What is the best way to optimize an unarmed monk?
I mean by mostly taking monk lvls and maybe dipping a bit to make somesort of ''unarmed killing machine'' which the monk never seems to have been even if it's supposed to be.
When I try to build an unarmed build it ends up only dipping the monk and then being a brawler or barbarian etc. Martial artist/barbarian or brawler/MoMS.
How would you optimize an unarmed monk build, where the idea is to actually beat people and not use tetori.
I think that it's either martial artist or monk of the sacred mountain, since vanilla monk is flatout weak.
All help would be appreciated.
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Hey there!
It's maybe not that hard, as you might think.
With Flurry, you have TWF for free. So, be in full attack position as often as possible. When full attacking, your to hit and your static damage should be maxed:
The obvious choices for that are:
- Weapon Focus Feat (+1 to hit)
- Dragon Style Feat Chain (1,5x STR modifier)
- Quain Martial Artist Trait (+1 Unarmed Strike damage)
- Weapon Specialisation (+2 damage)
Later Improved versions should be taken. Weapon Sp. is unlocked through Martial Artist. Qinggong archetype is also a nobrainer.
Then try to boost defenses and your utility.
You can dip Barb or Alchemist for the STR boost, but it delays your Flurry.
Also try to achieve buffs, that give to hit and add damage. If needed, buy those as wands and potions.
Hey there!
It's maybe not that hard, as you might think.
With Flurry, you have TWF for free. So, be in full attack position as often as possible. When full attacking, your to hit and your static damage should be maxed:The obvious choices for that are:
- Weapon Focus Feat (+1 to hit)
- Dragon Style Feat Chain (1,5x STR modifier)
- Quain Martial Artist Trait (+1 Unarmed Strike damage)
- Weapon Specialisation (+2 damage)Later Improved versions should be taken. Weapon Sp. is unlocked through Martial Artist. Qinggong archetype is also a nobrainer.
Then try to boost defenses and your utility.
You can dip Barb or Alchemist for the STR boost, but it delays your Flurry.
Also try to achieve buffs, that give to hit and add damage. If needed, buy those as wands and potions.
So Martial artist yes, I don't think dipping is a good chocie because the progress loss of flurry. But I think they still suffer from the same issue all monks do, 2/3 BAB and no effective way of boosting the AB without magic items.
Hey there!
It's maybe not that hard, as you might think.
With Flurry, you have TWF for free. So, be in full attack position as often as possible. When full attacking, your to hit and your static damage should be maxed:The obvious choices for that are:
- Weapon Focus Feat (+1 to hit)
- Dragon Style Feat Chain (1,5x STR modifier)
- Quain Martial Artist Trait (+1 Unarmed Strike damage)
- Weapon Specialisation (+2 damage)Later Improved versions should be taken. Weapon Sp. is unlocked through Martial Artist. Qinggong archetype is also a nobrainer.
Then try to boost defenses and your utility.
You can dip Barb or Alchemist for the STR boost, but it delays your Flurry.
Also try to achieve buffs, that give to hit and add damage. If needed, buy those as wands and potions.
Also isn't qinggong unavailable since there is no ki pool? That leaves us with sensei only as a stacking archetype.
Do you know how I could buff his defenses also, especially AC to make him a good frontline combatant? The offensive feat choices are great but what about everything else?
The best unarmed monk in terms of raw damage? The sohei.
The sohei has two main advantages over normal monks that allow them to do tons of damage- they can flurry in light armor, and they have weapon training.
Firstly, I will discuss armor. Now, this seems like it would merely increase a monk's defense (well, in reality it only simplifies it; you don't have to be MAD in order to get decent AC, and as such you can focus more on strength), but in fact, it creates a new item slot that can give you a rather nice boost. This is because of the Brawling armor property.. While this was likely designed as 'a nice thing that monks can't have', the sohei is in the right position to take full advantage of it. This armor property adds a straight, untyped, 'stacks with everything' +2 to attack and damage. Another interesting facet of this is that the cost of +1 Brawling armor is about the same as a +1 Amulet of Mighty fists (although it gives you twice the bonuses to attack and damage, and even gives you +1 AC). But that is just a nice little side benefit that helps you tide yourself over until your funds increase.
The second reason why sohei can do a ton of damage is because they have weapon training. This weapon training closely mirrors the fighter's, and overall gives you a +3 to attack and damage in the first weapon group you pick (monk weapons in this case). But the advantages of weapon training do not end there. Because it is literally called 'weapon training', the sohei can actually use items meant only for fighters that use the term as a prerequisite. I listed weapon training after armor because armor frees up your hands slot (normal monks tend to use bracers of armor), which allows you to grab Gloves of Dueling. This item increases the bonuses of weapon training by another +2
As you can see, this archetype allows you to get a +7 to attack and damage ON EVERY HIT through class features and items that a normal monk will never see. On a class that focuses to have on the tons of attacks from flurry, this can add a lot of damage. This also means that even your standard action attacks using 3/4 BAB can hit extremely hard and hit very accurately.
The only downside I can think of with the sohei is that it loses stunning fist, and thus it must wait for FREAKIN' ever to qualify for Dragon's Ferocity (the one that gets you 1/2 of your STR as bonus on each hit).
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What is the best way to optimize an unarmed monk?
I mean by mostly taking monk lvls and maybe dipping a bit to make somesort of ''unarmed killing machine'' which the monk never seems to have been even if it's supposed to be.
When I try to build an unarmed build it ends up only dipping the monk and then being a brawler or barbarian etc. Martial artist/barbarian or brawler/MoMS.
How would you optimize an unarmed monk build, where the idea is to actually beat people and not use tetori.
I think that it's either martial artist or monk of the sacred mountain, since vanilla monk is flatout weak.All help would be appreciated.
Here is an idea
monk_unarmed_10
Male Human (Tian-La) Monk 10
LG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +16
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Defense
--------------------
AC 22, touch 21, flat-footed 19 (+1 armor, +2 Dex, +1 deflection, +1 dodge, +1 insight, +5 untyped)
hp 82 (10d8+29)
Fort +13, Ref +11, Will +12; +2 bonus vs. sleep, paralysis, and stunning
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved evasion; Immune disease
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Offense
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Speed 60 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +16/+11 (1d10+18/19-20+1d6 acid)
. . flurry +16/+16/+11/+11 (1d10+18/19-20+1d6 acid)
Special Attacks flurry of blows, ki strike, cold iron/silver, ki strike, lawful, ki strike, magic, stunning fist (10/day, DC 18)
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 24, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 16, Cha 7
Base Atk +7; CMB +14 (+16 grapple); CMD 35 (37 vs. grapple)
Feats Combat Reflexes, Desperate Battler[ISWG], Dodge, Dragon Ferocity[UC], Dragon Style[UC], Great Fortitude, Improved Critical (unarmed strike), Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
Traits quain martial artist, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +15 (+25 to jump), Climb +14, Intimidate +11, Perception +16, Sense Motive +8, Sleight of Hand +3, Stealth +8, Swim +11
Languages Common, Hon-La, Tien
SQ ac bonus, fast movement, high jump, ki defense, ki pool, maneuver training, monk vows (vow of silence, vow of truth), purity of body, slow fall, stunning fist (stun), unarmed strike, wholeness of body
Combat Gear deliquescent gloves, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, oil of bless weapon, potion of mage armor (2); Other Gear +1 bracers of armor, +2 amulet of mighty fists, belt of giant strength +4, cloak of resistance +2, headband of inspired wisdom +2, dusty rose prism ioun stone, ring of protection +1, bandolier, 1,049 gp, 5 sp
--------------------
Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +5 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Deliquescent gloves +1d6 acid dam to touch/weapon att. Natural/unarmed att is immune to ooze acid & doesn't split.
Desperate Battler Gain +1 morale bonus on melee attack and damage when alone
Dragon Ferocity +3, 1d4+7 rds Gain bonus on unarmed attacks, and you can cause opponents to be shaken
Dragon Style +2 vs sleep, paralysis, and stun, first unarmed strike in a rd deals 1.5x Str, and can ignore difficult terrain/allies when charging.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+30') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +8/+8/+8/+3/+3 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full rd action.
High Jump (+10/+30 with Ki point) (Ex) +10 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) Activate to negate a critical hit or sneak attack as an immediate action.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Cold Iron/Silver (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as cold iron and silver to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Slow Fall 50' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Stunning Fist (10/day, DC 18) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (1d10) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Vow of Silence (+1 Ki) The monk must speak no words and attempt to be quiet in his actions. Accidental noises and the sounds of battle (such as the sound of a fist or weapon striking an opponent) do not affect his vow, though most monks with this vow choose their weapons a
Vow of Truth (+2 Ki) The monk is not allowed to deliberately speak any lies, including bluffing, stating half-truths with the intent to deceive, exaggerating, telling white lies, and so on. This applies to all forms of communication. If presented with circumstances where
Wholeness of Body (10 Hp/use) (Su) Use 2 ki to heal own wounds as a standard action.
--------------------
APL+1
3((27*.65)+(23.5*.65*.1))+2((27*.4)+(23.5*.4*.1)
=
80.9925
APL
3((27*.7)+(23.5*.7>.1)+2((27*.45)+(23.5*.45*.1)
=
88.05
Human, no archetypes.
I would suggest adding at least Qinggong, and picking up Barkskin. Qinggong would also open the door to Arcane Strike, for those rounds you don't want to burn Ki.
If you have an arcane caster in your group. Pick up a pearl of power and have him share his Mage Armor with you.
The best unarmed monk in terms of raw damage? The sohei.
I respectfully disagree. The best pure unarmed monk in terms of damage is a Catfolk, or Human with Racial Heritage (Catfolk) monk with the Nimble Guardian Archetype.
Being able to self buff and turning yourself into a dire-tiger gives you the following:
1: 5 natural attacks on a charge, 4 of them claws.
This is great as with feral combat training, you are basically doing 4 unarmed strikes at full BaB, and you can tack on dragon style e.t.c.
And get this, they qualify naturally for improved natural attack. So bump them up even higher, damage wise.
2: Large Size
+4 to strength and +4 to natural armor is hard to argue with, and guess what, with large size, your unarmed strikes just increased their damage again!
So TL:DR, more unarmed strikes at higher BaB than a normal monk would get, higher damage unarmed strikes (not stopping at 1d8 like the Sohei, and you can buff it with improved natural attack)..
And you're a giant tiger. Just putting that out there.
Or you could just give in to the dark side and become a Monk/Druid like I keep suggesting to everyone. :)
prototype00
The best unarmed monk in terms of raw damage? The sohei.I respectfully disagree. The best pure unarmed monk in terms of damage is a Catfolk, or Human with Racial Heritage (Catfolk) monk with the Nimble Guardian Archetype.
Being able to self buff and turning yourself into a dire-tiger gives you the following:
1: 5 natural attacks on a charge, 4 of them claws.
This is great as with feral combat training, you are basically doing 4 unarmed strikes at full BaB, and you can tack on dragon style e.t.c.
And get this, they qualify naturally for improved natural attack. So bump them up even higher, damage wise.
2: Large Size
+4 to strength and +4 to natural armor is hard to argue with, and guess what, with large size, your unarmed strikes just increased their damage again!
So TL:DR, more unarmed strikes at higher BaB than a normal monk would get, higher damage unarmed strikes (not stopping at 1d8 like the Sohei, and you can buff it with improved natural attack)..
And you're a giant tiger. Just putting that out there.
Or you could just give in to the dark side and become a Monk/Druid like I keep suggesting to everyone. :)
prototype00
Not saying your points of the build's effectiveness are not true, but is that still an unarmed build? Or is it a natural attack build?
Plus, while it can be awesome, I don't think most people are looking to be a tiger when they are going for a build built around punches and kicks (at least a nonanthropomorphic one; I might not like Kungfu Panda, but unfortunately, due to the relative scarcity of martial arts movies in the major market these days, I suppose that it would have a large place in newer generations).
The best unarmed monk in terms of raw damage? The sohei.
The sohei has two main advantages over normal monks that allow them to do tons of damage- they can flurry in light armor, and they have weapon training.
Firstly, I will discuss armor. Now, this seems like it would merely increase a monk's defense (well, in reality it only simplifies it; you don't have to be MAD in order to get decent AC, and as such you can focus more on strength), but in fact, it creates a new item slot that can give you a rather nice boost. This is because of the Brawling armor property.. While this was likely designed as 'a nice thing that monks can't have', the sohei is in the right position to take full advantage of it. This armor property adds a straight, untyped, 'stacks with everything' +2 to attack and damage. Another interesting facet of this is that the cost of +1 Brawling armor is about the same as a +1 Amulet of Mighty fists (although it gives you twice the bonuses to attack and damage, and even gives you +1 AC). But that is just a nice little side benefit that helps you tide yourself over until your funds increase.
The second reason why sohei can do a ton of damage is because they have weapon training. This weapon training closely mirrors the fighter's, and overall gives you a +3 to attack and damage in the first weapon group you pick (monk weapons in this case). But the advantages of weapon training do not end there. Because it is literally called 'weapon training', the sohei can actually use items meant only for fighters that use the term as a prerequisite. I listed weapon training after armor because armor frees up your hands slot (normal monks tend to use bracers of armor), which allows you to grab Gloves of Dueling. This item increases the bonuses of weapon training by another +2
As you can see, this...
Sadly then you lose the movement speed and wisdom to AC bonus, though armor usually is a lot better but in this case it's only light armor.
Almost might as well then go Brawler/MoMS :( but on the other hand still has some of the monk tricks left.
Sohei doesn't really optimize for an unarmed monk. It does allow them to get Brawling armor, but so do bracers of armor, and Sohei stops advancing the monk's unarmed strike at 4th level, leaving it at 1d8 damage. This is because the Sohei is meant to allow monks to use martial weapons, not their fists like most monks.
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Mithral medium armor.Sadly then you lose the movement speed and wisdom to AC bonus, though armor usually is a lot better but in this case it's only light armor.
Almost might as well then go Brawler/MoMS :( but on the other hand still has some of the monk tricks left.
Still loses the movement and non proficient so the possibility of ACP being applied can be a problem.
Now Celestial (Chain) Armor is nice, sure you still lose the Wisdom bonus to AC, but you just pump your Dex over Wisdom anyway in this case, and you get the Fly 1x day. Assuming your DM allows you to upgrade named items, of course. (No joy in PFS in that case)
Sohei doesn't really optimize for an unarmed monk. It does allow them to get Brawling armor, but so do bracers of armor, and Sohei stops advancing the monk's unarmed strike at 4th level, leaving it at 1d8 damage. This is because the Sohei is meant to allow monks to use martial weapons, not their fists like most monks.
Not really....the brawling armor property specifically says this:
The wearer of brawling armor gains a +2 bonus on unarmed attack and damage rolls, including combat maneuver checks made to grapple. Her unarmed strikes count as magic weapons for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction. These bonuses do not apply to natural weapons. This special ability does not prevent the wearer's unarmed strikes from provoking attacks of opportunity or make the wearer's unarmed strikes count as armed attacks. The brawling ability can be applied only to light armor.
Unless the bracers of armor specifically say they qualify as light armor (which I do not see in their description), then only sohei can enjoy brawling. And that is why they can be just as great with unarmed strikes as they are regular weapons.
EDIT: Looked up the relevant supporting details. Here is Jason Bulmahn weighing in on the matter in a thread discussing the book where brawling came out.
Mithral medium armor.Sadly then you lose the movement speed and wisdom to AC bonus, though armor usually is a lot better but in this case it's only light armor.
Almost might as well then go Brawler/MoMS :( but on the other hand still has some of the monk tricks left.
Still loses the movement and non proficient so the possibility of ACP being applied can be a problem.
Now Celestial (Chain) Armor is nice, sure you still lose the Wisdom bonus to AC, but you just pump your Dex over Wisdom anyway in this case, and you get the Fly 1x day. Assuming your DM allows you to upgrade named items, of course. (No joy in PFS in that case)
It is actually not hard at all to grab mithral medium armor. In fact, it only requires a single trait: Armor Expert.
This is due to the fact that the penalty for nonproficient armor use is to apply the armor check penalty to your attack rolls. If ACP is 0, then the penalty is 0.
Mithral reduces ACP by 3. Armor expert reduces it by 1. That means you can grab any metal medium armor other than chainmail or Four-mirror (which each have an ACP of -5).
Not sure if they qualify for brawling either though, even with mithral.
Depends what setting you play. If (for instance), I was playing a Wrath of the Righteous AP, Id go Monk 5, Brother of the Seal 7, Evangelist of Irori 8, pick up the Orc Bloodline, Stonefist gloves and the Titan Strike mythic path ability, and hit 16d8 damage on your unarmed strike (12d8 @ lv 12 / mythic tier 5), which I guess is what you might be looking for when you say "unarmed killing machine".
For something like PFS, that "retires" at Lv 12, boosting your unarmed strike damage early enough to get use out of it is pretty difficult, so would potentially do the dips already outlined in the thread, such as Barbarian or Druid, or just dip cleric and flurry with a Scimitar or something.