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Doug's Workshop wrote:

For what it's worth . . . .

http://www.thomaswictor.com/massacre-at-shijaiyah/

Pro-Israel conspiracy theorist reporting on what he's seen with no real expertise? Really?

Surprising, Doug. Even for you.


Story making the rounds on the other side:

Gaza Strip: 'Palestinian Genocide is Permissible' Claims Israeli Writer

You'll notice that, like most Zionists who come uncomfortably close to fascism, the blogger is from New York.

U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!


The article linked to within has been taken down.


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

Story making the rounds on the other side:

Gaza Strip: 'Palestinian Genocide is Permissible' Claims Israeli Writer

You'll notice that, like most Zionists who come uncomfortably close to fascism, the blogger is from New York.

U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!

HEY!!!!!!!


No sleep 'til Brooklyn!


The best thing Israel can do is just round up ALL the Palestinians and dump them across the border in Syria...let The UN set up refugee camps there...the militant Pallies can go join ISIS and martyr themselves.
let the Syrian factions deal with these people.
Hamas was elected by the Palestinians so they are responsible for Hamas' actions for good or bad.


U-S-A! U-S-A!


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Doug's Workshop wrote:

For what it's worth . . . .

http://www.thomaswictor.com/massacre-at-shijaiyah/

I like the other article on that website wherein the author relates how he was scammed out of $40,000 because he suffers from a variety of mental disorders and is gullible.

But it was considerably more fun to read than other stuff posted.


Freehold DM wrote:
Doug's Workshop wrote:

For what it's worth . . . .

http://www.thomaswictor.com/massacre-at-shijaiyah/

Pro-Israel conspiracy theorist reporting on what he's seen with no real expertise? Really?

Surprising, Doug. Even for you.

Hey, if you don't want to keep an open mind about stuff, I can't force the issue.

Curious that similar photos appeared 2 weeks ago.

Even conspiracy theorists can get it right once in a while.


Doug's Workshop wrote:
Hey, if you don't want to keep an open mind about stuff, I can't force the issue.

Stop using a passive aggressive insult as an argument.

Yes. That is exactly what you're doing.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Doug's Workshop wrote:
Hey, if you don't want to keep an open mind about stuff, I can't force the issue.

Stop using a passive aggressive insult as an argument.

Yes. That is exactly what you're doing.

So I should only link sites that are BigNorseWolf approved?

The Exchange

Doug's Workshop wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Doug's Workshop wrote:
Hey, if you don't want to keep an open mind about stuff, I can't force the issue.

Stop using a passive aggressive insult as an argument.

Yes. That is exactly what you're doing.

So I should only link sites that are BigNorseWolf approved?

Now you know how i feel on a lot of topics.


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Doug's Workshop wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Doug's Workshop wrote:
Hey, if you don't want to keep an open mind about stuff, I can't force the issue.

Stop using a passive aggressive insult as an argument.

Yes. That is exactly what you're doing.

So I should only link sites that are BigNorseWolf approved?

Stop evading the argument by putting words people didn't say in their mouth.

If you link something that is malarkey, accept the possibility that people rejecting that malarkey is because its malarkey, not because they are closed minded.

If that's the only type of support you can find for your position, reconsider your position rather than crying that the audience is unfair.


BigNorseWolf wrote:


Stop evading the argument by putting words people didn't say in their mouth.

If you link something that is malarkey, accept the possibility that people rejecting that malarkey is because its malarkey, not because they are closed minded.

If that's the only type of support you can find for your position, reconsider your position rather than crying that the audience is unfair.

Might be malarkey. Or it might be true. I noticed no one actually pointed out where the guy was wrong.


I wouldn't mind if people only linked to sites that I approved of.

Gaza in crisis

Mass action needed to stop bloodshed

Shahar Benhorin, Socialist Struggle Movement (CWI in Israel-Palestine)


Doug's Workshop wrote:

Might be malarkey. Or it might be true. I noticed no one actually pointed out where the guy was wrong.

An epic level ranger could not track this guys thought process, or how anything in the video relates to anything he's saying.

Crazy old man wrote:
Listen to the narrator at :30 in the video. You can see with your own eyes that this isn’t a crowded or busy market, nor were there 160 wounded.

No. You can't. You can't see the market from this video. You can see ambulances pulling up with people telling the emt's "this way this way" but not what they're being led to, which I think is behind the graffiti'd wall. You can also see a big plume of smoke off in the distance, which is why this guy broke out the camera in the first place. For all I (or this guy) know THATS the market bombing.

Yes, the video shows a bomb going off in an empty parking lot, but what, pray tell, were those people flagging the ambulance down for ?

This video shows an attack on a relatively open space does not mean that all of the other bombs hit a relatively open space.


Doug's Workshop wrote:

Might be malarkey. Or it might be true. I noticed no one actually pointed out where the guy was wrong.

Report: 15 Killed in Shijaiyah Market

Apparently, the Security Council of Israel met about it yesterday. I'd rather wait and see what the Israeli claims are before digging through a post by a guy who claims he spent all of last year out of his right mind.

Anything juicy over at Prison Planet or FrontPage?


BigNorseWolf wrote:


This video shows an attack on a relatively open space does not mean that all of the other bombs hit a relatively open space.

Um . . . you do know that precision bombing means multiple bombs don't need to be used, right?


BigNorseWolf wrote:

Go look at the video in the link, not the video on his site.


Doug's Workshop wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:


This video shows an attack on a relatively open space does not mean that all of the other bombs hit a relatively open space.

Um . . . you do know that precision bombing means multiple bombs don't need to be used, right?

I have NO idea what you're trying to say here. Are you trying to say that there were not multiple bombs?

Multiple bombs were used. There was the big plume of smoke the guy was filming, there was the one that went off while he was filming, and I'm pretty sure there was another one nearby that the crowd was leading the ambulance to.

"the link" is less than informative. He has enough links to different things to tie the girlscouts to global warming.


BigNorseWolf wrote:


I have NO idea what you're trying to say here. Are you trying to say that there were not multiple bombs?

Multiple bombs were used. There was the big plume of smoke the guy was filming, there was the one that went off while he was filming, and I'm pretty sure there was another one nearby that the crowd was leading the ambulance to.

"the link" is less than informative. He has enough links to different things to tie the girlscouts to global warming.

Secondary explosions . . . from Hamas' rockets. Bombs explode differently.

You don't like the link. I get that. Next time I'll try and find one that meets your criteria.

How about this one: http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=37&x_article=2 786

I'm sure it's just coincidence. Nothing to see here. Move along.


So you're trying to say that the video shows that they were hamas rockets, or bombs, NOT israeli shells ? And he thinks he can tell that from the video. The guy couldn't even figure out where the market was.

The guy sounds like a 9 11 "truther"

Doug's Worskshop wrote:
How about this one: http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=37&x_article=2 786

What are you trying to say? You are making random conspiracy statements and expecting me to refute the crazy without knowing which thought process it is.

Articulate your specific claim. Are you trying to say "the rockets are hitting people of this age group, therefore they're mostly hitting terroritsts? "

It looks just like the population of the rest of gaza If there are slightly more males thats no surprise: they're more likely to be demonstrating or staying in high risk areas. If the shelters only have room for so many people, the women and children go and the men stay at home.


Kinda hard to build shelters when Hamas keeps diverting the concrete to build tunnels into Israel.


Doug's Workshop wrote:
Kinda hard to build shelters when Hamas keeps diverting the concrete to build tunnels into Israel.

You can't substantiate your claims.

You need to blame everyone for the problem with the argument your sources are making.

When someone calls you on the dissonance between the claims and the evidence, you can't back up the connection, you hop to something completely different and unrelated.

Its not people's bias leading to the conclusions you don't like here. Either you're making really, really horrible arguments for your position or reality's well known liberal bias is showing again.


A spike in the conscript/military aged that isn't present in Gaza's overall population distribution? 44% of the deaths amongst 10% of the population. A statistician might find that little coincidence rather intriguing.

Furthermore, Palestinian Ministry of Health claims 82% of deaths are civilian. A little research into that shows that in 2009 (Operation Cast Lead), 82% of the deaths were claimed to be civilian. Is that coincidence #2?

Luckily, reports indicate the populace of Gaza is starting to turn against Hamas. Some people are probably wondering why that might be. Those of us who follow such things already know why.


BigNorseWolf wrote:


You can't substantiate your claims.

Or you won't look further than the propaganda Hamas supplies.

BigNorseWolf wrote:


You need to blame everyone for the problem with the argument your sources are making.

I haven't blamed everyone.

BigNorseWolf wrote:


When someone calls you on the dissonance between the claims and the evidence, you can't back up the connection, you hop to something completely different and unrelated.

Or maybe I realize I could post a link to a video from Hamas that states everything clearly, and some would argue that it's simply Israeli propaganda.

BigNorseWolf wrote:


Its not people's bias leading to the conclusions you don't like here. Either you're making really, really horrible arguments for your position or reality's well known liberal bias is showing again.

What liberal bias would that be? That jihadis like to kill civilians? Liberals seem to think that Hamas is a purely humanitarian group that gives children puppies while making sure their people are safe from the Jews. That Israel, the only functional democracy in the area, has a right and duty to defend itself from murderous thugs who hide behind women and children? Because the "liberal bias" seems to indicate that Hamas is not filled with murderous thugs that set up shop in hospitals and store rockets in schools run by the UN. Maybe that Hamas is a theocratic and demonstrably racist group who's stated goal is to destroy Israel? Certainly, the "liberal bias" demonstrated so far is that Israel is to blame for everything and poor Hamas is just acting the only way it can when it tries to blow up civilians.

I've seen lots of liberal bias, but reality doesn't seem to support it.


Doug's Workshop wrote:


Or you won't look further than the propaganda Hamas supplies.

Would you please point to one thing I've cited that is courtesy of hamas? One thing that is factually incorrect

That website and video were horrible on their own merits. The malarky was obvious just from watching the video and what he "interpreted" from it. No other propaganda was necessary. It was making claims that were not supported by what was shown. I pointed that out, you make ad homs without answering it.

Quote:
I haven't blamed everyone.

you won't look further than the propaganda Hamas supplies

Those of us who follow such things already know why (the implication being that anyone that disagrees with you isn't following things)
Hey, if you don't want to keep an open mind about stuff, I can't force the issue.(calling people close minded)

You have an angry, rhetorical , passive aggressive rant that meets resistance with ad homs, NOT an argument.

Quote:
What liberal bias would that be?

That Hamas cannot solve the situation.

That the situation is almost entirely Israels fault.

The Israel's retribution for the rocket attacks is a massive over reaction

That Israel is the one killing the majority of the civilians (around 800 at last count, compared to Hamas's 2) Israel not shooting back would eliminate over 99% of the innocent deaths.


Doug's Workshop wrote:
Liberals seem to think that Hamas is a purely humanitarian group that gives children puppies while making sure their people are safe from the Jews. That Israel, the only functional democracy in the area, has a right and duty to defend itself from murderous thugs who hide behind women and children?

And you wonder why most people here can't take you seriously...


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Doug's Workshop wrote:

What liberal bias would that be? That jihadis like to kill civilians? Liberals seem to think that Hamas is a purely humanitarian group that gives children puppies while making sure their people are safe from the Jews.

It seems Israel is much much better than Hamas at killing civilians. When you take figures around 80% of victims of Hamas are Israeli soldiers while 70% of victims of IDF are civilians. Besides Syrian army no other conventional force is killing as many babies as IDF.

Doug's Workshop wrote:

That Israel, the only functional democracy in the area, has a right and duty to defend itself from murderous thugs who hide behind women and children?

If over 1000 civilian victims is the best a functional democracy can offer, I think we should review our definition of a functional democracy.

About hiding behind women and children, you don't have much choice in asymmetrical warfare.
"Murderous thugs", still the title is held by IDF with very few chance for Hamas to get it back as no other country is using assassination at the level Israel does.

Doug's Workshop wrote:

Because the "liberal bias" seems to indicate that Hamas is not filled with murderous thugs that set up shop in hospitals and store rockets in schools run by the UN.

Thugs would fill hospitals and schools with rockets, scums would bomb them with nasty weapons. So IDF has hardly better moral values than Hamas.

Doug's Workshop wrote:

Maybe that Hamas is a theocratic and demonstrably racist group who's stated goal is to destroy Israel?

Israel is slowly becoming theocratic (more and more non Jewish regret it) and, if not racist yet it's a discriminating country.

Unstated Israel goal is not to give Palestinians their own country according to signed treaties. Moreso, it seems to me it's Israel destroying Palestine right now!

Doug's Workshop wrote:

[...] Israel is to blame for everything and poor Hamas is just acting the only way it can when it tries to blow up civilians.

I agree with you on that point.

Doug's Workshop wrote:

I've seen lots of liberal bias, but reality doesn't seem to support it.

Don't force yourself, you might understand you're on the wrong side of history otherwise!


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Doug, tough cookies. You want to be taken seriously? Don't start off with a conspiracy theorist who very clearly leans towards one side. I take the goblin seriously even though we agree on little, and that's because he posts stuff from reputable sources more often than not in between his weird commie chants and accusations that dogs and horses are trying to take over the world. You want the same, start finding better sources. Also? Dropping the gve rhetoric might help. Even lord snow points out where Israel had erred, and he is a proud Israeli.


Down with horses and dogs!

I was gonna link it before, but I thought it would be self-indulgent. But now that Citizen Workshop has brought up CAMERA...

United Steel Workers 8751 – A Bus Drivers Union That Supports People Who Blow Up Buses

Veolia Supports Segregation From Boston to Palestine! Drop the Charges Against Steve Kirschbaum! Reinstate the School Bus 4!


Liberals for Israel

Liberty's Edge

I wanted to say that the proHamas side is highly amusing. If we blame Hamas for hiding amongst civilians and not having military targets clearly identified as such, then it isn't Hamas's fault, they can't obey the rules of war fare, they'd get crushed, too high a population density, etc.

Then when casualties are brought up suddenly it is Idf kills civilians. Population density and the fact that Hamas hides amongst civilians and actively blends in with civilians doesn't seem to matter. Even the fact that Hamas hides weapons at UN schools doesn't seem to matter, everything is Israel's fault.

However, I do partially agree with BNW, Israel is the one with the power to change things and that power is not militaristic in nature. Military action may be necessary to keep Israel safe in the short term, but it isn't going to change things long term.

If I were to put forth a long term solution I would try educating people about how much aid comes from Israel on a daily basis, and I would explain how much aid would be lost for every single attack on Israel. Heck, if I wanted to maintain international good will, I wouldn't even stop the aid in the event of attacks, I would just make it not halal (spelling?) aid. Punish them with pork.


That sounds like a supremely bad idea.


ShadowcatX wrote:
If I were to put forth a long term solution I would try educating people about how much aid comes from Israel on a daily basis, and I would explain how much aid would be lost for every single attack on Israel. Heck, if I wanted to maintain international good will, I wouldn't even stop the aid in the event of attacks, I would just make it not halal (spelling?) aid. Punish them with pork.

As near as I can tell, Israel actually provides no (or at least very little) aid to Gaza. The vast majority of international aid comes into Gaza from Israel, but that's because Israel controls the border. It's being sent through Israel, not by Israel.

Israel does this, rather than allowing it to be shipped into Gaza directly or through Egypt, so they can inspect and control what is sent in.
I'm sure the Palestinians already know how the aid gets to them. And why.

So your suggestion is not about cutting of aid from Israel, but stopping other parties from delivering aid. I'm not sure quite how Israel would make the aid sent by other groups not halal. Confiscate it and replace it with pork?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

ShadowcatX,
That would also be non-kosher and I doubt the Israeli extremists would be good with that.


ShadowcatX wrote:
[...] I would try educating people about how much aid comes from Israel on a daily basis [...]

I think Palestinians received enough "aid" from Israel over the last weeks...

When Iran will become a nuclear power, Israel will see the interest to cooperate with sunnite muslim countries, and to do so Israel will not only make peace but will do its maximum to get Palestinians as allies.
Most probably Iran will try to recreate Persia integrating Iraq and Afghanistan, gathering around 140 millions people.
The cultural, but especially economical threat for Israel would be so huge that the best choice will be to band with Jordan, Egypt, Turkey, and Syria.

Iran doesn't care about Israel, it's too far to be a real problem. Iran wants to The Superpower in Middle East, nothing more, nothing less!
On the other hand if Israel manages to forge a strong alliance with its neighbors, they'll become The Superpower of Middle East
Anyway, whichever the path followed by Israel, it will need to have friendly and peaceful relationship with Palestinians. So, better to start it right now as time is on the side of Iran.

The Exchange

I would not deny that some aid comes from the isreali people, some of them see only people suffering and want to help

That said trying to intentionally violate the dietary restrictions of a religion just to be a jerk is impressively bad.


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Andrew R wrote:
I would not deny that some aid comes from the isreali people, some of them see only people suffering and want to help

I don't doubt some is from individuals in Israel, but the vast majority is not.

Certainly not enough that the people of Gaza would be swayed by "educating people about how much aid comes from Israel on a daily basis"


Somehow I don' think the Palestinians will be happy with knowing that their jailors are feeding them.

The Exchange

Freehold DM wrote:

I'm sorry to disagree with you here, Lord Snow- Britain holds responsibility for a lot of this. If not Britain, then generic old white guys drawing maps and proclaiming this land is their land, that land is the other's, etc.

I don't think jews popped an alchemic tincture and went all cannibal invader on the Palestinians.

That the Palestinians were operating under pressures, both internal and external, is obvious. However, "I had a really hard day at work and was pissed off" is a very poor line in defense when you stand trial for the murder of your wife - you still did the act yourself, and you are to blame, not your boss. Similarly, the Palestinians are to blame for their acts of aggression against the Jewish settlers of the time, not the British.

The thing that matters is that the ones doing the actual bloodshed were the Palestinians. So when Krenski described the situation as the Israelis coming to the Palestinian's homes, kicking in the door and massing things up, that was wildly inaccurate. During the initial confrontations between Jews and Arabs in the 20th century, a lot of Palestinian hands were bloodied. The pressure building up between the two people up to 1948 was perfectly mutual, and, to my understanding, the Palestinians were generally more aggressive at that time.

The bottom line is that the political situation in the Western Bank is *very* complex, and attempts like the one Krensky made, to show one side as the bad guy and the other as the good guy that's being victimized, are doomed to fail miserably when confronted with the facts.

Quote:
And I actually agree in theorycrafting with what you've put up re: the circumstances post WWI contributing heavily to the rise of Nazi Germany. I think that there are many in the history world who would agree that the Treaty of Versailles laid down the fertile ground from which Nazi Germany would grow.

Yet you wouldn't for a moment suggest to absolve the Germans of the lion's share of the responsibility for world war 2, would you?


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Honestly, Lord Snow, there is a very important difference between the concepts of explanation and excuse. Explanations merely tell us why. Excuses are when those explanations are seen to take away responsibility for someone's actions.

Without the treaty of Versailles, it is quite likely there wouldn't have been a WWII. The treaty is an explanation, but never an excuse.


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Depends. If Germany had snagged austria, gobbled up a french provence, and then said "Now, anyone want to talk about that treaty?" they would have been pretty justified.


Lord Snow wrote:
Yet you wouldn't for a moment suggest to absolve the Germans of the lion's share of the responsibility for world war 2, would you?

Nope - but neither would I absolve the Allies. I'm all for increasing the level of blame rather than absolving parties.


BigNorseWolf wrote:


That Hamas cannot solve the situation.

Hamas can stop firing rockets at Israel. That would stop the situation.

BigNorseWolf wrote:


That the situation is almost entirely Israels fault.

Hamas launches rockets at Israel . . . and it's Israel's fault. I see.

BigNorseWolf wrote:


The Israel's retribution for the rocket attacks is a massive over reaction

Looking around at the world, I don't see other countries allowing outside forces to launch rockets at their civilian populations without reprisal.

Your opinion is that the reprisal is a massive overreaction. Others have the opinion that Israel is holding back. Because a full fledged invasion of Gaza would no doubt lead to lots of Israeli soldiers getting killed, and considerably more damage to Gaza that what has been done.

BigNorseWolf wrote:


That Israel is the one killing the majority of the civilians (around 800 at last count, compared to Hamas's 2) Israel not shooting back would eliminate over 99% of the innocent deaths.

First, Hamas doesn't differentiate between civilian and combatant deaths (says so in their charter). Don't know if you knew that or not.

Second, yes, when Hamas launches rockets from civilian areas and Israel has to attack those sites after warning the civilian population to leave, there will be more civilian deaths. Maybe if Hamas allowed those civilians to leave . . . but many times they don't.

Maybe if Hamas spent all that time building shelters with concrete instead of building tunnels there'd be fewer casualties. But Hamas wants the civilian deaths. Their own misfired rockets have landed on Palestinian houses and Hamas has claimed the deaths were the result of an Israeli attack.

Out of curiosity, how many Israelis should be allowed to be killed before Hamas needs to held accountable?


GentleGiant wrote:


And you wonder why most people here can't take you seriously...

Depending on what group "most people" belong in, I don't see how this is a bad thing.

I mean, if I'd adamant that Sharknado can't happen and "most people" here disagree with me . . . .


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Doug's Workshop wrote:


Hamas can stop firing rockets at Israel. That would stop the situation.

It would not. This factual error of yours shows your lack of understanding of the situation and undercuts your entire argument. You think hamas is like a standard military or government where it can actually control the actions of its subordinates: that isn't the case.

Hamas stop firing rockets. Hamas cannot stop the rockets from being fired. Not understanding that difference undercuts your entire argument. If hamas stops firing someone else will start firing.

This recent flare up is a perfect example of what happens. Non hamas individuals kidnapped and killed 3 Israelis. Israel blames Hamas, starts goes into the Palestinian areas and starts arresting people. Hamas fires, Israel fires.

You wouldn't let mexico cross the border to grab US citizens without shooting back either.

You want to hold hamas responsible for the killings when they have no power to stop it. Hamas doesn't like to admit it, but there is no way in hell hamas could stop 2 million really pissed of people from doing things to people living among them even if they were so inclined.

Hamas cannot make everyone behave long enough for Israel to do something about the Palestinian situation. If everything is quiet, the Israeli's don't want to do anything. If they're lobbing rockets, Israel is in the mood to send missiles back.

Quote:
Hamas launches rockets at Israel . . . and it's Israel's fault. I see.

You don't see. You're too busy being pithy to listen.

You can arbitrarily cut off the cycle of violence and pretend that hamas is always the aggressor. Oh right, israel is only firing in return for the rockets... but that's disingenuous. The rockets are a reprisal for an arrest. The arrest is revenge for a kidnaping. The kidnaping is a revenge for an arrest, the rest is a revenge for...

Underneath the endlessly revolving door of paybacks and reprisals Israel keeps these people virtually imprisoned and deprives them of anything they'd need to have something remotely resembling an economy or a life. That constant, continuous, malfeasance is what differentiates an otherwise homogenous blur

Quote:
Your opinion is that the reprisal is a massive overreaction. Others have the opinion that Israel is holding back.

The golden mean fallacy again. I'm a good guy because i could have killed 2 million civilians and i only got a thousand.

Quote:
Second, yes, when Hamas launches rockets from civilian areas and Israel has to attack those sites after warning the civilian population to leave, there will be more civilian deaths. Maybe if Hamas allowed those civilians to leave . . . but many times they don't.

You are saying that hamas forces people to stay somewhere. Can you cite this?

Quote:
Maybe if Hamas spent all that time building shelters with concrete instead of building tunnels there'd be fewer casualties. But Hamas wants the civilian deaths. Their own misfired rockets have landed on Palestinian houses and Hamas has claimed the deaths were the result of an Israeli attack.

The amount of concrete you need for a tunnel amounts to a mere rounding error on how much you need for a shelter.

On a map, can you point to a non civilian location?

Quote:
Out of curiosity, how many Israelis should be allowed to be killed before Hamas needs to held accountable?

Any argument to bring hamas up on charges brings the IDF up 10 times over.


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And for the record, though it's been said before, Hamas had not launched rockets into Israel since the 2012 truce. Other groups had, but according to Israel, Hamas was doing its best to stop them.

And the number of rockets was a tiny fraction of what's been launched during this conflict.

Liberty's Edge

I believe the kidnappings were done by members of Hamas, but they were acting without orders. Is that incorrect?

As to Hamas being unable to stop the rocketfire, yes and no. Hamas probably couldn't ensure that absolutely 0 rockets were fired into Israel, but they could chose not to fire any themselves and the over all rocketfire would decrease greatly. Hell, they could even go wild and work with Palestinian authorities to stop rocketfire and arrest individuals who fire said rockets.

Also, maybe in the minds of some it is acceptable to kidnap or murder innocemts in payback for other people's alleged crimes (ie. Arrests) but no civilized country allows that.

As to the amount of aid Israel provides to Palestine, I was unable to find any numbers that seemed remotely trustworthy so if I was incorrect there, that is my bad. Y'all really ran with the whole giving them pork part though.

Liberty's Edge

thejeff wrote:
And for the record, though it's been said before, Hamas had not launched rockets into Israel since the 2012 truce. Other groups had, but according to Israel, Hamas was doing its best to stop them.

Do you have a link for this because I must have missed it earlier.

Quote:

And the number of rockets was a tiny fraction of what's been launched during this conflict.

Which should surprise exactly noone.

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