Bane weapons, demons and such


Rules Questions


Hello,

I have a PC in my game that has a +1 chaotic and evil outsider bane composite longbow.

1 What I want to know is, do these two banes stack? Meaning that the longbow would be considered a +5 weapon and do an extra 4d6+5 damage to CE outsiders (demons).

2 Do bane weapons have the power to send the enhancement bonus above 5? Say I have a +5 composite longbow, which has an evil outsider bane on it. Would it be considered a +7 weapon versus evil outsiders, and do 2d6+7 damage to them (not counting the 1d8 plus bonus the bow normally gets)?


Generally, like enhancements do not stack...that said I'm not sure in this case. I'd personally lean they don't stack, but don't have anything definitive to back that up.

For the second question, I believe the answer is yes.

Sczarni

You can't put multiple Bane enchantments on the same weapon. Even though you're selecting different creatures types, it's still the same enchantment.

A +4 weapon with Bane on it effectively becomes +6 versus its designated creature type. This is one of the ways to achieve a +6 enhancement equivalent.


The enhancement bonus does not stack. There was a big debate about this before.

IIRC the 2d6 might stack by RAW, but not many people agreed it was RAI.


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FAQ


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Okay, this is what the FAQ said:

"You can apply multiple bane special abilities to the same weapon. For example, you can have a +1 dragon- and fey-bane longsword, which has an increased enhancement bonus and damage against dragons and against fey.

If you have multiple bane effects on a weapon and attack a creature against which more than one bane applies (such as a chaotic- and evil-outsider bane weapon used against a demon), the effects do not stack: the weapon's enhancement bonus is only +2 higher than its actual enhancement bonus, and it only deals +2d6 points of damage against that opponent.

(Compare to fighter weapon training or ranger favored enemy bonuses, both of which say you use the highest bonus if more than one bonus applies.)"

From what this says, I would guess that you CAN have more than one bane on a weapon, but they don't stack if applied to one target.

Sigh. The problem is, I have a game module which touts that longbow as the ultimate demon slaying bow. If the chaotic outsider bane and the evil outsider bane do not stack, this throws the whole concept of the weapon out the window. This thing even penalizes the bearer's to hit, reflex saves, and hit point total for having bonded with it. It's a Weapon of Legacy from the module Expedition to the Demonweb Pits.

I dunno what to do. Right now, my impulse is to say that they DO stack in my game, assuming you find a CE (instead of NE or even LE) evil outsider to target, if only because of the theme of the bow.

Sczarni

Ah. I amend my statement earlier, then. What I probably took away from that FAQ was that "it just isn't worth it to add multiple Bane enchantments to the same weapon".


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

"Expedition to the Demonweb Pits" was a D&D module, and maybe multiple bane properties were designed to stack in D&D. If the weapon is designed to be special like that, I'd just keep it like that.


Maybe I could replace the Chaotic outsider bane effect with something else worth the same amount? It can't be a Holy, since that is already going to be put on the bow and it's worth a +2 not +1.

3 What do you guys suggest?

Also, so far only one person has replied to my question 2. Anyone else?


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I would keep both bane properties as designed, and would allow them to stack in this unique case.

Point 2: Yes, bane can increase the enhancement bonus over +5. See this FAQ.

Sczarni

The first two replies answered your second question, and (just now) Zaister is also in line with everyone else.


Does anyone know for sure if bane properties stacked in 3.5D&D?


Quote:

I have a PC in my game that has a +1 chaotic and evil outsider bane composite longbow.

1 What I want to know is, do these two banes stack? Meaning that the longbow would be considered a +5 weapon and do an extra 4d6+5 damage to CE outsiders (demons).

If it is possible to get the effect of multiple bane effects, it would only apply to the extra damage, no the bonus to the weapons enhancement.

Quote:
A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe.

So a +1 chaotic and evil outsider bane composite longbow, if used against a chaotic evil outsider, would only be treated as a +3 weapon, not a +5 weapon. The weapons actual enhancement bonus is +1.

However, it would (or should) get both bonus to damage, for a total of +4d6.


Piccolo wrote:

Okay, this is what the FAQ said:

"You can apply multiple bane special abilities to the same weapon. For example, you can have a +1 dragon- and fey-bane longsword, which has an increased enhancement bonus and damage against dragons and against fey.

If you have multiple bane effects on a weapon and attack a creature against which more than one bane applies (such as a chaotic- and evil-outsider bane weapon used against a demon), the effects do not stack: the weapon's enhancement bonus is only +2 higher than its actual enhancement bonus, and it only deals +2d6 points of damage against that opponent.

(Compare to fighter weapon training or ranger favored enemy bonuses, both of which say you use the highest bonus if more than one bonus applies.)"

From what this says, I would guess that you CAN have more than one bane on a weapon, but they don't stack if applied to one target.

Sigh. The problem is, I have a game module which touts that longbow as the ultimate demon slaying bow. If the chaotic outsider bane and the evil outsider bane do not stack, this throws the whole concept of the weapon out the window. This thing even penalizes the bearer's to hit, reflex saves, and hit point total for having bonded with it. It's a Weapon of Legacy from the module Expedition to the Demonweb Pits.

I dunno what to do. Right now, my impulse is to say that they DO stack in my game, assuming you find a CE (instead of NE or even LE) evil outsider to target, if only because of the theme of the bow.

Thanks for the FAQ. I never knew they had an official answer. I would just make it a holy bane bow or give it some other special power to avoid players potentially stacking bane, which can potentially be really bad.


Piccolo wrote:
Does anyone know for sure if bane properties stacked in 3.5D&D?

I will look for an official rule but I doubt it. Bane references the original enhancement of the weapon so they would both build on that, not each other barring a dev saying otherwise.


Call the bow a "Minor Artifact" and allow the banes to stack.


Gwaithador wrote:
Call the bow a "Minor Artifact" and allow the banes to stack.

Yup. It's a home game. If you want the bow to be the ultimate demon slayer, nothing wrong with a little houserule to take care of the problem.


No ruling says they stack, but just like Paizo, they sometimes used freelancers and things get past editing. They could also have it pass because it fit the story.


Jeraa wrote:

So a +1 chaotic and evil outsider bane composite longbow, if used against a chaotic evil outsider, would only be treated as a +3 weapon, not a +5 weapon. The weapons actual enhancement bonus is +1.

However, it would (or should) get both bonus to damage, for a total of +4d6.

No, they don't stack, it just gets 2d6.

Read the FAQ


stuart haffenden wrote:
Jeraa wrote:

So a +1 chaotic and evil outsider bane composite longbow, if used against a chaotic evil outsider, would only be treated as a +3 weapon, not a +5 weapon. The weapons actual enhancement bonus is +1.

However, it would (or should) get both bonus to damage, for a total of +4d6.

No, they don't stack, it just gets 2d6.

Read the FAQ

I don't care what the FAQ says. That was just going by the wording of the Bane ability itself.


Jeraa wrote:
stuart haffenden wrote:
Jeraa wrote:

So a +1 chaotic and evil outsider bane composite longbow, if used against a chaotic evil outsider, would only be treated as a +3 weapon, not a +5 weapon. The weapons actual enhancement bonus is +1.

However, it would (or should) get both bonus to damage, for a total of +4d6.

No, they don't stack, it just gets 2d6.

Read the FAQ

I don't care what the FAQ says. That was just going by the wording of the Bane ability itself.

By the wording I would say you get the 4d6, but not the double stacking on enhancement. I gave the short reason above. I have a more detailed explanation somewhere on the site.


Incidentally, Chaotic and Evil Outsider Bane are not valid bane enchantments.

It has to be a specific creature subtype (demon, demodand, qlippoth are all different CE outsider subtypes) to be a legitimate bane enchantment.

We have Holy and Axiomatic to deal with alignments.


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Cranky Dog wrote:

Incidentally, Chaotic and Evil Outsider Bane are not valid bane enchantments.

It has to be a specific creature subtype (demon, demodand, qlippoth are all different CE outsider subtypes) to be a legitimate bane enchantment.

We have Holy and Axiomatic to deal with alignments.

Incorrect. Bane just requires to to chose a subtype.

Quote:
Evil Subtype: This subtype is usually applied to outsiders native to the evil-aligned outer planes. Evil outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are evil-aligned (see Damage Reduction, page 299).

Evil, Good, Law, and Chaos are all subtypes.


Jeraa got that one before I could. Normally going with the evil outsider bane is the best option.


Thanks for the advice. I intend to avoid this mess altogether and replace the chaotic outsider bane with Endless Ammunition. The pluses don't match, but then again EA isn't all that offensive in nature.

Liberty's Edge

It was at best debatable whether bane stacked in 3.5. I moderated a Living Greyhawk forum on the module in question and it was known to be problematic back then as well. At one point, we had assembled a list of over 350 rules problems with the module in question. It was released late in 3.5's publishing life and appears to have had a second class treatment regarding the technical aspects of the editing process. It's a nice yarn. It's just annoying and requires a lot of tweaks to get it to line up with 3.5; that's even more true for PF.


wraithstrike wrote:
No ruling says they stack, but just like Paizo, they sometimes used freelancers and things get past editing. They could also have it pass because it fit the story.

Yeah, there are some weapons that exist in APs and stuff that technically violate the rules. Can't remember where I saw a developer comment on a question about one of them but essentially it boils down to a variation on the Rule of Cool. "Hey, it's thematic and it's more exciting than [generic +x longsword v. 237]."


fretgod99 wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
No ruling says they stack, but just like Paizo, they sometimes used freelancers and things get past editing. They could also have it pass because it fit the story.
Yeah, there are some weapons that exist in APs and stuff that technically violate the rules. Can't remember where I saw a developer comment on a question about one of them but essentially it boils down to a variation on the Rule of Cool. "Hey, it's thematic and it's more exciting than [generic +x longsword v. 237]."

IIRC a major NPC in Eberron, Vol, was not rules legal. :)

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