Okay, so... A lot of the prestige classes have some excellent flavor, and typically wind up weaker than straight base class in the long run, yes?
I get the feeling this would be rather busted with larger parties with larger action economy, but I find myself gaming with only 2 players lately, sometimes 3. So I'm thinking of introducing a house rule I've been toying around with in my head.
This does nothing for the action economy, really, but it adds a bit of 'oomph' to their survivability, I think. Which, yes, includes offing the bad guys.
Basically, you earmark a prestige class that interests you. As soon as you qualify for it mechanically, you attain it, and begin advancing in it alongside your primary leveling. In effect, you 'gestalt' the prestige onto your character.
The way I'm thinking of working the mechanics are as follows. I'll use Wizard that has just attained Agent of the Grave for the example.
HP: Add the prestige's hit die to what you roll on level up (d6+d8+con)
BAB: Add the prestige's BAB, to a maximum of your character level. This does increase your number of attacks as per usual. (wizard 3 + AotG 0 = +3)
Skills: Add class skills, and the skill points. (2+4+int)
Saves: Add saves together, up to a maximum of you "good" rating for your level.
Prestige Class abilities: Gain at listed levels.
Spells per Day/etc: Adds for the chosen class up to your character level. IE, a Wizard that multi-classes into fighter after attaining Agent of the Grave will gain 5 more levels in their spell casting over 5 levels due to Agent of the Grave.
That's about it in a nutshell. Primarily designed to give my smaller (actually very tiny) parties more survivability. Initially I was just thinking of adding everything period, up until +12 on saves, +20 on BAB, and whatever your max for your level is in spell casting, to basically reach the 'caps' in those earlier than 20th level.
If I were to scale it for bigger parties, I'd run it more or less the same, except that spells per day/etc doesn't add, and the prestige's BAB is an additional bonus to a max of your character level that does not add to the number of attacks. Not sure yet though.
Anyone think this'll be adequate? I happen to like this idea a lot. I would like to do this for most of my future campaigns (I don't know a single group that wouldn't enjoy a 'free' prestige class). Just need to iron out the bugs.
Mainly, just curious for feedback, and suggestions to iron out the thorny details.
First, the most important thing that springs out at me, is that everything should be capped based on character level, not just BAB. A caster should not be able to use this to increase their casting beyond their character level, because that would be insane.
Does this mean that a wizard can go 9 levels of fighter and 11 levels of wizard while taking the eldritch knight prestige class (with a max BAB of 18, I guess) and still get 20 levels of wizard casting?
Or is it even worse than that? Could a magus go into arcane archer (or any class really; collegiate arcanist or cypher mage) and eventually get full BAB?
I feel like several things are unclear and this opens the game to some pretty nightmarish builds. Many funky rules can work if nobody is trying to game it, though.
I feel like using the actual gestalt rules for the prcs is not quite as difficult to acount for.
I feel like using the actual gestalt rules for the prcs is not quite as difficult to acount for.
Yes, but the OP wants to encourage the use of PrCs; gestalt rules just discourage them even further.
I feel like using the actual gestalt rules for the prcs is not quite as difficult to acount for.Yes, but the OP wants to encourage the use of PrCs; gestalt rules just discourage them even further.
im saying granting the prc as a gestalt at the appropriate levels, not another class.
Ah! Clever, and a nice, simple idea. And since gestalt by definition takes the best from each, this would prevent having the base class and the prestige class both advance the same spellcasting.
Ah! Clever, and a nice, simple idea. And since gestalt by definition takes the best from each, this would prevent having the base class and the prestige class both advance the same spellcasting.
yep, if you let stuff stack like what the op has, then you got stuff like cleric/hellknight signifiers with near to full bab.
I like the concept, PrCs dont get the love they deserve 99% of the time. I do think that this might lead to some extraordinarily heinous builds, like using Evangelist.
Ah, beautiful. I'm already imagining Paladin/Oracle/Evangelist combinations.
How about: Paladin 1 / Oracle 4 for the first five levels. After that, Paladin / Evangelist Gestalt, with Oracle being the aligned class.
Overall, the paladin abilities are at character level -4, Oracle abilities are at character level -2 (take Magical Knack trait to keep caster level full), BAB is at character level -1. For every level after 5th, you're getting good saves for everything (paladin has will and fort, evangelist has reflex), 6+INT skill points, d10hp.
... *facepalm* And how did I not think of just using the gestalt rules before? That's pretty much what I was going for here. Not entirely sure how I forgot about them X_X.
So, yeah, there ya go.
Also, it seems I forgot to mention that everything pretty much caps out at character level 20. Prestige class levels via this "free gestalting" don't add to your character level.
ANYHOW! Clarified (and lightly revised) Bonus prestige rules! NOTE: This version is designed for parties with less than 4 members. The kinds that need a bit of extra help since they're not ultra-power-god-gaming... Designed mostly for my less-than-optimized players, considering I've gained a bit of a reputation for being brutal. And frankly, I feel like it lets you simulate the 'above 20th level' without having to get to 20th level, or dealing with the hyper game-breaking elements found therein. Half gestalt, half 'epic'.
A character gains a bonus prestige class as soon a they qualify for it. They must choose what their bonus prestige class will be at least 1 level before they attain their first level in said prestige class. The DM has final say on what is or isn't allowed for a character to take in their campaign.
Prestige Class Level: You may only advance in your chosen prestige class to it's maximum level. For example, 10 for Mystic theurge, 5 for Agent of the Grave, 3 for Chevalier, etc.
Character Level: Base classes only, the bonus prestige does not add to this.
Hit Dice: Add the prestige's hit die to your hit die roll. Base class + Prestige Class + Modifiers, so a Fighter/Golden Legionnaire would get d10 + d10 + Con modifier.
BAB: Add BAB to a maximum of your character level. This does not grant you iterative attacks, it is merely an addition to your BAB. You gain additional attacks via BAB at your usual base class' progression.
Saves: Add PrC's saves to your base class' save bonuses, to a maximum of "good" rating for your character level, so no more than +12 to a base save at 20th level.
Skills & Skill Points: Prestige class skills are treated as Class Skills as per usual. Add the PrC's skill points to the number of skill points gained at each level. Using the example above, the Fighter/Golden Legionnaire would attain 2 + 2 + Int mod per level.
Spells: The Prestige Class does not add to your spell progression, spells per day, spells known, etc, under normal circumstances. When a character gains their bonus PrC, they choose one spell casting class they had prior to gaining the PrC, even if they only have 1 class upon gaining the PrC. If the character multi-classes, follow all rules for the PrC's Spells section, to a maximum of your character level, on a 1-1 level basis.
-Example: A Sorcerer decides they want to go into the Bloatmage PrC. At 5th level, they declare they're going to be going into Bloatmage as soon as they qualify for it at 6th. Upon attaining 6th level, they gain the Bloatmage PrC, and follow all the rules presented here. Spell casting does not increase. They advance 3 more levels, before deciding that they need a bit more melee potential. Next level, they pick up Magus. Thus, the Bloatmage PrC advances their spell casting in their Sorcerer class as in it's rules for 1 level. Finding themselves enjoying the abilities of a Magus, they continue on this track until level 16. The 10 levels of Bloatmage have added to the Sorcerer progression until this point as per usual. As soon as our sorcerer-turned-magus attains 17th level, their sorcerer progression stops, as they have already capped out their Bloatmage levels, thus if they were to go to 20th, they'd only be casting as a 16th level in their sorcerer spell casting (while having none of the extra bloodline spells as per usual), and 11th level magus.
Class Abilities: Gain all class abilities at the given level in addition to everything from your base class.
A note on retraining: A character cannot retrain their bonus prestige class levels. Retraining base class levels with spell casting into another class level, does not allow one to add their PrC's casting progression to their chosen casting class, effectively losing that level forever (until re-trained back into it). This is primarily for balance purposes. One can also never retrain options that would disqualify you from your bonus prestige.
Was the spell casting example simple enough to understand? Again, that one's mainly for the smaller parties of non-power-gamers that need a little help thanks to action economy problems (as I find when running APs for my 2 person group). If you want high powered characters
Here's an alternate solution, based on the suggestions given above. For those with the types of gamers who's characters don't actually need that extra little push, but you'd like to use the bonus PrC's anyways...
A character gains a bonus prestige class as soon a they qualify for it. They must choose what their bonus prestige class will be at least 1 level before they attain their first level in said prestige class. The DM has final say on what is or isn't allowed for a character to take in their campaign.
Apply basic Gestalt rules as normal. Take the best hit die, BAB/Save progression, and skill points of the base class or the PrC. PrC class skills are obviously treated as class skills for the character. Spell casting progression does not add, stack, give bonuses, etc. Add all class abilities from the PrC as levels are gained as normal.
I may or may not have half-assed that one. Wasn't totally feeling it, but thought I'd summarize the basic idea anyways.
So.. Yeah. I initially batted this idea around as a way to get the feel of epic level play I (and most of my previous players pre-move) wanted, without actually dealing with the weird epic level crap going on. I realized the stacking would also add some much needed assistance to smaller groups facing large amounts of enemies. The extra HP, while being considered high-powered over all, adds that bit of survivability against half the dungeon that the screaming barbarian attracted while raging at the five mooks in the antechamber.
Feel free to throw more mooks at your players with this variant. Lord knows they should be able to handle it. What player doesn't like the feeling of wading through swathes of minions like all those heroes of fiction (Looking at you, half the cast of LOTR).
EDIT!: This idea was not meant to be tacked on with basic gestalt.. Feel free if you wanna get your "OMFGPOWER" on though.