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I was just going through Sneak Attack rules and got into a bit of a tussle over the wording.
RAW is "The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target."
Now I've always taken that to mean a condition that reduces a target's Dex bonus to AC for example Entangled gives a -4 to Dex.
In discussion I find that most people take it to mean that the sentence should be read "would be denied its Dexterity bonus etc"
So I had a look through conditions and made the following list
Blinded
Cowering
Entangled?
Exhausted?
Fatigued?
Grappled?
Helpless
Invisible (Attacker not target)
Paralyzed (Helpless)
Pinned
Stunned
Unconscious (Helpless)
And of course Flatfooted from Surprise.
Bold are where the formula loses/denied its Dex bonus to AC is used, except Helpless where it is explicitly stated that Sneak Attack can be used.
The others all include penalties to Dex (up to -6) but don't use that formula or mention Sneak.
Assuming my original premise was incorrect does anyone know of any more conditions that use the correct formula/mention Sneak Attack/render you Flatfooted?
This might be summed up under the condition of flatfooted, but I believe when a character is using the acrobatics skill to maneuver over a difficult surface (such as a narrow plank) the character loses its dexterity bonus to AC. This is potentially meaningful because the grease spell creates a slippery surface which requires acrobatics checks to move across at a certain speed. So depending on how you read it, I believe the grease spell can create a situation where a creature loses its dex to AC.
Using the Run action also loses dex to AC, but if something is running (unless it triggers an AOO in the process) it's probably too far away for the rogue to capitalize on such a condition.
Nice! The Grease one follows logically, especially as the description contains a proviso of not being Flatfooted if you don't try to move.
You might get a ranged Sneak in on the runner with a held initiative
If you can't react to a blow, you can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC.
Paizo specifies in condition definitions that Dex bonus is denied vs a modified Dex bonus. Even if your Dex is -4 due to entanglement, you can still move and thus react to a blow. Fatigued is similar. Give the benefit of the doubt to the person who would be on the receiving end of the sneak attack, because SA can be devastating.
As you noted, running, greased+moving, and tumbling characters are perfectly elegible for sneak damage.
Also, climbing: "While climbing, you can't move to avoid a blow, so you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)." But not flying: "You are not considered flat-footed while flying."
You know, I've read that sneak attack description a thousand times and never noticed the wording or that it might be confusing. What fun! Since I'm building a rogue PC for the first time since Pathfinder came out!, it's very handy to have this little reference. I hope other people find more such conditions. LOTS more!
EDIT: If you really want to have some fun, figure out who is denied Reflex saves.
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Helpless Defenders section in Combat states that a Helpless foe is also Flat-footed.
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I had tried to bring out a hidden weapon to sneak with while grappled. Not sure why my Archtype would have such a loaded skill to allow this and not be able to sneak with it, but that is what my GM said at the table. I do need quick draw to do it in the same turn, but otherwise I am confused as to why this wouldn't work.
If you can't react to a blow, you can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC.Paizo specifies in condition definitions that Dex bonus is denied vs a modified Dex bonus. Even if your Dex is -4 due to entanglement, you can still move and thus react to a blow. Fatigued is similar. Give the benefit of the doubt to the person who would be on the receiving end of the sneak attack, because SA can be devastating.
As you noted, running, greased+moving, and tumbling characters are perfectly elegible for sneak damage.
Also, climbing: "While climbing, you can't move to avoid a blow, so you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)." But not flying: "You are not considered flat-footed while flying."
You know, I've read that sneak attack description a thousand times and never noticed the wording or that it might be confusing. What fun! Since I'm building a rogue PC for the first time since Pathfinder came out!, it's very handy to have this little reference. I hope other people find more such conditions. LOTS more!
EDIT: If you really want to have some fun, figure out who is denied Reflex saves.
I agree that I was incorrect and your explanation of why is excellent.
I had tried to bring out a hidden weapon to sneak with while grappled. Not sure why my Archtype would have such a loaded skill to allow this and not be able to sneak with it, but that is what my GM said at the table. I do need quick draw to do it in the same turn, but otherwise I am confused as to why this wouldn't work.
What was the Archetype?
Why when tumbling?
You're right; the only mention in Acrobatics is when you're traversing a narrow ledge, and it's specific to 'when you use Acrobatics in this way'. I need to read more carefully.
If you can't react to a blow, you can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC.Paizo specifies in condition definitions that Dex bonus is denied vs a modified Dex bonus. Even if your Dex is -4 due to entanglement, you can still move and thus react to a blow. Fatigued is similar. Give the benefit of the doubt to the person who would be on the receiving end of the sneak attack, because SA can be devastating.
As you noted, running, greased+moving, and tumbling characters are perfectly elegible for sneak damage.
Also, climbing: "While climbing, you can't move to avoid a blow, so you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)." But not flying: "You are not considered flat-footed while flying."
You know, I've read that sneak attack description a thousand times and never noticed the wording or that it might be confusing. What fun! Since I'm building a rogue PC for the first time since Pathfinder came out!, it's very handy to have this little reference. I hope other people find more such conditions. LOTS more!
EDIT: If you really want to have some fun, figure out who is denied Reflex saves.
I agree that I was incorrect and your explanation of why is excellent.
The tumbling use of acrobatics does not make someone lose dex to AC. The use of the skill to balance yourself does.
I had tried to bring out a hidden weapon to sneak with while grappled. Not sure why my Archtype would have such a loaded skill to allow this and not be able to sneak with it, but that is what my GM said at the table. I do need quick draw to do it in the same turn, but otherwise I am confused as to why this wouldn't work.
You may have been out of actions. That is the only reason I can think of.
How did your turn go from beginning to end?
Was the opponent grappled before you started that turn?
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Another one Squeezing through a space that is less than half the size of your usual space.
"To squeeze through or into a space less than half your space's width, you must use the Escape Artist skill. You can't attack while using Escape Artist to squeeze through or into a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty to AC, and you lose any Dexterity bonus to AC."
1 Creatures flailing about in the water (usually because they failed their Swim checks) have a hard time fighting effectively. An off-balance creature loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and opponents gain a +2 bonus on attacks against it.
Oh, of course, feinting:
Greater Feint (Combat)
You are skilled at making foes overreact to your attacks.
Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, base attack bonus +6, Int 13.
Benefit: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
The rules use two terms for receives no Dex bonus to AC.
c.f. Tables: Attack Roll Modifiers & Armor Class Modifiers
"2 (or 1) The defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC."
and "3 The defender is denied his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class."
Which if we were working from those tables and the wording of Sneak Attack would mean that Flat-footed doesn't allow Sneak as it is "loses" not "denied".
In fact the only circumstances where the term denied is used are Pinned and Helpless.
Which if we were working from those tables and the wording of Sneak Attack would mean that Flat-footed doesn't allow Sneak as it is "loses" not "denied".This is fairly pedantic, as we have numerous instances of FF being called out as vulnerable to SA
Yes it is pedantic but that was the point. RAW according to those tables as opposed to RAI as is played.
We got climbing but not the Scout.
It is the Archetype that turns Dagger sneaks into D8's. I also have a trait that adds to it.
I was grappled and had the small Karambit in my Adventurer's Sash.
Ah it wouldn't work because grappled doesn't deny you Dex to AC just reduces Dex itself. Nothing in that Archetype to sidestep that I'm afraid.
Updated list of conditions that allow for Sneak Attacks
Blinded
Cowering
Helpless
Invisible (Attacker not target)
Paralyzed (Helpless)
Pinned
Stunned
Unconscious (Helpless)
Flat-footed
Acrobatics move on narrow ledge/slippery surface
Climbing
Running
Squeezing using Escape Artist
Feint if successful
Swim (failed result)
Scout Archetype - Scout's Charge & Skirmisher allow sneak
It could provide Surprise, in the right circumstances, and therefore render the enemy Flat-footed. As you are being Grappled I doubt it would cause surprise - he knows you are there and that you will be trying to respond.
In this case, surprise has a game definition and is not used colloquially.
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Surprise
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised.
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.
Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
Those are the rules for Surprise. I do not think that using Slight of Hand will suddenly make an opponent unaware that you are there. While the opponent might be alarmed, or shocked, that you would pull a weapon he was not expecting, he is still on his guard and in a defensive position against you.
Initiative and therefore Surprise only occurs as combat starts. For me if the beginning of Combat was the pulling of a concealed weapon that's what the awareness test would be on. If someone was on his guard and in a defensive position I would give them a circumstance bonus. Not RAW I know but RAI in my games.
If I was waiting at a door with the intention of attacking the next person who entered. I would still do Initiative and then Awareness to determine surprise, with a circumstance bonus, same sort of thing really.
Initiative and therefore Surprise only occurs as combat starts. For me if the beginning of Combat was the pulling of a concealed weapon that's what the awareness test would be on. If someone was on his guard and in a defensive position I would give them a circumstance bonus. Not RAW I know but RAI in my games.
If I was waiting at a door with the intention of attacking the next person who entered. I would still do Initiative and then Awareness to determine surprise, with a circumstance bonus, same sort of thing really.
However, your grappler had already acted, and thus is no longer flat footed. Unless the ability specifically calls out as granting sneak attack as part of its ability, you do get it. Since no one has provided a link, I would assume the ability lets you get a weapon in hand without the opponent knowing it. Since you could have struck unarmed, the appearance of a weapon does not change their ability to defend.
Providing class feature names, feat names, and trait names will help everyone know what exactly you have. Links are even better.
/cevah