So I want to make a catfolk fighter using only claws on both hand. I am confused on how fighting works with only natural weapons. to me the rule reads like I would never get more than 2 attack from a higher BAB but all so I would not take any neg for using a claw in each hand?
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
Yeah, you don't take any two-weapon fighting penalties, but you can only have those two claws, even if your BAB is +20.
Natural weapons are outside of the normal rules for two-weapon fighting.
Yes, the disadvantage of natural attacks is that they never get iterative attacks. The advantage is that you can make as many natural attacks in a full attack as you have limbs (including wings, tails, and heads, if you have that limb and have a legal way to add a natural attack to them).
There are a few ways to improve on your catfolk's style.
One of the simplest ways is to add more natural attacks. There are helms, rings, capes, etc. that can add them magically. There are cheese methods where you use the adopted trait to grab the half orc tusked trait, which gives a bite (please don't do this; just a personal message). Unfortunately, there are very few methods that would give you anything that could be used in claw pounce. This mostly just boosts your damage during regular full attacks.
Another method is to be a monk and use feral combat training. This basically turns your natural attack into a monk weapon for the purposes of flurry, and lets you get most effects that boost unarmed strikes (so the monk unarmed strike damage, the use of spells like magic weapon that do not boost natural attacks but can do so for unarmed strikes, etc). Interestingly, since you are using your claws, you could still use the the claw pounce (since flurries are full attack actions, and qualify for pounce). Rather powerful combo.
There is also an item for catfolk, the claw blades, that turn your claw attacks into light blades. That means iterative attacks, use of TWF rules, and that the item can be enhanced like normal. I am unsure whether they still qualify for claw pounce, but if they do, then this is something to keep in mind at higher levels where just 2 natural attacks do not really cut it, but the penalties of TWF cause relatively less damage.
There is also an item for catfolk, the claw blades, that turn your claw attacks into light blades. That means iterative attacks, use of TWF rules, and that the item can be enhanced like normal. I am unsure whether they still qualify for claw pounce, but if they do, then this is something to keep in mind at higher levels where just 2 natural attacks do not really cut it, but the penalties of TWF cause relatively less damage.
Yeah, I don't see why it would make the claw pounce feat not work anymore, and if a GM were to say that, I'd think they were being unnecessarily harsh.
Ah, might as well add the link to the claw blades: here
And yeah, they likely still count as claws since the claw blades go to a long length on describing how they alter the claws rather just saying that the blades are weapons themselves.
Ah, might as well add the link to the claw blades: here
And yeah, they likely still count as claws since the claw blades go to a long length on describing how they alter the claws rather just saying that the blades are weapons themselves.
They specifically say they change the claws to light weapons, so they would then follow all the normal rules for using manufactured weapons rather than natural weapons.
They specifically say they change the claws to light weapons, so they would then follow all the normal rules for using manufactured weapons rather than natural weapons.Ah, might as well add the link to the claw blades: here
And yeah, they likely still count as claws since the claw blades go to a long length on describing how they alter the claws rather just saying that the blades are weapons themselves.
Well, yes, they would not be that different from a pair of daggers for normal full attacks and TWF.
But the important thing here is that the 'claws' are altered, rather than replaced. Since they are still 'claws', then they might still fit into this
Benefit: When you make a charge, you can make a full attack with your claws.
The feat does necessarily say you have to use natural attacks, but that you use 'claws'.
Sorry, lemeres, but he's right.
They specifically state that they are now light weapons, and therefore suffer full penalties and benefit from all bonuses.
There's a FAQ or developer statement around here somewhere where they say this, but someone with better search skills could probably show you where it is.
Sorry, lemeres, but he's right.
They specifically state that they are now light weapons, and therefore suffer full penalties and benefit from all bonuses.There's a FAQ or developer statement around here somewhere where they say this, but someone with better search skills could probably show you where it is.
....I never argued against that. Why do you think I've said anything against that?
There is also an item for catfolk, the claw blades, that turn your claw attacks into light blades. That means iterative attacks, use of TWF rules, and that the item can be enhanced like normal.
I was arguing whether they still qualified for claw pounce since the 'claw' is turned into a light weapon by the claw blades.
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There are cheese methods where you use the adopted trait to grab the half orc tusked trait, which gives a bite (please don't do this; just a personal message).
That's stupid. If a person wants to do this, there's no reason not to. It's mechanically sound and every playable PC race has a mouth to bite with. Sure, will they have "tusks"? No, but I assure you if I were raised by combative orcs they definitely would teach me to do what I can. "Your enemies will never expect such an attack from one with teeth such as yours--that makes it all the more deadly". People bite people all the time. Everyone remember Mike Tyson, right?
Besides, this trait-combination makes even more sense for a beast-like race such as catfolk. And since tieflings get maw-or-claw it works for them as well. A lot of the tiefling pictures I've seen show rows of sharp teeth--sure they're not tusks, but it's still a deadly bite.
Anyone who has a problem with this needs to learn to RP better. (this is from someone who doesn't really RP much at all and enjoys the mechanics)
There are cheese methods where you use the adopted trait to grab the half orc tusked trait, which gives a bite (please don't do this; just a personal message).That's stupid. If a person wants to do this, there's no reason not to. It's mechanically sound and every playable PC race has a mouth to bite with. Sure, will they have "tusks"? No, but I assure you if I were raised by combative orcs they definitely would teach me to do what I can. "Your enemies will never expect such an attack from one with teeth such as yours--that makes it all the more deadly". People bite people all the time. Everyone remember Mike Tyson, right?
Besides, this trait-combination makes even more sense for a beast-like race such as catfolk. And since tieflings get maw-or-claw it works for them as well. A lot of the tiefling pictures I've seen show rows of sharp teeth--sure they're not tusks, but it's still a deadly bite.
Anyone who has a problem with this needs to learn to RP better. (this is from someone who doesn't really RP much at all and enjoys the mechanics)
Sorry, my problem with them came from the fact that, in ages past, this section of the forum was filled with threads about half orc raised catfolk barbarians looking to cheat a way to get a ton of natural attacks.
Since I brought it up, I might as well reiterate it- taking something like barbarian's lesser beast totem or alchemist's feral mutagen does not grant you more claw attacks than you have arms. You only get one attack routine per arm, and each claw attack is its own attack routine. And no, claw attacks can't go on the feet. Developers have stated that only talons (or rake attacks) go on humanoid shaped creature's feet.
The number, length, and insanity of threads needed to establish this have left a deep scar in my psyche, and as such half-orc raised barbarians have become my go to for misapplied rules bordering on munchkinism. Just entering 'catfolk barbarian' into the search bar for the rules forum brings up a painful amount of threads, each serving as good sources if you are looking for the relevant rules.
I still feel that the fact that there is occasionally a guy who pops up and suggests that trait for natural attack build, no matter the race, reflects a rather bad side of this forum.
the pounce feat was ultimately what i was going to ask with the use of cat claws. personaly, i dont see why you could not use both. claw blade just turn my claws in a light weapon class but there still claws. inorder for claw pounce to work i need use a claws attack from my trate or aspect , which i would be. it does not say nothing about the claws haveing to be natural weapon. am i right?
Claw Blades: These subtle blades can only be used by catfolk with the cat's claws racial trait. Bought in a set of five, they fit over the wearer's claws on one hand. The blades grant the wearer a +1 enhancement bonus on claw attack rolls with that hand and change the weapon type from a natural weapon to a light slashing weapon. Catfolk with the cat's claws racial trait are proficient with this weapon. The claw blades can be enhanced like a masterwork weapon for the normal costs. The listed cost of the item is for one set of five claws for one hand.
Claw Pounce (Combat)
You can charge and make an attack with your paws.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Dex 15, Nimble Striker, base attack bonus +10, catfolk, cat's claws racial trait or Aspect of the Beast (claws of the beast manifestation).
Benefit: When you make a charge, you can make a full attack with your claws.
Normal: Charging is a special full-round action that limits you to a single attack
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I believe the Claw blades would have to follow all of the rules for fighting with two light manufactured weapons; but I believe they would work with Claw Pounce.
That's how I read the RAW.
You specifically need claws to use the blades and execute the pounce. Nothing precludes from using one when doing the other.
The fact that the claw blades give "a +1 enhancement bonus on claw attack rolls" seems to indicate that they are still labeled as 'claws' for things like feats.
Yes, I agree with lemeres and Krodjin. In my opinion the claw blades are designed to allow you to treat your claws as manufactured weapons while still using the catfolk specific feats and rogue talents like claw pounce and vicious claws.
I'm GMing a game right now where our catfolk rogue is using the vicious claws talent to bump up his sneak attack damage to D8s, even though he's using his claw blades. Should he ever make it to level 14 we will be permitting all 4 (6 at level 15) iterative attacks with his claw blades on a pounce. He's going to be a real nightmare with the crippling strike talent and his stupidly high initiative.