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So, there was a discussion in another Pathfinder forum that brought up armor spikes.
Let's say my fighter wanted to add armor spikes to his leather armor or something, and tried feats to go with it, but found he didn't like it and retrained the feat.
Would it be legal to not keep the spikes on the armor, or go to an armor smith and have the spikes removed from the armor and sell them back to a vendor for half price? (Or hang them on a wall for decoration, or whatever?)
Here's the type of armor spikes that I'm thinking of:
Add-on armor spikes
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I'll try to shape this without bias:
Specifically, a player wishes to take Heirloom Weapon with a suit of armor with armor spikes. Would this person later be able to upgrade to better armor and transfer their heirloom spikes?
Mr. Johnson, I would ask that your NOT put your presumptions based on other threads in other forums on other websites into this one.
The conversation you are referencing with the Heirloom Weapon has nothing to do with either this thread or *MY* character Vincent Ramil, who is a Hellknight, and wears Hellknight Armor, to which I added spikes. I am considering changing the character in light of the recent announcements of the changes to the Cheliax faction, and becoming the Dark Archive. It has nothing, whatsoever to do with your claims.It is possible that an official answer here, or FAQ response, may impact that other thread, but, I don't post hypothetical questions on the boards that have nothing to do with my own characters.
I would prefer that you not make presumptions about the questions I make and the discussions I have on the Paizo forums.
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No, because armor spikes are not a separate item, and thus can't be purchased separately. You don't have "armor" and "armor spikes", you have "spiked armor", a unique item whose stats are determined by the base item (the armor) modified by the extra feature added (armor spikes).
Trying to sell back armor spikes while keeping the armor is akin to having trying tell sell back the "throwing" on a throwing shield.
SCPRedMage .... Thank you for your response. There is a certain amount of logic in your point, but, I feel that must disagree ... It is obvious that I am hoping that I can remove the spikes, otherwise I wouldn't be asking the question. :)
But, the main basis of my particular point of view is that the core rules allow for changing out of individual pieces of armor ... In particular, in the section covering magical armor."Armor is always created so that if the type of armor comes with a pair of boots, a helm, or a set of gauntlets, these pieces can be exchanged for other magic boots, helms, or gauntlets."
While I realize that this doesn't specifically call out spikes, I would like to presume that bracers or vambraces, pauldrons, sabatons, greaves, et al. would also be able to follow this guideline ... Especially since the rules are otherwise silent on the issue.
There are often two types of art which often depict spiked armor: one of which has been mentioned here, where they would be welded on, after a fashion, and the other where they are an armor piece that has replaced the original pauldrons or other part, an example of which I showed one piece of in a photograph up-thread. I am imagining the latter sort.As to your comparison to an enchantment, I would entirely agree. By PFS rules, that cannot be done. But, spikes aren't an enchantment, they are a physical object. I don't feel the situation is the same. There is nothing in the rules that indicate that spikes are a permanent alteration to the armor.
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Armor spikes cost 50g and add 10lb to armor (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/equipment.html, search for armor spikes)
even if you don't have the feat, they can stay -- you only use them if you're willing to take a -4, but they can be there.
A quick note/disclaimer: if you haven't magically enhanced the spikes, we're talking 25g -- which isn't worth this potentially bitter debate. That's less than the cost of a potion of CLW.
Onward:
Because "An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes' effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right," I'd probably rule they could be separated if I was GM'ing and this was the argument approach. After all, if armor enhancements affect only the armor and weapon enhancements affect only the spikes, they're separate pieces, right?
That said, that same paragraph mentions adding the spikes by saying "You can have spikes added to your armor" but says nothing about removing them, so I wouldn't fight for my 1st opinion overly hard if a different GM said "nope,". After all, the verbiage around "adding" spikes strikes me as more welding on than swapping out pieces.
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... The quote you provided exists entirely to clarify that you can mix magic armor with various wondrous items, such as boots, gauntlets, and helms ...
As to the "enchantment", I didn't bring one up. I mentioned throwing shields, which is a non-magical modification to shields presented in the Adventurer's Armory; it is a +50gp modification that allows you to use said shield as a thrown weapon.
Oh! SCPRedMage, my apologies ... I didn't realize there was a non-magical thing like that! I assumed that it was essentially the same as the "Throwing" enchantment for weapons. Interesting to learn that there's a device like that! I'll be sure to look that one up!
T ... The rule of thumb on the matter is if the price is listed as a modifier (such as armor and shield spikes, but notably NOT locked gauntlets), then you cannot buy/sell it separately.
That's probably the most coherent argument that I have heard. The only thing that I am curious about is where it comes from. Is there any chance that you know if this rule of thumb comes from other rulings or FAQs that relate to additions to armor? I would love to be able to read something comparable to this, but, haven't been able to find anything on the boards.
Correct; armor spikes must be "added" at the time the armor is crafted.
This is the only thing that I am having a problem with so far. I'm curious where this is coming from, and if it is something that is official, or just something that is held in practice.
The phrase "RAW" is thrown around a lot (especially in discussions like this), but, as far as I can find, the rules are silent on the issue. There aren't any rules written on the topic that I have been able to manage to get a high enough Search Check on my google-fu to find.
BTW, thanks for taking the time to discuss it in a casual, moderate way without resorting to arguing. It's rare on internet forums.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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There are several things that are clearly mods that can't be sold back seperately and must be added at the time it is made:
Armor Vents
Sawback (on weapons)
Throwing (on shields)
Hollow Hilt
There are a couple that are ambiguous for me:
Armor Spike
Shield Spike
Shield Sconce.
I am not sure if these are detachable parts, or if they are intrinsic modifications of the object. I would be inclined to rule the latter.
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There are several things that are clearly mods that can't be sold back seperately and must be added at the time it is made:
Armor Vents
Sawback (on weapons)
Throwing (on shields)
Hollow HiltThere are a couple that are ambiguous for me:
Armor Spike
Shield Spike
Shield Sconce.I am not sure if these are detachable parts, or if they are intrinsic modifications of the object. I would be inclined to rule the latter.
Throwing is the only one of those that strikes me as impossible to add after creation. The others would be difficult to add and even more difficult to remove from a craftsmanship standpoint, but doable.
Clearly, ymmv.
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Thanks for the post, FLite. I hadn't seen some of those items before, and had to look them up! :)
Some of the items you listed (like the hollow hilt) I can see being able to be added independent of the crafting of the base item to which it is attached. While this is a fantasy game, IRL swords chan have their hilt or pommel changed. Perhaps this is why the item is listed with a direct price, rather than a plus-value which is added to the price of the base item.
That kind of complicates matters, though, because there are various items that are listed in differing ways, but, at least in my imagination, might be removed. I would wholeheartedly agree that a Sawback weapon is absolutely not something that could be changed ... And the language on it actually specifies that it is a modification to a item, and not an item itself.
This is a modification to any light or heavy blade rather than a unique weapon type. The saw blade on the back of the sword lets you use it to perform crude carpentry.
I would like to think that if the designers had intended armor spikes to be ruled that way! it would've been included in the description.
Thanks again for your post, it gave me new things to consider, especially items I hadn't read before!
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Well, Okay, in a home game, yes, most, if not all of those could be added after creation, and possibly removed after creation, but you would essentially be "recrafting" the item. (i.e. adding or removing them would require either a crafting check, except for maybe hollow hilt, which would depend on the weapon. On a mace, you are just swapping out the haft, which may just be threaded on somehow. But on a club or staff, you are essentially remaking the object. Swapping a pommel on a sword should probably be a craft check (admittedly at something like DC 5 or 10) to put it on properly and securely)
I was thinking in PFS terms, where we are not allowed to have craft checks done on our items.
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Throwing is the only one of those that strikes me as impossible to add after creation. The others would be difficult to add and even more difficult to remove from a craftsmanship standpoint, but doable.
I'd tend to agree with you, Zefig.
FLite .... *totally* for a PFS game. I can see it being said that we couldn't simply take the spikes off the armor, but rather that we have to *sell* them ... Which would sort of explain in-game why we only get half their value.
Just going to weigh in with my own PFS opinion (nothing more than my opinion mind you) based on the wording of armor spikes and the addition of cost to armor as opposed to a separate item fee, I (personally) would not let a player sell this back if I was GMing in PFS.
That said, for ambiguous cases when it comes to buying and selling you really only need one GM to agree with you, sell it off in their game, get them to initial it, and as long as it is not specifically forbidden then the next GMs probably can't do much about it. (But do you really wanna be that player?)
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LazarX ... Thanks for the input.
The point you make is one that I considered when I was writing the post. Many people think of armor spikes as something welded into metal plates. The only problem with that is that if they were welded, one wouldn't be able to put spikes, for example, on leather armor.
What I imagine is, essentially, like the photo I posted with my original question. It's very similar to gauntlets or what have you that are a separate piece that can be strapped on, or not, or swapped with the original pauldrons, elbow cops, or whatever that comprises the armor.
If there were something that indicated welded-on spikes only, I would whole-heatedly agree with you, most likely.
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You'll notice that everything that is called out are things that are easy to remove in that they are almost separate pieces of clothing. helm, boots, gloves.Also known as "things that are frequently wondrous items"; alternatively known as "those things some GMs might say prevent you from using magic armor, because they (the GM) say you need to wear the ENTIRE suit of armor to gain the benefits".
The quoted sentence is meant to clarify that wearing magic boots/helms/gauntlets/whatever does NOT prevent one from wearing magic armor, not to set some precedent about modifying existing armor.
I would agree with this point.
Following this rule, I don't think that most GMs would say that one couldn't wear bracers with their armor, even if they're not specifically called out. Despite that most armor is worn with a mundane pair of bracers, they can be swapped out, and another pair can be worn.|
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That said, for ambiguous cases when it comes to buying and selling you really only need one GM to agree with you, sell it off in their game, get them to initial it, and as long as it is not specifically forbidden then the next GMs probably can't do much about it. (But do you really wanna be that player?)
Cathal ... I couldn't help but chuckle a little when I read this. :D
You're right, I don't wanna be "that guy" ... Which is mostly the reason that I decided to ask others what they thought.|
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SCPRedMage ...
Not to be contrary, but, no, that's not what I'm describing. I don't want to be able to add up my armor class by mixing and matching different armor types, or varying amount of armor coverage.
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I simply want to be able to define what my own armor spikes look like. As I showed in the photograph above, and as you're describing, spikes can be added to just about any armor. There's nothing to say that how that's done ... including welding. In the example of leather that you gave, it would be incredibly easy to remove the spikes if they were simply added on with an extra addition of leather to "sandwich" the base of the spikes in.But, I can't imagine that for a padded gambeson, for example. Or hide, or chain. How would spikes be added to a chain hauberk?
And as far as welding, I'm not entirely certain that there's any necessity that they'd be welded onto anything. The suit of armor is still the same suit, and not piecemeal armor, if the pauldrons (or whichever part(s) are spiked) is simply replaced with another pauldron that has spikes. There's nothing that dictates process or crafting method, and as many illustrations of various spikes, and opinions about how spikes are put on can be shown or quoted as there are grains of sand on a shore ...
But, that doesn't mean that one person's idea of them or their attachment is any more valid (strictly speaking, by the rules) than anyone else's.
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Here's a question that's a slight sidetrack but somewhat relevant. How do armor spikes and armor interact when it comes to being masterwork.
We know that armor spikes can be enchanted as weapons separately and that in order to enchant something it needs to be of masterwork quality.
But what I'm not sure of is does buying masterwork spiked armor make it masterwork both as armor and as a weapon? What would be the total cost?
Similarly, how is such armor affected by the masterwork transformation spell?