Goblinworks Game Designer
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In other words, is there any one step in any production process that requires more than one feat to complete?wild speculation 3: I believe not. The intent is to make players cooperate, not build jack-of-all characters. It makes more sense to have complex items require 10 different types of materials gone through 5 different refining steps.
wild speculation 1: it would likely be relevant for high-end recipes anyway, not for anything added in alpha/EE. So even if the answer is currently no it could become yes.
wild speculation 2: There might be rare salvage items that have a very low chance of spawning unless you have more than one (knowledge) skill.
I'll provide an example for context (What context? I dunno!).
Crafting recipes:
Crusader's Scale (Tier 3 medium armor most appropriate for good clerics; Armorsmith recipe rank 18):
* Adamantine Blanks x37
* Dragonskin Sheet x2
* Pure Crystal x5
* Superior Padding x1
Mage Resistance (Tier 3 armor enchant that adds the keywords to resist fire, cold, and electric; Spellcraft recipe rank 20)
* Dynamic Crystal x6
Refining Recipes (for +0 version, each additional + requires approximately 20% extra of base components):
Adamantine Blanks (Tier 3 metal component; Smelter recipe rank 13)
* Adamantine Ore x10
* Lodestone x20
* Iron Ore x30
* Coal x30
Dragonskin Sheet (Tier 3 leather component; Tanner rank 17)
* Dragon Skin x10
* Creature Pelt x20
* Beast Pelt x40
Pure Crystal (Tier 3 essence component; Sage rank 15)
* Synthesis Essence x10
* Dweomer Essence x5
* Superior Constant (gem) x5
* Greater Numinous (gem) x5
Superior Padding (Tier 3 cloth component; Weaver rank 19)
* Silk x2
* Cotton x10
* Wool x40
* Synthesis Essence x10
Dynamic Crystal (Tier 3 essence component; Sage rank 13)
* Cryptic Essence x20
* Synthesis Essence x15
* Dweomer Essence x10
* Superior Constant (gem) x10
Raw Components:
* Adamantine Ore (Tier 3 metal stock)
* Lodestone (Tier 2 metal stock)
* Iron Ore (Tier 1 metal stock)
* Coal (Tier 1 metal stock)
* Dragon Skin (Tier 3 leather stock)
* Creature Pelt (Tier 2 leather stock)
* Beast Pelt (Tier 1 leather stock)
* Synthesis Essence (Tier 3 essence stock)
* Dweomer Essence (Tier 3 essence stock)
* Superior Constant (Tier 3 gem stock)
* Greater Numinous (Tier 2 gem stock)
* Silk (Tier 3 cloth stock)
* Cotton (Tier 2 cloth stock)
* Wool (Tier 1 cloth stock)
* Cryptic Essence (Tier 3 essence stock)
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Functionality (if not final UI) for everything except enchanting should be in at this point. You can't get your skills higher than 2 because of the lack of crafting achievements, but I think Lee's trying to put in a workaround for that. I think default recipes should work this week. And a lot of things don't have art yet.
But theoretically if you could get the components, skills, and recipes, you could make that armor right now.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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So, to make that armor requires lots of different raw materials; obviously is doesn't matter who brings them into the world. Each refined component requires only one skill to create, but the final armor with enchantment requires both armor smithing and spellcraft.
Does everyone with a finished product skill need spellcraft (to be in a supply chain for enchanted stuff?)
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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@DeciusBrutus
Yes, presently the system isn't configured to accept post-crafting enchants. This is largely to keep from having to have a separate +0-+5 scale (and, thus, extra granularity) for enchantments. For example, if you see an enchanted item that's +5, you can trust that both the base item effect and the enchantment effect are +5. We might eventually implement a way to enchant after crafting (which would probably entail having to use enchant crystals of the same + as the item), but not for a long time.
Base items still do something useful (and adding enchantments might make the item way more expensive than its value to some players), so it remains to be seen whether the market rejects all unenchanted items forcing all crafters to sideline as enchanters. But, yes, anyone that wants to make enchanted gear needs to have both a crafting skill and Spellcraft.
@Tyncale
Under the current quality system:
* Tier 1 items at +0 are Quality 10-70 and at +5 are Quality 100
* Tier 2 items at +0 are Quality 80-130 and at +5 are Quality 200
* Tier 3 items at +0 are Quality 140-200 and at +5 are Quality 300
* +1 to +4 scales linearly between +0 Quality and +5 Quality
So, yes, all +5 Tier 3 items are Quality 300, and will have their names colored as the best items in the game (Gold).
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Goblin Squad Member
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What's the difference between a +2 and +4 weapon of the same base type, tier, and enchantment?I believe it's number and type (major/minor) of keywords.
Specifically, I believe the +2 item would have the first two of the three "standard keywords" for the item, while the +4 would have all three standard keywords plus one crafter-set keyword (see Stephen Cheney (Goblinworks Blog: More Info on the Crafting System)).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Probably a mistake to "aim" for SWG.
rather, aim instead at what it offered:
1. it mattered what you put into your recipes. garbage in, garbage out.
2. You had to experiment to find out which items (and their relevant sub-stats) worked best in which slots. and you had plenty of opportunities to do that while leveling.
3. It was a crafting system that allowed you to explore.
4. Building a reputation as a good crafter, and sometimes even BEING a rare crafter meant a LOT. (bioengineer and chef were extremely rare because of either being incredibly specific to another group's playstyle, or in the case of the chef, being incredibly expensive to level - until they allowed stuff like milk to drop more and become gatherable)
5. you could level by crafting. or dancing. or playing music. (pretty sure PFO's system wins out in this category though)
6. you never had to kill the cow boss over and over to get the recipe for a brown fishing pole so that you could level up your crafting skill past a certain point.
7. a blue chair was not superior to a red chair, even if it was harder to make. it cost more to make, so it sold for more. Yes, it really sold.
8. if you crafted a crate of 1000 hunting knives because that was the highest level recipe you had, and you needed to craft a bunch of stuff for xp, you did not have one crate of worthless goods in your inventory. Other players would BUY THAT, because it was a CRITICAL component of their leveling. (in this case, it was needed to create advanced survival tents for another class)
9. If you wanted to change your hairstyle, facial features, makeup, head tentacle positions, and body sliders, there was a class for that, and you could charge other people to do it for them. (seriously, make this a spell or something and it will do wonders for character longevity, especially if players can get a "new identity" out of it. if you're not going to permakill characters, you're going to have players that get frustrated when they want to try out something new but don't have a character slot - and don't get me started on selling character slots, I have like 16 in guild wars 2, and that's one of the reasons I get exhausted logging into that game - I'll never be able to level all those characters)
Sorry that one got so long.
10. It was fun. Not so much, that it was very fun, but it was just unbelievably neat that the non-murderhobo classes actually got to level up by doing what they do. I mean sure, you had a smorgasbord of weapon based classes, both melee and ranged (why melee? because it's science fantasy, which is dumb), but it was nice, that, for the first and last time, the nonviolent classes actually got to be who they wanted to be without having to go full on genocidal to get twelve vampire pancreases or something for a quest. Well, to put it mildly, that's fun. Yes it WAS a torturous, multi-month-long grind to get to the top of your class, unless you had a fat stack of cash and the support of a guild (in which case you could hit master dancer in under an hour, you [REDACTED] [and you know who you are] ). Yes, it was mind-numbingly boring unless you had someone to talk to. Yes, it was hell getting paid a big fat nothing for saving other players days of waiting in the hospital logged out. Didn't matter. The game explored all sorts of crafting options but the biggest and most important was this: Players got to craft the experience of the game by having a fully functional, completely player driven world.
The developers did not even realize that they had virtually eliminated any possibility of dangling a juicy carrot in front of the players to guide them somewhere later on. When they introduced factional armor, it was less than half as powerful as the best player-crafted armor. And when they saw that, they thought they had made a horrible mistake and they entertained the idea of a revamp. It did not even occur to them that a completely stable, friendly, player driven economy could be or should be the desirable outcome.
And then on the darkest day in history, they ruined that player driven economy. And the heavens quaked, and the mountains trembled, and all of them burst into flames and became shrieking skeletons, dying of agony in hell forever. So don't do that.
But it's cool. No pressure.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Keywords don't have three tiers.
Armor increases defenses by 50 per tier; weapons each roll 3d200; T1 weapons use the lowest roll, T2 weapons use the middle roll, and T3 weapons use the highest roll.
That has significant impact in e.g. how often you crit and average damage output, while capping damage at a fairly low value.
T3 weapons aren't nicer because they have more keywords, they're nicer because their median attack roll is about 150, compared to 100 for T2 weapons. I think that someone with base attack 12 (+48? to attack rolls) should be on an even field vs. a weapon of a higher tier wielded by someone with no base attack (but the same other feats).
I was curious about the comparison, I ran the numbers (on excel)for 3d100 and multiplied by 2.
T1: 25.5025 * 2 = 51.005T2: 50.5000 * 2 = 101.000
T3: 75.4975 * 2 = 150.995
However I'm guessing that's slightly off and it's actually roughly 50.5, 100.5, and 150.5.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Those numbers look about right for 3d100.
To form your distribution correctly:
The chance of the lowest die being X is equal to the odds that all three dice are X, plus three times the odds that the first two dice are X and the third is <X, plus three times the odds that the first die is X and both others are <X. Plugging in the actual values (The odds of a die being exactly X are 1/200, the odds of a die being greater than X are 200-X/200)
P(X)=(1/200)^3+3((1/200^2)*(200-x)/200)+3(1/200*((200-x/200)^2)
Similar expressions can be formed to calculate the odds of rolling X for the other two tiers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another way to put it:
L_n(R) is the normalized likelihood of rolling R in tier n
*L_1(R)= [(201-R)^3-(200-R)^3]/8000000
*L_2(R)= [6(R-1)(200-R)+598]/8000000
*L_3(R)= [R^3-(R-1)^3]/8000000
Note that:
*L_1(201-R)=L_3(R)
*L_2(201-R)=L_2(R)
*L_3(201-R)=L_1(R)
These are because T1 is the lowest roll and T3 is the highest, so swapping each number on the die with it's opposite (1->200,200->1,2->199,199->2, etc) flips the roles of the tiers. So T1 is the mirror image of T3 and T2 is the mirror image of itself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Everything Bastress said, x2.
I had a crafting character who specialized in fishing poles. I hunted down the most flexible materials available to make perfect fishing poles. I decorated my house with fishes and fishing poles.
(Incidentally, I loved that I could hang a fish from any wall, at any angle. No "3 small wall slots, 1 large wall slot" garbage in SWG.)
I sold fishing poles straight out of my house, as well as on the auction house. It was glorious, I tell you!
(Actually, fishing poles were pretty easy to make perfect, because their quality relied on just one characteristic of the material - flexibility. Many items required finicky combinations of materials, with high ranks in several different characteristics.)
The Day of Ruining... Ugh. Just ugh. Luckily, I was already drifting away from the game when that happened.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Everything Bastress said, x2.
I had a crafting character who specialized in fishing poles. I hunted down the most flexible materials available to make perfect fishing poles. I decorated my house with fishes and fishing poles.
(Incidentally, I loved that I could hang a fish from any wall, at any angle. No "3 small wall slots, 1 large wall slot" garbage in SWG.)
I sold fishing poles straight out of my house, as well as on the auction house. It was glorious, I tell you!
(Actually, fishing poles were pretty easy to make perfect, because their quality relied on just one characteristic of the material - flexibility. Many items required finicky combinations of materials, with high ranks in several different characteristics.)
The Day of Ruining... Ugh. Just ugh. Luckily, I was already drifting away from the game when that happened.
Everyone says that about that particular game. I am curious why they did not roll that back and/or what the Devs involved have to say about it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Everyone says that about that particular game. I am curious why they did not roll that back and/or what the Devs involved have to say about it.Everything Bastress said, x2.
I had a crafting character who specialized in fishing poles. I hunted down the most flexible materials available to make perfect fishing poles. I decorated my house with fishes and fishing poles.
(Incidentally, I loved that I could hang a fish from any wall, at any angle. No "3 small wall slots, 1 large wall slot" garbage in SWG.)
I sold fishing poles straight out of my house, as well as on the auction house. It was glorious, I tell you!
(Actually, fishing poles were pretty easy to make perfect, because their quality relied on just one characteristic of the material - flexibility. Many items required finicky combinations of materials, with high ranks in several different characteristics.)
The Day of Ruining... Ugh. Just ugh. Luckily, I was already drifting away from the game when that happened.
Here is a link that contains a couple of further links to an ex-developer talking about the situation. Please note that one of the links contains profanity and vitriol.
My favorite quote from the article Rock Paper Shotgun article itself:
That it was a game where the shopkeepers seemed to have the most fun struck me as an incredibly odd approach to an MMO.
He might be right. Shopkeepers and crafters had a blast. Some of the action "classes", not so much. Some of the scientist/crafting "classes" were just plain broken for large chunks of the game's history.
That guy's links seem to be broken for me, but it's an interesting article.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@DeciusBrutus
Yes, presently the system isn't configured to accept post-crafting enchants. This is largely to keep from having to have a separate +0-+5 scale (and, thus, extra granularity) for enchantments. For example, if you see an enchanted item that's +5, you can trust that both the base item effect and the enchantment effect are +5. We might eventually implement a way to enchant after crafting (which would probably entail having to use enchant crystals of the same + as the item), but not for a long time.
Base items still do something useful (and adding enchantments might make the item way more expensive than its value to some players), so it remains to be seen whether the market rejects all unenchanted items forcing all crafters to sideline as enchanters. But, yes, anyone that wants to make enchanted gear needs to have both a crafting skill and Spellcraft.
@Tyncale
Under the current quality system:
* Tier 1 items at +0 are Quality 10-70 and at +5 are Quality 100
* Tier 2 items at +0 are Quality 80-130 and at +5 are Quality 200
* Tier 3 items at +0 are Quality 140-200 and at +5 are Quality 300
* +1 to +4 scales linearly between +0 Quality and +5 QualitySo, yes, all +5 Tier 3 items are Quality 300, and will have their names colored as the best items in the game (Gold).
So unlike TT my cleric type can't put and enhancement on existing arms and armor or improve the enhancement on existing arms and armor.
Also if I want to be able to enchant swords, armor, bows, and shields I would also have to able to create all of those things because enchanting is bound to the construction process, right?
Can multiple characters cooperate in constructing a single item to meet the requirement for the recipe?
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Goblin Squad Member
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>presently the system isn't configured to accept post-crafting enchants.
This is clear and unambiguous.
I think everyone likes the idea of post-crafting enchantment. What priority is given to that coding effort as opposed to all the other things they could be working on, is something that will be determined over time.
With all that said, I wonder if the formation system could be extended to allow for a group crafting function.
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Goblin Squad Member
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>presently the system isn't configured to accept post-crafting enchants.
This is clear and unambiguous.
If we take an item for raw materials and reforge it, is it trapped at the original quality level, or can a skilled person take the iron from a tier one weapon and turn it into tier two grade iron?
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Goblin Squad Member
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From what I understand, raw materials have no quality. (They have varying purity, but that doesn't impact quality.) If you want to make a +2 iron ingot, you need X amount of net pure iron as well as some coal and maybe other stuff. Whether you use a little bit of relatively pure iron ore, a lot of relatively impure iron ore, and/or a pile of goblin swords to get to X, it's not going to matter to the end result, as long as the total iron requirement was fulfilled: a +2 ingot is a +2 ingot.
I'm not aware that you can use actual crafted goods as an ore source at this time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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From what I understand, raw materials have no quality. (They have varying purity, but that doesn't impact quality.) If you want to make a +2 iron ingot, you need X amount of net pure iron as well as some coal and maybe other stuff. Whether you use a little bit of relatively pure iron ore, a lot of relatively impure iron ore, and/or a pile of goblin swords to get to X, it's not going to matter to the end result, as long as the total iron requirement was fulfilled: a +2 ingot is a +2 ingot.
This is my understanding as well. For what it's worth, it seems pretty obvious to me that the "purity" is entirely represented by how much encumbrance a particular unit of that resource has. In Alpha, Encumbrance is not yet implemented. When I get resources from "a few interesting plants", I simply get a "Smooth Yew Sapling". I don't think you'll need 5 of them if they're low purity or 2 of them if they're high purity, I think you'll always need 4 (if that's what the recipe calls for) and the purity is entirely determined by how much those 4 units weigh.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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We'd like to get a system in for player item salvaging eventually, but it's both complicated to figure out what to give you and would have a complex effect on the economy. So we'll want to make sure everything else is working according to plan before tackling that concept.
Nihimon is right that the names on the raw components only indicate different encumbrance ratings. Once you lug them home, the heavy ones are just as good as the light ones.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That is, indeed, the plan.The plan is that if your attack matches the T2 keyword it gets the T2 roll, and if it matches the T3 keyword it gets the T3 roll. You have to have proficiency 2 to buy an attack for a particular weapon up to the level that can match the T2 keyword (level 4 of 6), and proficiency 3 to buy attacks up to matching T3 (level 6 of 6).Does armor need the additional proficiencies to get the 100 or 150 base defense?
Some observations to try to clarify this:
Archer 5 with +3 T2 Medium Armor gives the 100 base defense, but does not give the benefit of the major keyword (Masterwork). Medium armor proficiency 2 is trained. Archer 6 gives the benefit of the major keyword.
So it appears that for armor the proficiency gives access to the defense bonuses and the level of the armor feat gives access to the keywords. They seem to be independent of eachother, not counting proficiency being a training prerequisite for certain levels of armor feats.
I haven't had a chance to test when you get access to the better roll with a T2 weapon, but I can confirm that with level 4 attacks you get access to the Masterwork keyword.