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Guy Humual wrote:Why are you so sure that Hamas is a terrorist organization? They don't seem to be behaving any differently than the Israeli government and most people don't call the Israeli government a terrorist organization.
No, I'm pretty sure Hamas is a terrorist organization, the question is would they exist if Israel hadn't been so aggressive in it's seizure of land and restrictive control of imports and exports?
Do you have proof that members of Israel's government capture and kill Palestinian teenagers, because Hamas has admitted that the kidnappings were the work of their members? If not, I assume you'll be retracting your comments.

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The things brought in through these tunnels is neither contraband nor done through smuggling. The tunnels themselves are not illegal.
The tunnels do not lead from Gaza to enemy territory. The lead from Gaza to Palestinian lands that were stolen from them at gunpoint and now occupied by Israelis.
Hamas is only a "terrorist organization" because that is what they are labeled by those who wish to vilify their efforts in defending their lands from occupiers who are stealing the lands at gunpoint.
Territory that they, themselves stole from the Israelis, who stole it from the people who inhabited it before them, etc. What makes Palestinian claim to the land more legitimate than Israel's?

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Guy Humual wrote:Why are you so sure that Hamas is a terrorist organization? They don't seem to be behaving any differently than the Israeli government and most people don't call the Israeli government a terrorist organization.
No, I'm pretty sure Hamas is a terrorist organization, the question is would they exist if Israel hadn't been so aggressive in it's seizure of land and restrictive control of imports and exports?
I'm not going to suggest that I approve of the conservative Israeli government, they're pretty much the reason why we have groups like Hamas, but just because we have one group behaving badly it doesn't excuse the actions of the other.

thejeff |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Pink Dragon wrote:Do you have proof that members of Israel's government capture and kill Palestinian teenagers, because Hamas has admitted that the kidnappings were the work of their members? If not, I assume you'll be retracting your comments.Guy Humual wrote:Why are you so sure that Hamas is a terrorist organization? They don't seem to be behaving any differently than the Israeli government and most people don't call the Israeli government a terrorist organization.
No, I'm pretty sure Hamas is a terrorist organization, the question is would they exist if Israel hadn't been so aggressive in it's seizure of land and restrictive control of imports and exports?
Of course they don't kidnap Palestinian teenagers. They arrest them. There's a huge difference.
When they don't just shoot them, that is.

Pink Dragon |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not going to suggest that I approve of the conservative Israeli government, they're pretty much the reason why we have groups like Hamas, but just because we have one group behaving badly it doesn't excuse the actions of the other.
Palestinians are fighting for their homes and existence. They have a right to do that.

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ShadowcatX wrote:Pink Dragon wrote:Do you have proof that members of Israel's government capture and kill Palestinian teenagers, because Hamas has admitted that the kidnappings were the work of their members? If not, I assume you'll be retracting your comments.Guy Humual wrote:Why are you so sure that Hamas is a terrorist organization? They don't seem to be behaving any differently than the Israeli government and most people don't call the Israeli government a terrorist organization.
No, I'm pretty sure Hamas is a terrorist organization, the question is would they exist if Israel hadn't been so aggressive in it's seizure of land and restrictive control of imports and exports?Of course they don't kidnap Palestinian teenagers. They arrest them. There's a huge difference.
When they don't just shoot them, that is.
Do you think the teenagers Hamas killed would rather have been kidnapped or arrested?

meatrace |

You're the one making the claim that the terrorist organization that was using the illegal tunnels into enemy territory for humanitarian purposes, the onus to provide proof is on you. I don't have to disprove anything.
No, I'm arguing that the democratically elected government of some-odd million people is using tunnels to do illegal things that INCLUDE both humanitarian aid (smuggling of contraband i.e. food and medical supplies) as WELL as using them to coordinate rocket strikes on Israel.
What you're saying is preposterous, that tunnels (how many are there? dozens? hundreds?) are used SOLELY to ferry militants into areas to conduct rocket attacks, which happens relatively rarely, and are NEVER used to actually smuggle anything of any kind ever ever ever period.

thejeff |
thejeff wrote:Do you think the teenagers Hamas killed would rather have been kidnapped or arrested?ShadowcatX wrote:Pink Dragon wrote:Do you have proof that members of Israel's government capture and kill Palestinian teenagers, because Hamas has admitted that the kidnappings were the work of their members? If not, I assume you'll be retracting your comments.Guy Humual wrote:No, I'm pretty sure Hamas is a terrorist organization, the question is would they exist if Israel hadn't been so aggressive in it's seizure of land and restrictive control of imports and exports?Why are you so sure that Hamas is a terrorist organization? They don't seem to be behaving any differently than the Israeli government and most people don't call the Israeli government a terrorist organization.Of course they don't kidnap Palestinian teenagers. They arrest them. There's a huge difference.
When they don't just shoot them, that is.
I'm sure they would rather not have been killed. Other than that, there's not a lot of difference.

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Israel takes more land.
Hamas has said the teens were abducted by Hamas militants.

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ShadowcatX wrote:You're the one making the claim that the terrorist organization that was using the illegal tunnels into enemy territory for humanitarian purposes, the onus to provide proof is on you. I don't have to disprove anything.No, I'm arguing that the democratically elected government of some-odd million people is using tunnels to do illegal things that INCLUDE both humanitarian aid (smuggling of contraband i.e. food and medical supplies) as WELL as using them to coordinate rocket strikes on Israel.
What you're saying is preposterous, that tunnels (how many are there? dozens? hundreds?) are used SOLELY to ferry militants into areas to conduct rocket attacks, which happens relatively rarely, and are NEVER used to actually smuggle anything of any kind ever ever ever period.
Oh really? I said that huh? How about providing a quote of me saying that? That would be awesome.

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ShadowcatX wrote:I'm sure they would rather not have been killed. Other than that, there's not a lot of difference.thejeff wrote:Do you think the teenagers Hamas killed would rather have been kidnapped or arrested?ShadowcatX wrote:Pink Dragon wrote:Do you have proof that members of Israel's government capture and kill Palestinian teenagers, because Hamas has admitted that the kidnappings were the work of their members? If not, I assume you'll be retracting your comments.Guy Humual wrote:No, I'm pretty sure Hamas is a terrorist organization, the question is would they exist if Israel hadn't been so aggressive in it's seizure of land and restrictive control of imports and exports?Why are you so sure that Hamas is a terrorist organization? They don't seem to be behaving any differently than the Israeli government and most people don't call the Israeli government a terrorist organization.Of course they don't kidnap Palestinian teenagers. They arrest them. There's a huge difference.
When they don't just shoot them, that is.
Do you think the kidnapped victims were given due process? Were they given a phone call you think? Allowed access to a lawyer? Given bail?

BigNorseWolf |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |

Do you think the teenagers Hamas killed would rather have been kidnapped or arrested?
Israel has killed a lot more palastinian teenagers than vice versa.
You're the one making the claim that the terrorist organization that was using the illegal tunnels into enemy territory for humanitarian purposes, the onus to provide proof is on you. I don't have to disprove anything.
We've repeatedly said that they're multi use. You could just ask people to cite that they're being used for food*, which is a valid request
To many Palestinians in Gaza, however, the primary objective of the tunnels, some of which are miles long, is less about military assaults and more about a connection to the outside world — a conduit through which groceries and other goods can enter the besieged Gaza Strip.
But it's not just chicken making its way through the tunnels. Everyday goods, doctors and even brides have been smuggled from Egypt through the network of tunnels into Gaza, a small strip of land that has effectively been isolated from the rest of the world since Israel and Egypt closed their borders in 2007, after Hamas took control of Gaza.
Until recently, though, the tunnels extended only into Egypt and were used mainly to smuggle in consumer goods. Because of the Israeli blockade of Gaza, introduced when Hamas won elections in 2007 and relaxed only recently, many items—foodstuffs, gas, clothing, cars—were unavailable through normal trade.
The tunnels, under the town of Rafah, are used to transfer food, fuel and consumer products into the densely populated Palestinian enclave.
Read more: Egypt destroys 1,370 Gaza smuggling tunnels | The Times of Israel
*please note: this os not "only for food". Big difference

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Please note the tunnels your article discusses are the ones going into Egypt, not the ones going into Israel. It is a lot easier to smuggle in a country that isn't quite as hostile, and uch harder to use tunnels that go away from your foe to attack said foe.
Never the less, I don't disbelieve that some food travelled through them, smuggling anything is big money. Including slaves, or brides, as your article so delicately puts it. Just because food got smuggled doesn't mean it was given away.

BigNorseWolf |

Please note the tunnels your article discusses are the ones going into Egypt, not the ones going into Israel. It is a lot easier to smuggle in a country that isn't quite as hostile, and much harder to use tunnels that go away from your foe to attack said foe.
Which so far have all been military targets, which the palastinians have every justification for doing.
Never the less, I don't disbelieve that some food travelled through them, smuggling anything is big money. Including slaves, or brides, as your article so delicately puts it. Just because food got smuggled doesn't mean it was given away.
Who claimed it was being given away?

BigNorseWolf |

I supose as one of Israel's supporters generally I should mention that I think this land grab is a ridiculously bad idea and that nothing good will come from it.
Ok, now the hard part.
What can the palastinians do about it, what should they do about it, and what are they morally allowed to do about it?

thejeff |
thejeff wrote:Do you think the kidnapped victims were given due process? Were they given a phone call you think? Allowed access to a lawyer? Given bail?ShadowcatX wrote:I'm sure they would rather not have been killed. Other than that, there's not a lot of difference.thejeff wrote:Do you think the teenagers Hamas killed would rather have been kidnapped or arrested?ShadowcatX wrote:Pink Dragon wrote:Do you have proof that members of Israel's government capture and kill Palestinian teenagers, because Hamas has admitted that the kidnappings were the work of their members? If not, I assume you'll be retracting your comments.Guy Humual wrote:No, I'm pretty sure Hamas is a terrorist organization, the question is would they exist if Israel hadn't been so aggressive in it's seizure of land and restrictive control of imports and exports?Why are you so sure that Hamas is a terrorist organization? They don't seem to be behaving any differently than the Israeli government and most people don't call the Israeli government a terrorist organization.Of course they don't kidnap Palestinian teenagers. They arrest them. There's a huge difference.
When they don't just shoot them, that is.
Are Palestinians arrested by Israel all given due process, phone calls, lawyers and bail?
That's why I made the comparison. When Hamas does it, it's kidnapping. When Israel does it, it's arresting. But it's the same thing.
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Guy Humual wrote:Palestinians are fighting for their homes and existence. They have a right to do that.
I'm not going to suggest that I approve of the conservative Israeli government, they're pretty much the reason why we have groups like Hamas, but just because we have one group behaving badly it doesn't excuse the actions of the other.
Please don't misunderstand me, I am very sympathetic to the Palestinian struggle, however Hamas is not Palestine. They are just one group amongst many.

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ShadowcatX wrote:Please note the tunnels your article discusses are the ones going into Egypt, not the ones going into Israel. It is a lot easier to smuggle in a country that isn't quite as hostile, and much harder to use tunnels that go away from your foe to attack said foe.Which so far have all been military targets, which the palastinians have every justification for doing.
In which case you can't argue that Israel doesn't have a right to invade and kill every member of Hamas they can, if one is at war, they both are.
Eta: If the food isn't being given away it is no different than any other contraband. Claiming that it is okay to smuggle it because it is just food implies it is being done as a humanitarian thing, not a for proffit which is used to buy weapons thing. To me, at least.

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ShadowcatX wrote:thejeff wrote:Do you think the kidnapped victims were given due process? Were they given a phone call you think? Allowed access to a lawyer? Given bail?ShadowcatX wrote:I'm sure they would rather not have been killed. Other than that, there's not a lot of difference.thejeff wrote:Do you think the teenagers Hamas killed would rather have been kidnapped or arrested?ShadowcatX wrote:Pink Dragon wrote:Do you have proof that members of Israel's government capture and kill Palestinian teenagers, because Hamas has admitted that the kidnappings were the work of their members? If not, I assume you'll be retracting your comments.Guy Humual wrote:No, I'm pretty sure Hamas is a terrorist organization, the question is would they exist if Israel hadn't been so aggressive in it's seizure of land and restrictive control of imports and exports?Why are you so sure that Hamas is a terrorist organization? They don't seem to be behaving any differently than the Israeli government and most people don't call the Israeli government a terrorist organization.Of course they don't kidnap Palestinian teenagers. They arrest them. There's a huge difference.
When they don't just shoot them, that is.
Are Palestinians arrested by Israel all given due process, phone calls, lawyers and bail?
That's why I made the comparison. When Hamas does it, it's kidnapping. When Israel does it, it's arresting. But it's the same thing.
If you have evidence they aren't being given basic human rights after being arrested I would like to see it.

thejeff |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
BigNorseWolf wrote:In which case you can't argue that Israel doesn't have a right to invade and kill every member of Hamas they can, if one is at war, they both are.ShadowcatX wrote:Please note the tunnels your article discusses are the ones going into Egypt, not the ones going into Israel. It is a lot easier to smuggle in a country that isn't quite as hostile, and much harder to use tunnels that go away from your foe to attack said foe.Which so far have all been military targets, which the palastinians have every justification for doing.
Two points.
1) They are not at war. They cannot be at war. War exists between states. Israel is an Occupying Power, holding control of the Palestinian Territories. As such they have far more responsibility for protecting civilians under that control than they would in a normal state of war. Hamas is a resistance movement in occupied territory.
2) That said, Israel does have the right to kill or arrest resistance fighters, which would include Hamas's military wing, the al-Qassam Brigades and arguably the senior leadership of Hamas itself. Not, "every member of Hamas", which would low-level bureaucrats and other government officials. However, they do not have the right to disproportionate use of force or excessive civilian casualties. They do not have the right to collective punishment of Palestinian civilians.
But that's all legal niceties and doesn't really matter. Practically, Israel has the right to do damn near anything it pleases to Palestinians as long as it doesn't upset the American public enough that the US government has act on it.

thejeff |
thejeff wrote:If you have evidence they aren't being given basic human rights after being arrested I would like to see it.Are Palestinians arrested by Israel all given due process, phone calls, lawyers and bail?
That's why I made the comparison. When Hamas does it, it's kidnapping. When Israel does it, it's arresting. But it's the same thing.
"Administrative detentions". Not to mention torture.

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ShadowcatX wrote:I supose as one of Israel's supporters generally I should mention that I think this land grab is a ridiculously bad idea and that nothing good will come from it.Ok, now the hard part.
What can the palastinians do about it, what should they do about it, and what are they morally allowed to do about it?
If you are asking me is it a justification to attack Israel, then sure, but they will lose, and cause more of their own people to die. This will also ensure the loss of land is permanent, and likely what Israel wants.
Honestly, what they should do is appeal to the U.N., and to Israel's courts. But if they go that route, any violence is going to ruin their claim, not that it is likely to be honored anyway. Maybe they could bbuy it back, a kind of rockets for land deal. Sucks to have to buy what you should already own, but it is probably their best chance.
Personally, I'd want to salt the entire thing and tell them to choke on it, but that would be a huge waste of resources and probably go over less well than rocket attacks.

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ShadowcatX wrote:BigNorseWolf wrote:In which case you can't argue that Israel doesn't have a right to invade and kill every member of Hamas they can, if one is at war, they both are.ShadowcatX wrote:Please note the tunnels your article discusses are the ones going into Egypt, not the ones going into Israel. It is a lot easier to smuggle in a country that isn't quite as hostile, and much harder to use tunnels that go away from your foe to attack said foe.Which so far have all been military targets, which the palastinians have every justification for doing.Two points.
1) They are not at war. They cannot be at war. War exists between states. Israel is an Occupying Power, holding control of the Palestinian Territories. As such they have far more responsibility for protecting civilians under that control than they would in a normal state of war. Hamas is a resistance movement in occupied territory.
2) That said, Israel does have the right to kill or arrest resistance fighters, which would include Hamas's military wing, the al-Qassam Brigades and arguably the senior leadership of Hamas itself. Not, "every member of Hamas", which would low-level bureaucrats and other government officials. However, they do not have the right to disproportionate use of force or excessive civilian casualties. They do not have the right to collective punishment of Palestinian civilians.
But that's all legal niceties and doesn't really matter. Practically, Israel has the right to do damn near anything it pleases to Palestinians as long as it doesn't upset the American public enough that the US government has act on it.
And Hamas "resistance fighters" have a duty not to involve civilians, yet it happens. They have as much responsibility for the deaths of their people as the Israelis.
That said, you're right about the practicality of what happens. What Hamas really needs is a damn good PR departmment in the EU.
And "every member of Hamas" was a terrible choice of words.

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ShadowcatX wrote:thejeff wrote:If you have evidence they aren't being given basic human rights after being arrested I would like to see it.Are Palestinians arrested by Israel all given due process, phone calls, lawyers and bail?
That's why I made the comparison. When Hamas does it, it's kidnapping. When Israel does it, it's arresting. But it's the same thing."Administrative detentions". Not to mention torture.
Bleh. Six of one, half a dozen of the other then. Thank you for the link.

BigNorseWolf |
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In which case you can't argue that Israel doesn't have a right to invade and kill every member of Hamas they can, if one is at war, they both are.
Yes. I can. Simply declaring a state of war does not create moral parity. Israel is the aggressor taking Palestinian land. They have been doing so steadily and repeatedly for 50 years. Fighting to prevent that is more just than fighting to continue it.
Eta: If the food isn't being given away it is no different than any other contraband.
Ok. Stop.
Go look in the mirror.
Repeat out loud
Israel can tell the palastinians they're not legally allowed to have food.
Israel can tell the palastinians they're not legally allowed to have food.
Israel can tell the palastinians they're not legally allowed to have such a necessary part of human life as food because.....
Holy HELL man.. CONTRABAN? Contraban? I'm sorry, big brother israel thinks you can use that chicken sandwhich for TERROR CALORIES! If you're not on the brink of starvation they you could fight back! And we can't have that! You must be starving or the terrorists might almost put up a fight!'
I do not know if words exists to fully encompass the bewildering tunnel vision it takes to ignore everything that is wrong with that line of thought, but anything that comes remotely close is going to be against board regulations and banned in texas.
Claiming that it is okay to smuggle it because it is just food implies it is being done as a humanitarian thing
No. It doesn't. Its ok to smuggle because NO ONE, no government, not your own, and certainly not the militaristic expansionist government of your occupiers, has the right to tell you that you can't have a damned sandwhich

meatrace |

meatrace wrote:Oh really? I said that huh? How about providing a quote of me saying that? That would be awesome.ShadowcatX wrote:You're the one making the claim that the terrorist organization that was using the illegal tunnels into enemy territory for humanitarian purposes, the onus to provide proof is on you. I don't have to disprove anything.No, I'm arguing that the democratically elected government of some-odd million people is using tunnels to do illegal things that INCLUDE both humanitarian aid (smuggling of contraband i.e. food and medical supplies) as WELL as using them to coordinate rocket strikes on Israel.
What you're saying is preposterous, that tunnels (how many are there? dozens? hundreds?) are used SOLELY to ferry militants into areas to conduct rocket attacks, which happens relatively rarely, and are NEVER used to actually smuggle anything of any kind ever ever ever period.
Why? You didn't need a quote when you misrepresented my argument.
The sword cuts both ways.

BigNorseWolf |

Honestly, what they should do is appeal to the U.N., and to Israel's courts.
There's nothing honest about suggesting that as a viable alternative. You KNOW Israel isn't going to listen to the Palestinians because they haven't listened to them for 50 years. As soon as someone brings up the specter of a threat to Israelis nothing in Israel stops is. The US will block anything the un does and Israel will ignore its own courts on the incredibly slim likelihood the Palestinians get a favorable ruling.
This is Israels standard operating procedure. We need more land to protect the land we have, we need settlers on that land to keep it, then we need more land around that to protect our settlers, and we need to settle that land to claim it, and around that...
Personally, I'd want to salt the entire thing and tell them to choke on it, but that would be a huge waste of resources and probably go over less well than rocket attacks.
Salt only lasts so long. Israel is playing the long game.

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ShadowcatX wrote:I supose as one of Israel's supporters generally I should mention that I think this land grab is a ridiculously bad idea and that nothing good will come from it.Then why did you defend it upthread?
I never defended this land grab. I think you misread something.
ETA: I know what you're talking about. I was referring to the creation of Israel as a whole, not this particular land grab. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear in my previous posts.

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ShadowcatX wrote:In which case you can't argue that Israel doesn't have a right to invade and kill every member of Hamas they can, if one is at war, they both are.Yes. I can. Simply declaring a state of war does not create moral parity. Israel is the aggressor taking Palestinian land. They have been doing so steadily and repeatedly for 50 years. Fighting to prevent that is more just than fighting to continue it.
Then we're going to have to agree to disagree, because IMO: If someone is trying to kill you, you have every right to try and kill them back. The fact that they might have a legitimate reason to try and kill you doesn't invalidate that. Everyone, man, woman, child, soldier, etc. has a right to defend their own lives.
Quote:Eta: If the food isn't being given away it is no different than any other contraband.Ok. Stop.
Go look in the mirror.
Repeat out loud
There is no need to try and make this personal, drop with the attacks.
Holy HELL man.. CONTRABAN? Contraban? I'm sorry, big brother israel thinks you can use that chicken sandwhich for TERROR CALORIES! If you're not on the brink of starvation they you could fight back! And we can't have that! You must be starving or the terrorists might almost put up a fight!'
What do you think happens to food that gets smuggled in? Do you think it goes to the poor who wouldn't otherwise get it, starving children perhaps? Or do you think it goes to the people who can afford it (and who wouldn't be going without anyways) or who are willing to do whatever it takes to get it, basically allowing Hamas to make slaves of their own people?
There are two reasons to smuggle, humanitarian and for profit. If Hamas isn't doing it as humanitarian aid, then it is for profit, and it doesn't matter what is smuggled, all it amounts to in the end is dollar signs (and that very likely translates to rockets fired at Israel).
No. It doesn't. Its ok to smuggle because NO ONE, no government, not your own, and certainly not the militaristic expansionist government of your occupiers, has the right to tell you that you can't have a damned sandwhich
Governments do it all the time my friend. "Sorry, your population is getting too fat, no more selling large sodas at ball games." "Sorry, raw chicken is deadly you can't serve it." (Its only deadly because we don't enforce standards to make it safe.) "Sorry, milk has to be refrigerated, you can't serve it warm." (Again, proper pasteurization techniques would allow milk to be stored on a shelf without problems.)

thejeff |
BigNorseWolf wrote:Then we're going to have to agree to disagree, because IMO: If someone is trying to kill you, you have every right to try and kill them back. The fact that they might have a legitimate reason to try and kill you doesn't invalidate that. Everyone, man, woman, child, soldier, etc. has a right to defend their own lives.ShadowcatX wrote:In which case you can't argue that Israel doesn't have a right to invade and kill every member of Hamas they can, if one is at war, they both are.Yes. I can. Simply declaring a state of war does not create moral parity. Israel is the aggressor taking Palestinian land. They have been doing so steadily and repeatedly for 50 years. Fighting to prevent that is more just than fighting to continue it.
Do they have the right to kill you if you're trying to kill them because they're committing crimes against you?
It's a fairly standard legal principle of self-defense, that you don't have the right to self-defense if you're attacked while committing a crime. If I break into your house and you shoot at me, I have no self-defense right to return fire.Now, how that plays out on the larger scale of nations is more complicated, but Israel remains the aggressor here, not the victim. They continue to claim more Palestinian land, evicting the Palestinians from it. They continue to enforce a blockade.

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"Sorry, raw chicken is deadly you can't serve it." (Its only deadly because we don't enforce standards to make it safe.) "Sorry, milk has to be refrigerated, you can't serve it warm." (Again, proper pasteurization techniques would allow milk to be stored on a shelf without problems.)
And you have just rendered every single argument you have ever made, EVER, invalid by association.

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That has more to do with that an egg emulsified dressing has almost no shelf life and has to be made for each salad individually.
There's enough acidity and salt in caesar dressing from the anchovies, worcestershire, and lemon to reduce the risk of salmonella to functionally zero, and if a restaurant wants to reduce it further then can coddle the yolk or use pasteurized shell eggs.
It's a similar issue to why if you want real eggnog and not liquid custard you have to make it yourself since in involves raw eggs and LOTS of booze.

BigNorseWolf |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |

Then we're going to have to agree to disagree, because IMO: If someone is trying to kill you, you have every right to try and kill them back. The fact that they might have a legitimate reason to try and kill you doesn't invalidate that. Everyone, man, woman, child, soldier, etc. has a right to defend their own lives.
All the time? No matter what they're doing?
Thats as ridiculous as it is unworkable. Someone breaks into my house, I defend myself by picking up a knife, they shoot me. Hey, self defense.
If everyone always has a right to self defense then NO ONE has the right to self defense. All you have are the quick and the dead. The right to defend yourself goes to whoever is left standing when the bullets fire. Might does not make right, RIGHT makes right and the Palestinians are in the right here.
There is no need to try and make this personal, drop with the attacks.
This argument is too ridiculous for words. I cannot break down the logical error behind it because there is no logic behind it. I cannot parody it to illustrate the problem because they are already a self parody. Its a strait out chewbacca defense.
All I can do is try to get you to hear what you're saying.
What do you think happens to food that gets smuggled in? Do you think it goes to the poor who wouldn't otherwise get it, starving children perhaps? Or do you think it goes to the people who can afford it (and who wouldn't be going without anyways) or who are willing to do whatever it takes to get it, basically allowing Hamas to make slaves of their own people?
I think its telling when someone rich enough to have people hop on a bicycle powered mole machine and dig two miles under ground and instal a train track for it needs more food
There are two reasons to smuggle, humanitarian and for profit. If Hamas isn't doing it as humanitarian aid, then it is for profit, and it doesn't matter what is smuggled, all it amounts to in the end is dollar signs (and that very likely translates to rockets fired at Israel)
And what does it say about the state of affairs in palastine that the sort of effort that would normally go into smuggling drugs and weapons has to be applied to chicken?
Governments do it all the time my friend. "Sorry, your population is getting too fat, no more selling large sodas at ball games."
And new york told the mayor exactly what he could use for a big gulp holder over that one.
"Sorry, raw chicken is deadly you can't serve it." (Its only deadly because we don't enforce standards to make it safe.)
No.
Just.... no.
You cannot pretend this is an argument against the point being made. Its not remotely the same thing.
Israel is not doing this as a health issue. At best their restrictive policies are an attempt to keep weapons out that has the unwanted side effect of limiting produce. At worst (and IMHO, more realistic) is that its a deliberate policy to crush the Palestinian economy.

Comrade Anklebiter |

[I was over in The Ukraine Thingy thread and posted this. As soon as it showed up I noticed that it was under a staff avatar with a blank post. "Hmmm," I thought, "I better copy this quick!" It's probably more appropriate in this thread anyway. Don't know if I would have gone with from NH to Novosibirsk, but whatever.]
So, I guess Obama just announced anti-ISIS airstrikes in Syria?
First, I heard, the reintroduction of US imperialist military force into Iraq was to save the Yazidis from being genocided up, but now I guess it's to follow ISIS to the gates of hell to avenge beheaded NH journalists?
([Pours one out for the dead homies])
I just wanna be clear about what the goal is now, before Sexy Putin pulls something else out of his ass and turns the tables on Barry and Kerry again and the whole Obamabot spin machine goes into effect and starts changing the stated goals.
I swear, the longer this thread goes on, the more tempted I am to embrace Sexy Putin.
U.S. Imperialism--World's Biggest Terrorists! Russian Capitalists: Pretty Bad, Too!
From New Hampshire to Novosibirsk: For Workers Revolution!
Vive le Galt!

thejeff |
[I was over in The Ukraine Thingy thread and posted this. As soon as it showed up I noticed that it was under a staff avatar with a blank post. "Hmmm," I thought, "I better copy this quick!" It's probably more appropriate in this thread anyway. Don't know if I would have gone with from NH to Novosibirsk, but whatever.]
So, I guess Obama just announced anti-ISIS airstrikes in Syria?
First, I heard, the reintroduction of US imperialist military force into Iraq was to save the Yazidis from being genocided up, but now I guess it's to follow ISIS to the gates of hell to avenge beheaded NH journalists?
([Pours one out for the dead homies])
I just wanna be clear about what the goal is now, before Sexy Putin pulls something else out of his ass and turns the tables on Barry and Kerry again and the whole Obamabot spin machine goes into effect and starts changing the stated goals.
I swear, the longer this thread goes on, the more tempted I am to embrace Sexy Putin.
U.S. Imperialism--World's Biggest Terrorists! Russian Capitalists: Pretty Bad, Too!
From New Hampshire to Novosibirsk: For Workers Revolution!
Vive le Galt!
I'm pretty sure the stated goals aren't "to avenge beheaded NH journalists".
Our objective is clear: we will degrade, and ultimately destroy, ISIL through a comprehensive and sustained counter-terrorism strategy.Also
It will not involve American combat troops fighting on foreign soil.
Though that's really only likely to mean we won't be sending actual large numbers of regular troops. I'm sure there are special forces and advisors on the ground already.
For the record, while I don't expect this to be quick or easy, I also don't expect it to turn into another occupation

Comrade Anklebiter |

I'm pretty sure the stated goals aren't "to avenge beheaded NH journalists".
Biden's warning to ISIS militants: 'We will follow them to the gates of hell'
For the record, while I don't expect this to be quick or easy, I also don't expect it to turn into another occupation
No, I'd imagine not. Obama's all about the lean, mean, drone strike and JSOC assassins machine.

JohnLocke |

thejeff wrote:I'm pretty sure the stated goals aren't "to avenge beheaded NH journalists".Biden's warning to ISIS militants: 'We will follow them to the gates of hell'
thejeff wrote:For the record, while I don't expect this to be quick or easy, I also don't expect it to turn into another occupationNo, I'd imagine not. Obama's all about the lean, mean, drone strike and JSOC assassins machine.
The best bet, of course, would be for the U.S. to stay out of this conflict altogether. ISIL is a direct result of America's wars and policies - just as al-qaeda, the previous bogeyman, was. Have we learned nothing from history, here?

thejeff |
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thejeff wrote:For the record, while I don't expect this to be quick or easy, I also don't expect it to turn into another occupationNo, I'd imagine not. Obama's all about the lean, mean, drone strike and JSOC assassins machine.
Which is still better than full scale war. I know some people think that drones are somehow especially evil, but I'd far rather see drones and the "JSOC assassins machine" used than a hundred thousand troops.