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Persistent Spell (Metamagic)You can modify a spell to become more tenacious when its targets resist its effect.
Benefit: Whenever a creature targeted by a persistent spell or within its area succeeds on its saving throw against the spell, it must make another saving throw against the effect. If a creature fails this second saving throw, it suffers the full effects of the spell, as if it had failed its first saving throw. A persistent spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.
Spells that do not require a saving throw to resist or lessen the spell's effect do not benefit from this feat.
If a spell has ongoing effects that require saves, are those also affected?
Example: A Persistent Glitterdust spell. Does the target need to make 2 saves each round, taking the worse value to get rid of the blindness?
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Glitterdust
Save Will negates (blinding only); SR no
A cloud of golden particles covers everyone and everything in the area, causing creatures to become blinded and visibly outlining invisible things for the duration of the spell. All within the area are covered by the dust, which cannot be removed and continues to sparkle until it fades. Each round at the end of their turn blinded creatures may attempt new saving throws to end the blindness effect.
As I see it, it affect only the initial ST. After the initial casting the target is no longer resisting the spell, only a residual condition.
The area of effect of glittedust count only during the first round, after that entering or leaving the area don't have any affect. If a creature was in the area when the spell was cast it is covered by the dust, if it enter the area the following round it is not covered.
So the duration is only for the effects, not for the spell and the save in the following rounds is against the effect, not the spell.
As English isn't my native language, explaining my reasoning isn't easy in this situation. I hope I was clear enough.
I can buy that for removing the condition caused by a spell. What if it is still the same actual spell.
Example 2: What if someone stays in the area affected by a Persistent Entangle spell (or Stinking Cloud)? That is not a condition? The spell has vines and branches still grabbing at anyone in reach.
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I can buy that for removing the condition caused by a spell. What if it is still the same actual spell.
Example 2: What if someone stays in the area affected by a Persistent Entangle spell (or Stinking Cloud)? That is not a condition? The spell has vines and branches still grabbing at anyone in reach.
As I see it you save against the entangle spell every round, so your save would be affected by the persistent metamagic.
The basic test for me is: if you enter the spell area of effect after it has been cast, you need to save again? If the reply is yes you are saving against the spell, if the reply is no it is a effect of the spell or a condition, but it is not the spell, so your save is not affected by the persistent metamagic.After the initial casting the target is no longer resisting the spell, only a residual condition.Diego's statement is interesting and merits some consideration, but I'm not so sure. However, the glitterdust spell is not an easy one to discuss because it has an initial burst effect that cause the blind condition.
Let's look at hold person, which targets one creature and gives the paralyzed condition. Thus a similar situation without an initial burst but an ongoing effect. I believe it will answer the OP's question...
In our group, our interpretation is that metamagic feats affect a spell and basically make it more potent (well technically)...Therefore, if you have a persistent Hold person, the target rolls 2 saves the first round.
On the second round, the spells has not reduced in power or efficiency; it is still a persistent spell. The effect of the spell is to give the paralyzed condition, but it's the spell that is going that condition, and I believe that is against the spell that the target saves not against the condition.
In fact, maybe this is the key here to answer the question. Is the second save made to stop the spell or to remove a condition?
thoughts?
Hmmm, tricky.
The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A winged creature who is paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can't swim and may drown.
It applies a condition but ... your interpretation feel right. On the other hand if we read the metamagic ability verbatim, it will not work that way.
Persistent Spell (Metamagic)
You can modify a spell to become more tenacious when its targets resist its effect.
Benefit: Whenever a creature targeted by a persistent spell or within its area succeeds on its saving throw against the spell, it must make another saving throw against the effect. If a creature fails this second saving throw, it suffers the full effects of the spell, as if it had failed its first saving throw. A persistent spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.
Spells that do not require a saving throw to resist or lessen the spell's effect do not benefit from this feat.
Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
If the target of a spell is yourself (the Target line of the spell description includes “You”), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The saving throw and spell resistance lines are omitted from such spells.
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
You target someone with a spell when you cast it. After you have cast it, he isn't anymore a target. he is under the effect of the spell, but that is a different thing.
If that wasn't true you had to satisfy the conditions to target someone for the full duration of the spell. So casting hold person on someone and then leaving the room would break the spell.
I don't know if that was what the feat writer intended, but as written the persistent metamagic is applied only when you target the spell or when someone is in the area of effect of a spell with a non instantaneous duration.
Spells that allow multiple saves are not nearly as common as those that give only one save, so likely this question was not thought of or it would have been answered in the feat itself. I would FAQ it.
Spells that allow multiple saves are not nearly as common as those that give only one save, so likely this question was not thought of or it would have been answered in the feat itself. I would FAQ it.
Yeah, but they tend to be spells I really like. =)
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It has never come up for me before. I've rarely seen anyone use the Persistent Spell feat even though everyone says it is so great and very nearly a must have. The couple people I saw using it are preety much just blaster casters using it on things like fireball.
My PFS sorcerer just took it as his 9th level feet and I have a few poetntially multiple save spells like grease, spiked pit, and glitterdust. And I was considering getting a few more like stinking cloud, charm person, and hold monster.
Plus my druid whose wisdom isn't real high and doesn't have spell focus was considering it for later in his build to try and get a few more of his spels sticking to the targets (like entangle).
I was going to cast a persistent glitterdust last weekend and suddenly realized I wasn't sure how it would work. (Monsters all died before my initiative so it never quite came up.)
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Spells that allow multiple saves are not nearly as common as those that give only one save, so likely this question was not thought of or it would have been answered in the feat itself. I would FAQ it.
Put a link here if you do that. Writing a good FAQ for that isn't easy and I would like to click on it.