Is the Eidolon build "Kali" legal in Pathfinder?

[Lafouboy]

I have seen many things having to do with this "Kali build" (where an Eidolon evolves a ton of arms and equips them with weapons to get a ridiculous amount of attacks in a full attack). I am pretty much a noob at Pathfinder and am currently arguing with a person in my session whether or not this build is legal. I can't find any solid proof one way or the other whether this build is allowed by the rules (if it adheres to the Pathfinder guidelines). If it does, how does it exactly work?

So far, the image in my head (from what I have read previously) is that the Eidolon is allowed to make as many attacks as it has weapons, then make iterative attacks (+11 BAB would mean 3 attacks from each weapon if I am correct), but at the multi-weapon wielding penalties (which are lessened if you have the multi-weapon proficiency/double-slice feats). This build, from what I have read, makes an Eidolon a glass cannon that shreds all in its way, but the downside to it is that to make it fully effective, it is expensive in evolution points, feats, and gold (to fully enchant the weapons going in each hand).

The threads I have referenced for this information are:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nx90?Eidolon-Multiple-Weapons-question http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/two-weapon-fighting-combat---fin al
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/multiweapon-fighting-combat http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/double-slice-combat---final http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-325052.html

So yeah. Is this actually a legal build? If so, mind sharing all of the details of why it is (same goes for if it is not)?

Please only people that are extremely confident in their knowledge of the rules reply. I am already confused enough about the rulings on this, without peoples' personal opinions on what they think the rules MAY be. I need FACTS that you are confident in (and can back up with quotes/rulings if possible).

Thank you; you are all wonderful.

[Pupsocket]

1) You only get iteratives from one weapon, and pseudo-iteratives from two-weapon fighting feats.

2) Multiweapon fighting is not Society legal.

[Lafouboy]

Pupsocket wrote:

1) You only get iteratives from one weapon, and pseudo-iteratives from two-weapon fighting feats.

2) Multiweapon fighting is not Society legal.

Society legal? I don't know what that means. Mostly for the reason that this group I joined is my first ever RP group (it was a group of people from work that invited me to join them; I searched for an Eidolon build to make things simple, but it seems to have complicated things with the "Kali" build).

[Pupsocket]

Outside society play, a level 3 Eidolon might look something like this:
Biped
Feats: EWP: Wakizashi, Multiweapon Fighting
Evolutions: Lims (arms)*3 (+limbs, limbs, claws) (assumes 1*Extra Evolution)
Str 17, Dex 13, etc.

Full attack: Wakizashi +4/1d6+3/18-20, Wakizashi +4/+4/+4/4/+4/+4/+4, 1d6+1/18-20. That's 8 attacks. And this is just level 3, off the top of my head.

[Lafouboy]

Pupsocket wrote:

Outside society play, a level 3 Eidolon might look something like this:

Biped
Feats: EWP: Wakizashi, Multiweapon Fighting
Evolutions: Lims (arms)*3 (+limbs, limbs, claws) (assumes 1*Extra Evolution)
Str 17, Dex 13, etc.

Full attack: Wakizashi +4/1d6+3/18-20, Wakizashi +4/+4/+4/4/+4/+4/+4, 1d6+1/18-20. That's 8 attacks. And this is just level 3, off the top of my head.

With multi-weapon fighting, isn't the penalty to each attack still -4 to the overall modifier?

[Pupsocket]

Making a Kali build is totally legit. Things to notice:

1) Only the primary hand gets iterative attacks.

2) The off-hand attacks get half str bonus to damage (until Double Slice) and half power attack.

3) Multiweapon Fighting only allows one attack per additional limb.

[Azten]

Yes it is.

[Diego Rossi]

Keep in mind the fun of the other people at the table.
Rolling 8 or more to hit if you aren't organized is a pain for the other players as it eat gaming time.
On the other hand you don't want to spend all 8 attacks on a creature if the first or second hit down it and you have the possibility to select a second target.

A possible way to do reduce the time expended is to buy 8 different d20 and color code your attacks in a fixed sequence, like:
- Black dice is my primary hand and first attack;
- gray with red number second attack,
- gray with black number 3rd attack
and so on.

Then you should give a sequence of targets (it is bad form to select your target) after you know what you have rolled as a to hit).

That way you can roll all the attacks at once, start to apply the damage, 1 attack at a time, against the primary target, and, after it is downed, you can start to apply the results to your second and subsequent targets.

There are other ways to speed up the attack resolution, the important thing is to be organized.

[Lafouboy]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Keep in mind the fun of the other people at the table.

Rolling 8 or more to hit if you aren't organized is a pain for the other players as it eat gaming time.
On the other hand you don't want to spend all 8 attacks on a creature if the first or second hit down it and you have the possibility to select a second target.

A possible way to do reduce the time expended is to buy 8 different d20 and color code your attacks in a fixed sequence, like:
- Black dice is my primary hand and first attack;
- gray with red number second attack,
- gray with black number 3rd attack
and so on.

Then you should give a sequence of targets (it is bad form to select your target) after you know what you have rolled as a to hit).

That way you can roll all the attacks at once, start to apply the damage, 1 attack at a time, against the primary target, and, after it is downed, you can start to apply the results to your second and subsequent targets.

There are other ways to speed up the attack resolution, the important thing is to be organized.

Okay then. Well thanks everyone. This helps me understand the rules a lot better.

Question (as a newbie), you said that you can choose targets with the extra attacks, are you saying that I can go "Primary attack + 3 off hands attack this monster, then 3 off hands attack this monster next to him, then the rest of the off hands attack the last monster in my range" and then I roll for damage?

[Azten]

He's saying you choose which hit goes where when you rol it, so yeah.

[David knott 242]

The Kali build is generally legal but impractical for a campaign where you reach moderately high levels. It is very expensive to come up with a magic weapon for each arm, let alone weapons with level appropriate enhancement bonuses. Also, all attacks except for those with your primary weapon are secondary attacks, which greatly reduces your damage output.

You get maximum possible damage out of maximizing size, having a number or primary natural attacks equal to the legal maximum for your level, and investing in an Amulet of Mighty Fists.

[blahpers]

Yes. Attacks occur in sequence, so you can decide whom to attack next following each attack. However, you must decide before rolling the attack roll for a given attack; once you've rolled the d20, that attack is locked in.

[blahpers]

David knott 242 wrote:

The Kali build is generally legal but impractical for a campaign where you reach moderately high levels. It is very expensive to come up with a magic weapon for each arm, let alone weapons with level appropriate enhancement bonuses. Also, all attacks except for those with your primary weapon are secondary attacks, which greatly reduces your damage output.

You get maximum possible damage out of maximizing size, having a number or primary natural attacks equal to the legal maximum for your level, and investing in an Amulet of Mighty Fists.

If I'm pushing 8+ attacks, I'd probably just crit-fish with heavy picks and not worry too much about enhancement bonuses.