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Hello,
I'm teaching my Animal Companion the Flank trick, but I'm unsure whether it would always generate an AoO or try to avoid it.
Does the animal try to flank without AoO, or not? And if so, is there a way to avoid this, besides moving myself to flank side instead?
It takes the most direct path to flank, provoking any attacks of opportunity along the way.
I'd allow the animal to attempt an Acrobatics check to avoid an AoO, though.
That's what I thought, it's kinda hard though. I mean Animal Companion is not a summon, so I actually care if it dies!
I'll have to check what I can do, probably I'll pump Acrobatics on my PC and I'll be doing the check.
Thanks!
Just because the AC has a trick doesn't mean it uses it by itself. Just only give the flank command when it is relatively save to do.
Like having it engage normally during the first round and after that, when a 5ft step is enough give it the flank command.
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I would say it does its best to get into flank as fast as possible. If there is a path that takes it into flank that does not provoke and which takes the same number of move actions, It takes the safe path.
I would also say that if it has a choice to f which of two opponents to take attacks from, it takes the least scary looking hit.
I am not completely sure an animal companion cant be trained to avoid attacks of opportunity. Wolves and other pack hunters basically do this naturally. The attack from multiple directions, moving around (in some cases) dangerous prey animals without getting nailed by hooves and antlers. If an intelligent human trains them working with such instincts it seems like you could teach it to move far enough away to avoid AoOs. Maybe excluding odd reach situations (spears, or creatures with unusual reach) but basic 5ft reach situations seems workable to me.
I always assumed that avoiding AoOs is instinctive. There's a reason horses aren't normally willing to charge a line of pikemen head on.
Then again, I'd have said the same about flanking.
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Flank (DC 20): You can instruct an animal to attack a foe you point to and always attempt to be adjacent to (and threatening) that foe. If you or an ally is also threatening the foe, the animal attempts to flank the foe, if possible. It always takes attacks of opportunity. The animal must know the attack trick before it can learn this trick.
Flank (DC 20): You can instruct an animal to attack a foe you point to and always attempt to be adjacent to (and threatening) that foe. If you or an ally is also threatening the foe, the animal attempts to flank the foe, if possible. It always takes attacks of opportunity. The animal must know the attack trick before it can learn this trick.
Wow, that actually sounds like the flank trick in and of itself provokes an attack of opportunity, which can't possibly be right.
Nothing in the text before that says that the animal moves to flank in a single round, takes the most direct route, etc., so there's nothing that would force it to provoke an AoO until that line.
(Of course, I have issues with the Flank trick overall, because pack animals naturally flank on instinct. Wolves harrying their prey even use tactics that would be equivalent to teamwork feats like Feint Partner. Until the Animal Archive came along, any pack predators as animal companions automatically knew how to flank in combat. Now, suddenly, none of them do.)
This has come up in our home and PFS games. Our Local VL runs it like this:
You give the command, the pet will try its best to flank but won't do anything stupid. It goes straight in and then tries to keep flanking with 5ft steps if it can.
Everyone knows animals are complete idiots who run themselves onto swords all the time and have no survival instincts. Or... maybe they aren't that dumb.
More seriously, I'd say they avoid AoOs when taking actions unless they absolutely have to provoke. I think its really silly if they don't.
Sorry guys couldn't be on earlier.
That's what's bother me. Animal wouldn't put itself on harms way just for fun.
My idea is to train the animal on Acrobatics, so it would use this ability to avoid AoO. That way I don't waste actions on myself to flank or can use it to help a buddy to get flanking position.
My thought is that if possible it would avoid AoO, unless there's no other way.
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Flank (DC 20): You can instruct an animal to attack a foe you point to and always attempt to be adjacent to (and threatening) that foe. If you or an ally is also threatening the foe, the animal attempts to flank the foe, if possible. It always takes attacks of opportunity. The animal must know the attack trick before it can learn this trick.
I assumed that referred to moving up to the foe, and if the foe does something that provokes, the animal attacks. (If the animal takes the shortest path in spite of AoO, it would say the animal always provokes. The person being hit is provoking an attack, the person hitting is taking an attack.)
It takes the most direct path to flank, provoking any attacks of opportunity along the way.
Citation? This doesn't appear to be a rule.
Animals know how to circle around prey.
I assumed that referred to moving up to the foe, and if the foe does something that provokes, the animal attacks. (If the animal takes the shortest path in spite of AoO, it would say the animal always provokes. The person being hit is provoking an attack, the person hitting is taking an attack.)Flank (DC 20): You can instruct an animal to attack a foe you point to and always attempt to be adjacent to (and threatening) that foe. If you or an ally is also threatening the foe, the animal attempts to flank the foe, if possible. It always takes attacks of opportunity. The animal must know the attack trick before it can learn this trick.
That makes much more sense!
I didn't see anywhere that the animal intentionally provokes AoO unless requested by the Handler.
Flank just means the animal gets in flanking position, but it's quite confusing whether it would take a long path or not.
It is an animal after all with 3 INT (used upgrade on it), but still it might create conflict on how it's handled during the Combat.
Does anyone know if there's been any FAQ about it?
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It takes the most direct path to flank, provoking any attacks of opportunity along the way.Citation? This doesn't appear to be a rule.
That's how I interpret the Trick to work: "the animal attempts to flank the foe, if possible. It always takes attacks of opportunity".
I strongly disagree with Flite's interpretation. Consider what that would mean if he was correct. Animal Companions without the Flank Trick wouldn't be taking their Attacks of Opportunity if their "prey" provoked.
Animals know how to circle around prey.
Wild animals do, yes. Companions and purchased animals need to be taught how to fight their "prey", and that's done via this Trick.
What this trick does is twofold: it allows your Animal Companion to flank, and it takes the most direct path to do so, provoking attacks of opportunity as it does so.
If you believe it does two different things, they'd be: allowing your Animal Companion to flank, and allowing it to take attacks of opportunity when its "prey" provokes (which means normal animals wouldn't do this).
I prefer to believe it's the first one.
I strongly disagree with Flite's interpretation. Consider what that would mean if he was correct. Animal Companions without the Flank Trick wouldn't be taking their Attacks of Opportunity if their "prey" provoked.
I don't think anything Flite said prevents an animal from taking an AoO normally.
Sometimes I wonder if I need to teach my animal how to eat, breath, and sleep without pushing it according to the game rules. Feels like it sometimes.
That's how I interpret the Trick to work: "the animal attempts to flank the foe, if possible. It always takes attacks of opportunity".
Thats more than a little odd.
Wolfy= W
Goblin=G
Barbarian=B
Rogue= R
...............R
W......BG
So you're telling me instead of flanking with the rogue, he;ll draw the aoo and flank with the barbarian because thats what he always does?
I strongly disagree with Flite's interpretation. Consider what that would mean if he was correct. Animal Companions without the Flank Trick wouldn't be taking their Attacks of Opportunity if their "prey" provoked.
A lot of things have people doing things they can already do. (beast speech letting you talk to critters comes to mind)
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I don't understand your diagram.
(though it's not you, it's me)
I'm talking about if you run 30 feet up to your opponent, and then command your wolf to flank, it'll move to flank, but it won't skirt around the perimeter to do it. It'll run right up to the bad guy and then go around.
It's much easier to explain with minis.
I'm talking about if you run 30 feet up to your opponent, and then command your wolf to flank, it'll move to flank, but it won't skirt around the perimeter to do it. It'll run right up to the bad guy and then go around.
So... it commits suicide? Because... stupid animals love throwing themselves into fires, rushing rivers, T-rexes mouths, and into swords all the time and players love it when their beloved companions die because derp?
In BNW's example there are two people to flank. A rogue and a barbarian. The rogue is on the adjacent side already, so the animal can move up without provoking AoOs. However the barbarian is on the same side as the wolf, so the wolf, if he had to provoke as many as possible, is going to run around and try to provoke as many as possible to flank with the barbarian instead of the rogue.
Also, keep in mind that even if something says the animal will take AoOs, there isn't anything saying they won't already. Sort of silly if you say "sic Em Taylor!"(taylor is a T-rex btw), and Taylor runs up behind them to flank, gets an AoO from seven creatures along the way and from the creature he's fighting to flank, then when that creature moves away... the T-rex just decides to not bite him because you didn't teach him the take or avoid AoO tricks?
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Alright, I'm at home now, and not on my phone, so I can actually type this out, because it seems I've been confusing people (not that I'm guaranteeing this will be any less confusing). Take what I have to say at face value, and don't tear it apart word for word like what's been going on with the Brass Knuckles or Wizard/Cleric threads.
[The Animal Companion] takes the most direct path to flank, provoking any attacks of opportunity along the way.
I'd allow the animal to attempt an Acrobatics check to avoid an AoO, though.
I was saying three things in this statement:
1) An Animal Companion with the Flank trick takes the most direct route possible in order to fulfill its master's command. 1a) This is the shortest route possible. 1b) If the Companion could do it in one move, it will. 1c) It won't spend more than a single move if more than a single move is not required. 1d) If you or an ally are not already on the opposite side of the opponent you want to flank with, this most likely means your Companion will walk up to it, and then walk around it, barring other obvious obstacles/hazards/creatures that might prevent such a route from happening.
2) Because of the direct nature of this path, the Companion will most likely incur some Attacks of Opportunity, be it from the target of the command or other creatures it happens to pass by on its way there. 2a) This does not mean it automatically, always, 100% of the time, has to provoke Attacks of Opportunity; it means the Companion will not divert from the most direct path to achieve a flank, and that such movement may incur Attacks of Opportunity. 2b) If it has to walk past one enemy in order to flank a different enemy, that will most likely incur an Attack of Opportunity. 2c) If it has to walk past three enemies in order to flank a specific enemy, that will most likely incur Attacks of Opportunity. 2d) When it approaches the target of the Flank trick, unless there is already someone on the other side, the Companion must continue to move into a flanking position; this movement, since both creatures are at this point adjacent to one another, will most likely incur an Attack of Opportunity. 2e) Note that all of these instances assume these opponents have any Attacks of Opportunity left. 2f) The Flank Trick is not magically generating Attacks of Opportunity where none exist.
3) I, as the generous GM that I am, was saying that "I'd allow the animal to attempt an Acrobatics check to avoid an AoO". 3a) The Trick is silent on whether or not this is even an option. 3b) I believe that anytime you would provoke an Attack of Opportunity due to movement, you may attempt an Acrobatics check (assuming you can, like you're not over-encumbered in heavy armor) to avoid the Attack of Opportunity. 3c) Yes, I'm aware that this costs extra movement and does not align with the "most direct path" mantra I was mentioning earlier. 3d) I'm simply allowing it as an option out of the kindness of my heart.
All of that meaning, packed into one tiny comment. That is how I understand, and interpret, the Flank Trick to work. This would be much easier to explain if we were face to face and had 3 minis on a grid.
Anywhom, just after that FLite (who's a wonderful guy I game with and see all the time) said "I would say it does its best to get into flank as fast as possible. If there is a path that takes it into flank that does not provoke and which takes the same number of move actions, It takes the safe path". I disagree with this statement, given reason #2 explained earlier.
After that Gwen Smith said "Wow, that actually sounds like the flank trick in and of itself provokes an attack of opportunity, which can't possibly be right". I believe this is where the idea of the Trick magically generating extra Attacks of Opportunity came from. I disagree that the Trick does this. I was simply saying that the Companion will provoke Attacks of Opportunity as normal due to moving through threatened squares.
After this several posters began analyzing the wording of "It always takes attacks of opportunity", and pointed out that this means the Companion will always take attacks of opportunity presented to it, not that it always provokes Attack of Opportunity during its movement towards a flanking position.
I accept that this may be a possibility, but I caution the repercussions of it being so.
If these words mean what you are all claiming, then that would imply that the general rule is that Companions don't take Attacks of Opportunity when they are presented them. I find that a hard rule to accept, and it would upset the vast majority of Animal Companion classes if it were true. Because of the scope of this proposed general rule, I choose to believe that when the text reads, "It always takes attacks of opportunity", it is actually a typo, and actually reads, ""It always takes provokes attacks of opportunity".
This reading, to me, is the foundation for the answer I provided in my very first comment in this thread.
Did that all make sense?
I would say that on training, the trainer has to decide if he wants it to do it quickly but recklessly or safely but might take a few turns. I basically, think it should be based on how the animal was taught.
Like if you give it the mobility feat it would make sense to train it to just go straight for the foe, while if it's something that is less tanky it would probably be good to have it avoid enemies.
any talk on natural animal survival instinct is at fault because you specifically trained the animal to break it's natural instincts.
I am just going to hit the FAQ button on the first post because there is no way it makes sense to provoke if it can flank without doing so. My 2 yr old nephew could judge(to an extent) reach to avoid adults he did not like, and he has never been in combat.
PS: I think I know what it means, but I can't prove it so I won't bother trying.