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A viking should have Swim and Profession (sailor)This is just your assumption of how things should work. I know plenty of open sea fishermen that don't know how to swim.
See that thing you just did, where he was talking about a heroic viking, and you pretended he had been talking about a commoner fisherman?
"Zeus rewarded Tiresias with a life three times the norm as reward for ruling in his favour when he and Hera contested which of the sexes gained the most pleasure from the act of love."
I'm not gonna lie, guys. Zeus is sounding more and more like your typical player character as I read this stuff.
Through trickery mind. Not single combat.
Also, check your myth knowledge again-- Zeus defeats Chronos, King of the Titans SOLO to free the other Olympians before the war."Zeus released the brothers of Cronus, the Gigantes, the Hecatonchires and the Cyclopes, from their dungeon in Tartarus"
He had Cyclopses on his side, that war was a sham.
When quoting from Wikipedia in the future to support your point, you might want to read the entire article so as not to miss a key piece that undermines the thrust of your argument. Namely, this:
After reaching manhood, Zeus forced Cronus to disgorge first the stone (which was set down at Pytho under the glens of Parnassus to be a sign to mortal men, the Omphalos) then his siblings in reverse order of swallowing. In some versions, Metis gave Cronus an emetic to force him to disgorge the babies, or Zeus cut Cronus' stomach open. Then Zeus released the brothers of Cronus, the Gigantes, the Hecatonchires and the Cyclopes, from their dungeon in Tartarus, killing their guard, Campe.
So, before acquiring the powers of thunder and lightning, before gaining dominion over the air and heavens, before becoming king of the gods, he does all this. He descends into the underworld, forces Cronus into submission and/or cuts him open to retrieve his siblings, then kills a deadly half-dragon / half-chimera lady thing tasked by the ruler of the universe to guard a whole army. Yes, Zeus had a lot of help in the war, but he wouldn't have been able to gather that help in the first place to stand a chance of winning if he wasn't a certified bad-ass. That's probably why WotC classified him with something like 80 hit dice in the 3.5 deities book, with a divine rank of 17 (which carries HUGE god-like powers).
Look, it's very fun to play to the 'wizards are literal gods' game, but let's not kid ourselves. Mythology has set the standard for actual deity power a little higher than Elminster or Razmir ever made it.
I don't see why not? 2 Miles is a long distance. 10 minutes here, 10 minutes there. Boom, tornados aplenty.
Control Weather lets you control a tiny little bit of weather in one place for a short time. It doesn't make you the person who decides which countries get rain today and which don't.
According to Wikipedia, Greece has an area of 50,949 square miles. Divided by the spell's area of 2^2 * pi miles = 4,054.4 castings, which at 10 minutes each is 675.7 hours (assuming he doesn't need to rest). That's just for one country, not the whole world.
At that rate, most of the farmers are going to be waiting a long time to get their rain!
I like to think that if you build up enough, it causes an isolated climate change. It'd be pretty hard to contain all that rain in a 2 mile radius without wind pushing it outside of that.
I like to think that if you build up enough, it causes an isolated climate change. It'd be pretty hard to contain all that rain in a 2 mile radius without wind pushing it outside of that.
The spell does what the spell does. No more, no less.
Wasn't Zeus afraid of the Kraken because that thing was too powerful for the gods to deal with?
Wasn't Zeus afraid of the Kraken because that thing was too powerful for the gods to deal with?
Poseidon ordered it around. I don't imagine his big brother Zeus would have batted an eye if it had gotten an attitude with him.
I dunno... The gods feared the Kraken. It might have obeyed Poseidon like a tamed bear obeys the man who raised it.
Anyway, there will never be a perfect a match for game rules and fiction/mythology, but it seems a 13th-ish level druid comes pretty close to matching Zeus' deeds.
Wasn't Zeus afraid of the Kraken because that thing was too powerful for the gods to deal with?Poseidon ordered it around. I don't imagine his big brother Zeus would have batted an eye if it had gotten an attitude with him.
Poseidon and Hades all were brothers of arguably equal power, the only thing is the domain of air was the most powerful domain. Hades the older brother, who got the domain of earth was mighty annoyed by this.
I dunno... The gods feared the Kraken. It might have obeyed Poseidon like a tamed bear obeys the man who raised it.
Anyway, there will never be a perfect a match for game rules and fiction/mythology, but it seems a 13th-ish level druid comes pretty close to matching Zeus' deeds.
Let me know when 13th level druids can throw mountains at their foes.
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I dunno... The gods feared the Kraken. It might have obeyed Poseidon like a tamed bear obeys the man who raised it.
Anyway, there will never be a perfect a match for game rules and fiction/mythology, but it seems a 13th-ish level druid comes pretty close to matching Zeus' deeds.
The gods feared releasing the Kraken upon mortal society. . . you know, because some of them didn't just want to let it kill everyone?
They weren't afraid that the Kraken would/could kill them, they were afraid of the consequences of letting it loose and turning their backs on it and what it would do.
So far the only evidence to support Zeus being a level 13 Druid is Anzyr saying "No, those Titans were lower CR" and "No that 9th level spell was probably just this other lower level spell"
Whereas in favor of a much more powerful Zeus we have:
1. Soloed Cronus King of the Titans to make him spit up his siblings
2. Summoned/controlled Kraken (CR 18)
3. Destroyed an entire city state with a single casting of a spell-- clearly Storm of Vengeance at a minimum (9th level) if not some more powerful spell
4. Pretty clear that the Greek Gods had Teleport Greater since they appear anywhere they want when they want
5. Zeus created stars and or turned people into stars
6. Zeus could cause the entire world including the heavens and the underworld to shake with a clap of his hand
7. he "Piled the highest mountain" upon one of his foes
That list is not exhaustive. Zeus did a lot moire than turn into a swan-- some of you are trying to use the powers he used to seduce ladies as his full list of what he could do. Go read the stories where he was actually fighting, not getting laid.
Regarding Xenophanes' theology five key concepts about God can be formed. God is: beyond human morality, does not resemble human form, cannot die or be born (God is divine thus eternal), no divine hierarchy exists, and God does not intervene in human affairs.[22] While Xenophanes is rejecting Homeric theology, he is not questioning the presence of a divine entity, rather his philosophy is a critique on Ancient Greek writers and their conception of divinity[23] There is also the concept of God being whole with the universe, essentially controlling it, while at the same time being physically unconnected.[22]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophanes
No offense, this is attempting to apply a monotheistic approach to a strictly polytheistic world. There is, without a doubt in golorion, more than 1 god.
Further, I read the page. What are the basis of his requirements of divinity? What is his rational?
Furthermore, I have a problem with his espousal of "there is truth but we cannot know it." It screams to me, "Take my word for it!"
He's just some old pre-Socratic back when most philosophers wrote in poetry.
What I find more interesting about him, was that if he was a cleric in a PF world, he would conclude that the pantheon was false and instead worship the idea of an entity like the GM.
I don't understand his rational, but to me it is impressive that he would be right. None of the PF Gods really qualify as Divines, the true deity in every game is the GM.
So as expected, this thread devolved into another caster vs martial thread, instead of actually talking about changes that could be made to either side.
To continue the above tangent however, just a few notes:
Why do people keep talking about Zeus releasing a Kraken? and then bringing up stuff from mythology? Guys...Kraken is from Norse Mythology...Zeus only ever released a "Kraken" in movies, because the Kraken wasn't part of Greek myth. Zeus/Poseidon did at times unleash sea monsters (Ceto, etc), but none of them have Pathfinder stats.
Zeus did slay Campe to release the cyclops and hetancheires (sp?). Campe is a Drakaina, which in Bestiary 4 is I think CR 22 (and Campe being a legendary one could very well have additional class/template levels)
Not that I think these discussions have absolutely any utility at all. Because as it turns out, mythology/comics/novels were not written with a rpg rule set in mind. If an rpg can't emulate certain ideas presented in those mediums, than either you are using the wrong rpg or it's a failing of the system.
I dunno... The gods feared the Kraken. It might have obeyed Poseidon like a tamed bear obeys the man who raised it.
Anyway, there will never be a perfect a match for game rules and fiction/mythology, but it seems a 13th-ish level druid comes pretty close to matching Zeus' deeds.
The gods feared releasing the Kraken upon mortal society. . . you know, because some of them didn't just want to let it kill everyone?
They weren't afraid that the Kraken would/could kill them, they were afraid of the consequences of letting it loose and turning their backs on it and what it would do.
So far the only evidence to support Zeus being a level 13 Druid is Anzyr saying "No, those Titans were lower CR" and "No that 9th level spell was probably just this other lower level spell"
Whereas in favor of a much more powerful Zeus we have:
1. Soloed Cronus King of the Titans to make him spit up his siblings
2. Summoned/controlled Kraken (CR 18)
3. Destroyed an entire city state with a single casting of a spell-- clearly Storm of Vengeance at a minimum (9th level) if not some more powerful spell
4. Pretty clear that the Greek Gods had Teleport Greater since they appear anywhere they want when they want
5. Zeus created stars and or turned people into stars
6. Zeus could cause the entire world including the heavens and the underworld to shake with a clap of his hand
7. he "Piled the highest mountain" upon one of his foesThat list is not exhaustive. Zeus did a lot moire than turn into a swan-- some of you are trying to use the powers he used to seduce ladies as his full list of what he could do. Go read the stories where he was actually fighting, not getting laid.
Here's the thing... like wratihstrike said upthread, no conversion from literature to Pathfinder is going to be perfect. The Titans you keep going on about about never cast meteor swarm to my knowledge. Why? Because the match isn't perfect. The same thing with Zeus. Zeus isn't 20th level because he can't create planes of existence. A 17th level Wizard can create his world that follows his rules. Zeus can't do that. Zeus also can't make copies of himself. Or make clones in the event of his death. He can't disjoin magic. You really want to put him on the same level as a person who can literally create worlds?
Dotting for later.
New worlds? Please. Zeus made entirely new STARS. Can a wizard create new stars? No? Guess they're not on Zeus' level then.
You know who really wins at Armor use? Druids. They get to use fullplate in addition to all the DEX bonus they can muster. (Btw, if you don't know why this is, please consider not continuing this conversation.)
If you're referring to using wild armor while wildshaped, that is a really expensive enchantment that does you absolutely no good if you aren't wild-shaped. It's high price tag and form limitations keep it from being unbalanced. It's not even readily available for crafting until about 8th-level, or for purchasing until about 11-level, if your GM is following the wealth-by-level guidelines. And that's just for a +1 armor!
New worlds? Please. Zeus made entirely new STARS. Can a wizard create new stars? No? Guess they're not on Zeus' level then.Oh how I wish upon a star...
wait that's not a star?
WISH.
There we go, now it is.
So Zeus has access to Wish then? Well, if he can pull off that degree of difficulty with arcane magic at a whim, he must be able to use it for absolutely any spell ever. Sounds like he's at least 20th level to me, probably much much higher in order to consistently avoid the Wishes going awry.
I also don't believe for a moment that spell storing weapons use the caster level of the weapon itself. Not only would that vary wildly from weapon to weapon, it would make the enchantment essentially useless. If one interpretation makes a rule or ability useless, and the other doesn't, I like to think the developers intended you to follow the latter.
I am not sure what you mean by form limitations?
I am mostly referring to size and weight. The best wildshape combat forms in which you'd want the high AC are often very large, and as such don't work out so well in caves, small dwellings, on river rafts, rope bridges, etc.
In short, a druid trying to "abuse" wild full plate would have to make a significant investment, and wouldn't even be able to use it all of the time.
In contrast, a fighter of equivalent level would have armor which grants +3 higher AC and could wear it in nearly any situation. Also, saying the druid gets full Dexterity bonus isn't a big deal since the fighter gets armor training and can afford to get mithral with all that money that the druid spent on the wild enchantment.
EDIT: Staying in a large or huge wild-shape form poses other problems as well, such as allies being able to cast feather fall or teleport on you in an emergency.
So Zeus has access to Wish then? Well, if he can pull off that degree of difficulty with arcane magic at a whim, he must be able to use it for absolutely any spell ever. Sounds like he's at least 20th level to me, probably much much higher in order to consistently avoid the Wishes going awry.New worlds? Please. Zeus made entirely new STARS. Can a wizard create new stars? No? Guess they're not on Zeus' level then.Oh how I wish upon a star...
wait that's not a star?
WISH.
There we go, now it is.
You asked if a wizard could. I said how. :P lol
Besides, wishes don't naturally go awry in a world without a gm. Thats more of a gm thing than anything else.
I was using your comment as proof that this 'Zeus is a level 13 druid' mentality is baloney, that's all.
Personally, I still say that's impossible because Wish can't normally duplicate even a Create Greater Demiplane spell without a LOT of wrangling. Stars are not only so much larger than a max level greater demiplane that we don't have a number to use as the multiplier, instead needing to fall back on scientific notation, they act as constant portals to the positive energy plane. The wizard also seems to be exercising time travel magic, which according to Paizo is impossible in Pathfinder. Reason being, the light from that star he created? It would have had to leave many many MANY years ago to show up that suddenly on Earth.
Wish outright says it's dangerous to go outside the 10 specified uses of the spell. APs, modules, and Golarion lore also have examples of Wishes from users who thought they could bend reality without a care going horribly awry. That's practically the whole reason Glabrezus exist. So, apparently your supposition that 9th level god magic never goes awry unless there's a GM present it just plain wrong.
