 45 degrees) do not require checks.
Something I missed - if a creature using wings to fly fails a fly check, it plummets out of the sky. What happens to someone using a spell?
Certainly the fly *check* made while hovering is part of the hover, but is the *hovering itself* a move action? There's much more involved in hovering than just standing on the ground.
Probably the rules don't explicitly say.
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Is hovering a move action?
What I'm asking is: can a PC using a fly spell just sit there hovering in midair and make full-round attacks as though they were standing on the ground?
Hovering is not an action, but it does require a fly check (DC 15) if you don't have the Hover feat.
You can "turn more than 45° by spending 5' of movement", and "Turn 180° by spending 10 feet of movement". 180 is greater than 45 - why can't you just spend the 5'? Is there some errata to the effect that 5' will buy you more than 45° but only up to 90° or 135° or something?
What it means is if you turn at an angle between 45-180 degrees then it costs 5', 180 degrees costs 10'.
When you sacrifice 5' of movement to turn, do we assume that this 5' does not count towards the requirement to move at least half your movement to stray aloft? I suppose so, otherwise you could hover by just spinning in place.
I don't believe it counts toward the minimum.
The fly spell states that it "requires no more concentration than walking". I read this as "it requires no more concentration to fly than a creature with a fly speed needs". That is, you still need to make fly checks when you are flying with a spell.
Fly checks are needed for any creature that flys regardless of the means in which you they do it.
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It's hilarious when I run PFS tables where the party Wizard casts Fly on the Fighter in heavy armor. I enforce the Fly rules when I GM, and I find that many players are used to skipping over them.
Anywhom, I think it's clear that if you turn 180 degrees that you have to sacrifice 10' of movement. Yes, 180 > 45, but the maneuver is listed as "Turn 180° by spending 10 feet of movement", and I don't see how that can be ignored.
One thing to remember though is that the turning only applies during that rounds movement. You can fly east one round, and then fly west the next round without making any fly checks. If you want to fly east 20 feet, and then fly west 40 feet during your turn you have to make the fly check.
Flying:
- doesn't require an action.
- doesn't require a skill check if you move at least half your normal fly speed and turn less than 45° (although there is a mistake in the skill description text, compared to the table)
- allows you to hover if you meet the DC15 check (+4 for good maneuverability with the fly spell).
Logically, if you're hovering (and hence not moving) you can make a full attack action.
This is not specifically noted in the fly skill, though, and one might argue that hovering is a move action, and hence you can never take a full attack action while flying.
I'd be curious to see if there are rulings on the use of hover and full attacks.
One thing to remember though is that the turning only applies during that rounds movement. You can fly east one round, and then fly west the next round without making any fly checks. If you want to fly east 20 feet, and then fly west 40 feet during your turn you have to make the fly check.
What do you base this on? It's not logically consistent, and unless there is a specific reference, I would think that you would have to retain your direction of flight from one round to the next.
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One thing to remember though is that the turning only applies during that rounds movement. You can fly east one round, and then fly west the next round without making any fly checks. If you want to fly east 20 feet, and then fly west 40 feet during your turn you have to make the fly check.What do you base this on? It's not logically consistent, and unless there is a specific reference, I would think that you would have to retain your direction of flight from one round to the next.
From the Fly Skill: Note that these restrictions only apply to movement taken during your current turn. At the beginning of the next turn, you can move in a different direction than you did the previous turn without making a check.
There isn't any 'facing' in pathfinder.
There is no definition of "natural fly speed". The Fly spell gives you a fly speed, and good maneuverability. I think it's pretty easy to put 2 and 2 together, here.
It doesn't need to be defined when it is self-evident.
I certainly don't need a rule book to tell me that flight granted by a spell doesn't quite meet the requirements of 'natural'.|
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I'll nip this in the bud early and say that we'll probably have to agree to disagree. You say that "words generally mean what they mean", in reference to the Fly skill and "natural fly speed". I agree that "words generally mean what they mean", but I apply that statement to the Fly spell granting "good maneuverability", and I don't assume it's in error.
Same logic, different conclusions.
(let's hope Anzyr doesn't catch wind of this thread)