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Hey all!
Some of you may recognize me as the lead designer for Dreamscarred Press' upcoming Akashic Mysteries release (which, btw, will have an update posted by tomorrow with a new, simplified, class layout for the Daevic and a few other additions!).
On these and other forums I see a lot of talk from people who feel that the Fighter is behind the curve compared to the overall performance of other classes. Common complaints seem to be:
* Too few skills for a class that doesn't have other options for interacting with the social aspect of the game.
* Poor saves for a class traditionally expected to be able to defend other party members.
*Bravery is an extremely weak and situational class feature, and often insufficient even in the situations where it is applicable.
* CMB/CMD scales poorly and the Fighter has to invest too heavily to benefit from using maneuvers that may be completely useless or unable to reliably affect opponents with high CMD's.
* The Fighter lacks narrative power.
What I'm wondering (and this is primarily pointed at the people who agree with the above points), is if you'd be interested in a supplement that included a collection of Fighter feats specifically intended to address the above concerns while following these general principals:
* Cannot invalidate existing core materials.
* Cannot create power creep by boosting other classes as much/more than the Fighter.
* Should grant the Fighter skill bonuses that scale beyond the benefits he can get from simply taking Skill Focus without actually replacing or eclipsing Skill Focus as an option.
* Should fortify the Fighter's weak features without boosting the Fighter's combat facility to a point where his combat edge is overwhelming.
My idea was a supplement of around 50 feats following the above criteria and addressing the concerns brought up before. This isn't a DSP product or something that I've discussed at length with any particular publisher yet, at this point, I'm just gauging interest.
This new line of [Bravery] feats would be Fighter specific and would look something like this:
Your voice rings out the clarion call of battle, fortifying the hearts and minds of those who follow you.
Prerequisites: Int 13 or Cha 13, Bravery class feature
Benefit: As a swift action, you may grant all allies who can hear your voice the benefits of your Bravery class feature for a number of rounds equal to 1 + your Intelligence or Charisma modifier, whichever is greater. If you have any feats that modify your Bravery class feature, such as the Stubborn Bravery feat, you share those benefits as well. You may use this ability 1/day plus one additional time per day for each Bravery feat you know in addition to this one.
When you first heard the phrase “it’s best to just take the bull by the horns” you took it literally.
Prerequisites: Str 15, Bravery class feature
Benefit: You gain a bonus to CMB and CMD to perform or resist a grapple attempt, and to your AC against attacks of opportunity provoked while initiating a grapple, equal to the bonus granted by your Bravery class feature. This bonus is doubled if the grappling opponent is at least 2 size categories larger than yourself.
Not even the roaring belch of a black powder weapon gives you pause.
Prerequisites: Bravery class feature
Benefit: You gain a dodge bonus to armor class equal to your Bravery bonus against all firearm attacks that target touch AC. In addition, as long as you are wearing medium or heavy, when a firearm attack would successfully deal damage to you, you may spend an immediate action to make an attack roll using your base attack bonus + your Dexterity modifier + your Bravery class feature bonus. If the total result of this roll is equal to or greater than the attack that would have hit you, you instead deflect the attack and take no damage. You may use this secondary ability 1/ day plus 1 additional time per day for each Bravery feat you know in addition to this one.
Your fearless disposition leads you to push the line when it comes to safety, running through hell’s own fires if that’s what the situation demands.
Prerequisites: Bravery class feature
Benefit: You gain a bonus on Reflex saves against spells and abilities that target an area of effect, such as a fireball spell, equal to the bonus granted by your Bravery class feature. In addition, you gain a +2 competence bonus on Acrobatics checks made to move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity.
Your fearsome reputation goes before you, making it easier for you to exert authority and command respect.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 3, Bravery class feature, Charisma 11+
Benefit: You may pick a region where you are well known; this region must be a settlement or settlements with a total population of 1,000 or fewer people, and you gain a competence bonus equal to twice the bonus granted by your Bravery class feature on Diplomacy and Intimidate checks to influence people in that area. As your reputation grows, additional areas learn of you and your bonuses apply to even more people. These new areas must be in or adjacent to an area where you performed some heroic deed, such as defeating bandits, slaying a dragon, or some other act of note. At 6th level, the region may be a settlement or settlements with a total population of 5,000 or fewer people. At 10th level, the region may be a settlement or settlements with a total population of up to 25,000 people. At 14th level, the region may be a settlement or settlements with a total population of up to 100,000 people. At 18th level and above, your renown has spread far, and most civilized folk know of you (GM's discretion).
You’ve climbed mountains, swam rivers, and then fought all day at the end of it.
Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +3, Bravery class feature
Benefit: You gain a bonus on climb and swim checks equal to the bonus granted by your Bravery class feature. This bonus is doubled if you are you making the check as part of an attempt to catch a falling character while climbing or when making a swim check to avoid nonlethal damage from fatigue.
Your powerful physique and unstoppable ferocity allows you toss lesser foes around with contemptuous ease.
Prerequisites: Str 15, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, base attack bonus +3, Bravery class feature
Benefit: You gain a bonus on bull rush attempts equal to the bonus granted by your Bravery class feature. Each time your Bravery bonus increases (+2, +3, etc.) the maximum size creature you can perform a bull rush against increases by one size category. In addition, you may perform a bull rush maneuver against two opponents simultaneously; make one bull rush attempt and compare it to both opponent’s CMD. If the bull rush fails against either opponent, it automatically fails against the other. The opponents must be within 5 feet of each other and you must be able to reach both opponents.
By spending time in careful study and contemplation, you may achieve mastery with any weapon.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 9, Bravery class feature, Weapon Training 2 class feature
Benefit: By spending one hour testing the weight and balance of a specific weapon, you are able to form a bond with the chosen weapon and may apply the benefits of your weapon training class feature as though the weapon were of the type you selected for the weapon training 2 class feature. This applies only to the selected weapon and does not extend to other weapons of that type. You may apply this benefit to a new weapon by spending another hour in practice, but cannot have more than one specific weapon benefiting from this ability at a time. In addition, you gain a competence bonus to CMD against disarm and sunder attempts equal to the bonus granted by your bravery class feature when wielding a weapon that benefits from your weapon training class feature.
When someone tries to tell you what to do, your instinct is to do the opposite.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 3, Bravery class feature
Benefit: The bonus to Will saves granted by your Bravery class feature applies to spells and effects with the (compulsion) and (charm) descriptors, as well as the DC for an enemy to use the Intimidate skill to demoralize you.
It takes more than dragons and liches to chase you away from the fight! Or at least, all the way…
Prerequisites: Bravery class feature
Benefit: Whenever you fail a saving throw against a fear effect, or are successfully affected by the demoralize use of the intimidation skill, you may take a swift action on the following round to make a secondary save to negate the effects. The DC to remove the effects of a demoralize check is equal to the original intimidate check. You may add the bonus from your Bravery class feature to this additional save.
You’re willing to test the limits of your weapon far beyond what any normal warrior might try, proving that it’s not the quality of your steel that matters, but the strength of the arm that wields it.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Bravery class feature
Benefit: You gain a bonus to CMB and CMD to perform or resist a disarm attempt equal to the bonus granted by your Bravery class feature. This maneuver does not provoke an attack of opportunity if performed with a weapon that matches a type chosen for your Weapon Training class feature. Whenever you successfully disarm an opponent you always manage to bruise, nick, or otherwise inflict a little additional punishment on your enemy; any enemy you successfully disarm takes damage equal to the bonus granted by your Bravery class feature. This damage is of the same type as the weapon you performed the disarm attempt with (if unarmed or otherwise not wielding a weapon, this deals bludgeoning damage).
You’re willing to test the limits of your weapon far beyond what any normal warrior might try, proving that it’s not the quality of your steel that matters, but the strength of the arm that wields it.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, Bravery class feature
Benefit: You gain a bonus on feint attempts equal to the bonus granted by your Bravery class feature. In addition, 1/day you may use Bluff to feint in combat as a swift action. You may use this ability 1 additional time per day for each Bravery feat you know in addition to this one.
You’re willing to test the limits of your weapon far beyond what any normal warrior might try, proving that it’s not the quality of your steel that matters, but the strength of the arm that wields it.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1, Bravery class feature
Benefit: You gain a bonus on attempts to sunder an item currently wielded by an enemy equal to the bonus granted by your Bravery class feature. This maneuver does not provoke an attack of opportunity if performed with a weapon that matches a type chosen for your Weapon Training class feature. In addition, any weapon wielded by you adds a bonus equal to your Bravery class feature to its hardness. This benefit ends if the weapon leaves your possession.
Your willingness to throw yourself at an opponent with a certain disregard for your own safety often makes it easier to drop an unwary opponent to the ground.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Bravery class feature
Benefit: You gain a bonus to CMB and CMD to perform or resist a trip attempt equal to the bonus granted by your Bravery class feature. This bonus is doubled if the opponent you are attempting to trip, or who is attempting to trip you, is at least 2 size categories larger than yourself. This maneuver does not provoke an attack of opportunity if performed with a weapon that matches a type chosen for your Weapon Training class feature.
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Just to be clear, it's a Will save to remove the effects of a demoralize check, correct?Warrior’s Resolve [Bravery]
It takes more than dragons and liches to chase you away from the fight! Or at least, all the way…
Prerequisites: Bravery class feature
Benefit: Whenever you fail a saving throw against a fear effect, or are successfully affected by the demoralize use of the intimidation skill, you may take a swift action on the following round to make a secondary save to negate the effects. The DC to remove the effects of a demoralize check is equal to the original intimidate check. You may add the bonus from your Bravery class feature to this additional save.
That would be the intent, yes. I'm aware that there's a certain gap between what you can achieve with (Will + Bravery + d20) and (invested skill + d20), and I've been mulling over how to fix that so there's a reasonable chance of success at higher levels instead of just the hail mary.
I...cannot agree with this. I've seen feat-based fixes for Fighter over and over again and they're not a solid paradigm to start from. You're asking Fighter to spend his precious, irreplacable resources simply to get class features that other people get for free. That's not okay.
I am very very very interested in this although I do have some comments.
This helps out a fighter that does not have an archetype that replaces Bravery, would that necessitate a fighter feat that grants Bravery? Note this would be useful for classes that count as fighters for feats.
Should these be (Combat) feats to let Fighter take them as fighter feats?
I would like to say that I am interested in this. Would this possible supplement have 1 or more fighter archetypes that sacrifice some combat ability to get more skills like the Tactician fighter, while still keeping bravery to make use of these feats?
Also I do believe some of these feats should be labeled as combat feats. Mostly ones that modify combat maneuvers or grant defensive combat abilities.
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I am very very very interested in this although I do have some comments.
This helps out a fighter that does not have an archetype that replaces Bravery, would that necessitate a fighter feat that grants Bravery? Note this would be useful for classes that count as fighters for feats.
Should these be (Combat) feats to let Fighter take them as fighter feats?
Yeah, the goal would be that Bravery feats in general count as Combat feats for the purposes of qualifying as bonus feats.
I'm still considering whether creating a back door in to Bravery is a good idea...I...cannot agree with this. I've seen feat-based fixes for Fighter over and over again and they're not a solid paradigm to start from. You're asking Fighter to spend his precious, irreplacable resources simply to get class features that other people get for free. That's not okay.
I'm glad you brought that up.
So here's the thing. Fighter's bonus feats are their class features. The problem is, there are very few feats that are actually as strong as class features, and most of the ones that are, are buried under a pile of prereqs that often make certain archetypical Fighter abilities mutually exclusive under a standard point buy. Even if that weren't an issue, having to spend 3 class features to get one class feature is clearly poor business.
Paizo has made it clear that they won't release new materials that invalidate old materials, and the current Fighter isn't going anywhere. So what's the fix? We make better feats, ones that really are as good as class features and that help bring the Fighter back on par with the other martial classes by doing things like boosting his skill facility, increasing his narrative power, and giving him "shortcuts" to combat maneuvers that he might want to dabble in without having to go balls deep into a tree that may turn out to be less than useful for his campaign. Tying them to Bravery both means there's a scaling mechanic automatically built in, and that there's a control in place that helps prevent the increased power of the improved feats from creeping into the other classes. The Weaponmaster feats and feats like Bull by the Horns are designed to address that issue of poorly scaling CMB leaned against a heavy buy-in cost. They lower your buy in cost to one feat without actually invalidating the current feats (you could take either or both, with relatively little overlap), and they're built to address the big issues that underly the CMB/CMD disparity at high levels, namely size. A Fighter who took Bull by the Horns going toe to toe with a fire giant would have a +6 to his CMB. Combined with his +10 BAB and probably a +6 or so strength, that would mean that the Fighter has a 55% or better chance of grappling a foe substantially larger and more powerful than himself, tilting the CMB scale back in his favor.
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I...cannot agree with this. I've seen feat-based fixes for Fighter over and over again and they're not a solid paradigm to start from. You're asking Fighter to spend his precious, irreplacable resources simply to get class features that other people get for free. That's not okay.
How is getting a class feature X at level Y any different from getting a bonus feat at level Y that you spend to get the benefit of class feature X? They work out to be the same, except that the class with bonus feats has more flexibility in determining what their class can do.
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I...cannot agree with this. I've seen feat-based fixes for Fighter over and over again and they're not a solid paradigm to start from. You're asking Fighter to spend his precious, irreplacable resources simply to get class features that other people get for free. That's not okay.How is getting a class feature X at level Y any different from getting a bonus feat at level Y that you spend to get the benefit of class feature X? They work out to be the same, except that the class with bonus feats has more flexibility in determining what their class can do.
Precisely this. The [Bravery] feats are designed to be tailored to the Fighter specifically, but with scaling and power more in line with a true class feature.
If someone suggested that the Ranger's Hunter's Bond ability should be "get a CR 1 dog. This dog will never improve. Ever." people would be pissed. But somehow Weapon Focus is considered an equivalent value to an entire animal companion. Clearly that's not even.
So the easy solution is "create feats that are better". We then just have to make sure we respect the criteria I laid out in the OP and we end up with something pretty darn solid, IMHO.
I...cannot agree with this. I've seen feat-based fixes for Fighter over and over again and they're not a solid paradigm to start from. You're asking Fighter to spend his precious, irreplacable resources simply to get class features that other people get for free. That's not okay.
I like the general goal Ssalarn, but I'm kinda with PoK here.
I realise bonus feats ARE a class feature, but I'd prefer another approach rather than making the Fighter spend those precious feats.
How about just giving these as options at 1st, 2nd and every even level to replace Bravery? It essentially turns bravery into a suite. Don't tell me that would overturn the fighter, though it may not coalesce with your very well thought out design goal approach... It would make this more a fighter Alternate than a plug-in for existing fighters that keeping these as bravery feats achieves...
In response to spending feats for fighter fixes, what if some braveryor fighter feats were boosted or condensed versions of staple combat feats? In a sense fighters can use combat feats 'better' than other classes.
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In response to spending feats for fighter fixes, what if some braveryor fighter feats were boosted or condensed versions of staple combat feats? In a sense fighters can use combat feats 'better' than other classes.
It's an idea I've toyed with at home, but it has that "revisionist" effect; that is, I have to change core stuff or make a feat that's "core 2.0" to make it work. I'd rather approach this particular idea from the perspective of everything in the CRB continuing to work exactly as it currently does.
Basically, yes, there are other ways to improve the Fighter, but I'd prefer that this particular idea focuses on using a method that you could actually see in an official Paizo supplement. The goal in my head is "if Paizo were to create Ultimate Combat 2, what kind of things would I expect and hope to see?". That would require following the criteria they've kind of laid out and working within the system. I like the idea of hanging it on Bravery because Bravery is frankly terrible, and transforming it from probably the single worst class feature in the game into a strong core for Fighter options appeals to my sensibilities.
I like the idea of this, but as long as it's third party and not official a lot of already existing fighter fixes already exist as competition. Such as here. Here is more talents too
If you could somehow get Paizo to publish these feats it would be amazing though!
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I like the idea of this, but as long as it's third party and not official a lot of already existing fighter fixes already exist as competition. Such as here. Here is more talents too
If you could somehow get Paizo to publish these feats it would be amazing though!
I have a game plan.
Step one is establishing demand.
Step two is getting a finished product in front of the right 3pp company so these can make the rounds.
Step 3... Step 3 involves PaizoCon and finding out what the favorite foodstuffs of various members of the Paizo staff are so I can arrange access to their product schedule and conveniently stuff copies into the main work folders of every product that looks like it might be even a little related. I don't know if that involves physical folders or electronic ones, but by Thor I'll stuff it in there!
Worse comes to worst, Mr. Mona and I might have a conversation about what it'll take to keep this hour long video of him interviewing at PAX with his fly down from hitting the internet....
Huh, step 3 got even weirder than I intended it to.
I like the concept, like wizards with their arcane discoveries.
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I cleaned up a few of the feats, added a few more, and changed the names on the "Weaponmaster" line of feats so that each feat is more unique.
Your voice rings out the clarion call of battle, fortifying the hearts and minds of those who follow you.
Prerequisites: Int 13 or Cha 13, Bravery class feature
Benefit: As a swift action, you may grant all allies who can hear your voice the benefits of your Bravery class feature for a number of rounds equal to 1 + your Intelligence or Charisma modifier, whichever is greater. If you have any feats that modify your Bravery class feature, such as the Stubborn Bravery feat, you share those benefits as well. You may use this ability 1/day plus one additional time per day for each Bravery feat you know in addition to this one.
It’s like Red Rover… Only awesome.
Prerequisites: Str 15, Bravery class feature
Benefit: You gain a bonus to CMB to perform an overrun equal to the bonus granted by your Bravery class feature. If your overrun is successful and the target does not choose to avoid you, you deal damage to the target equal to your Strength modifier plus the bonus granted by your Bravery class feature. This damage is in addition to any damage you deal from other abilities, like trample. In addition, each time your Bravery bonus improves (+2, +3, etc.) the maximum size creature you can attempt to overrun increases by 1 size category, though you must have enough movement available to pass through each occupied square in your path of movement or the attempt automatically fails.
When you first heard the phrase “it’s best to just take the bull by the horns” you took it literally.
Prerequisites: Str 15, Bravery class feature
Benefit: You gain a bonus to CMB and CMD to perform or resist a grapple attempt, and to your AC against attacks of opportunity provoked while initiating a grapple, equal to the bonus granted by your Bravery class feature. This bonus is doubled if the grappling opponent is at least 2 size categories larger than yourself.
You don’t just know how to hit things, you know where to hit them.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Bravery class feature
Benefit: You gain a competence bonus on Knowledge (dungeoneering) and Knowledge (engineering) checks equal to the bonus granted by your Bravery class feature. This bonus also applies to damage rolls you make against a creature you have successfully identified with Knowledge (dungeoneering), and to damage dealt to take advantage of a structure’s weakness you’ve identified with Knowledge (engineering) (For example, if you attempted to hack through a support post on a rickety bridge, you add a bonus to the sunder damage equal to your Bravery bonus).
Not even the roaring belch of a black powder weapon gives you pause.
Prerequisites: Bravery class feature
Benefit: You gain a dodge bonus to armor class equal to your Bravery bonus against all firearm attacks that target touch AC. In addition, as long as you are wearing medium or heavy, when a firearm attack would successfully deal damage to you, you may spend an immediate action to make an attack roll using your base attack bonus + your Dexterity modifier + your Bravery class feature bonus. If the total result of this roll is equal to or greater than the attack that would have hit you, you instead deflect the attack and take no damage. You may use this secondary ability 1/ day plus 1 additional time per day for each Bravery feat you know in addition to this one.
You’re willing to test the limits of your weapon far beyond what any normal warrior might try, proving that it’s not the quality of your steel that matters, but the strength of the arm that wields it.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1, Bravery class feature
Benefit: You gain a bonus on attempts to sunder an item currently wielded by an enemy equal to the bonus granted by your Bravery class feature. This maneuver does not provoke an attack of opportunity if performed with a weapon that matches a type chosen for your Weapon Training class feature. In addition, any weapon wielded by you adds a bonus equal to your Bravery class feature to its hardness. This benefit ends if the weapon leaves your possession.
Your fearless disposition leads you to push the line when it comes to safety, running through hell’s own fires if that’s what the situation demands.
Prerequisites: Bravery class feature
Benefit: You gain a bonus on Reflex saves against spells and abilities that target an area of effect, such as a fireball spell, equal to the bonus granted by your Bravery class feature. In addition, you gain a +2 competence bonus on Acrobatics checks made to move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity.
Your fearsome reputation goes before you, making it easier for you to exert authority and command respect.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 3, Bravery class feature, Charisma 11+
Benefit: You may pick a region where you are well known; this region must be a settlement or settlements with a total population of 1,000 or fewer people, and you gain a competence bonus equal to twice the bonus granted by your Bravery class feature on Diplomacy and Intimidate checks to influence people in that area. As your reputation grows, additional areas learn of you and your bonuses apply to even more people. These new areas must be in or adjacent to an area where you performed some heroic deed, such as defeating bandits, slaying a dragon, or some other act of note. At 6th level, the region may be a settlement or settlements with a total population of 5,000 or fewer people. At 10th level, the region may be a settlement or settlements with a total population of up to 25,000 people. At 14th level, the region may be a settlement or settlements with a total population of up to 100,000 people. At 18th level and above, your renown has spread far, and most civilized folk know of you (GM's discretion).
You’ve climbed mountains, swam rivers, and then fought all day at the end of it.
Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +3, Bravery class feature
Benefit: You gain a bonus on climb and swim checks equal to the bonus granted by your Bravery class feature. This bonus is doubled if you are you making the check as part of an attempt to catch a falling character while climbing or when making a swim check to avoid nonlethal damage from fatigue.
Your powerful physique and unstoppable ferocity allows you toss lesser foes around with contemptuous ease.
Prerequisites: Str 15, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, base attack bonus +3, Bravery class feature
Benefit: You gain a bonus on bull rush attempts equal to the bonus granted by your Bravery class feature. Each time your Bravery bonus increases (+2, +3, etc.) the maximum size creature you can perform a bull rush against increases by one size category. In addition, you may perform a bull rush maneuver against two opponents simultaneously; make one bull rush attempt and compare it to both opponent’s CMD. If the bull rush fails against either opponent, it automatically fails against the other. The opponents must be within 5 feet of each other and you must be able to reach both opponents.
You’re willing to test the limits of your weapon far beyond what any normal warrior might try, proving that it’s not the quality of your steel that matters, but the strength of the arm that wields it.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Bravery class feature
Benefit: You gain a bonus to CMB and CMD to perform or resist a disarm attempt equal to the bonus granted by your Bravery class feature. This maneuver does not provoke an attack of opportunity if performed with a weapon that matches a type chosen for your Weapon Training class feature. Whenever you successfully disarm an opponent you always manage to bruise, nick, or otherwise inflict a little additional punishment on your enemy; any enemy you successfully disarm takes damage equal to the bonus granted by your Bravery class feature. This damage is of the same type as the weapon you performed the disarm attempt with (if unarmed or otherwise not wielding a weapon, this deals bludgeoning damage).
By spending time in careful study and contemplation, you may achieve mastery with any weapon.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 9, Bravery class feature, Weapon Training 2 class feature
Benefit: By spending one hour testing the weight and balance of a specific weapon, you are able to form a bond with the chosen weapon and may apply the benefits of your weapon training class feature as though the weapon were of the type you selected for the weapon training 2 class feature. This applies only to the selected weapon and does not extend to other weapons of that type. You may apply this benefit to a new weapon by spending another hour in practice, but cannot have more than one specific weapon benefiting from this ability at a time. In addition, you gain a competence bonus to CMD against disarm and sunder attempts equal to the bonus granted by your bravery class feature when wielding a weapon that benefits from your weapon training class feature.
When someone tries to tell you what to do, your instinct is to do the opposite.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 3, Bravery class feature
Benefit: The bonus to Will saves granted by your Bravery class feature applies to spells and effects with the (compulsion) and (charm) descriptors, as well as the DC for an enemy to use the Intimidate skill to demoralize you.
Your willingness to throw yourself at an opponent with a certain disregard for your own safety often makes it easier to drop an unwary opponent to the ground.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Bravery class feature
Benefit: You gain a bonus to CMB and CMD to perform or resist a trip attempt equal to the bonus granted by your Bravery class feature. This bonus is doubled if the opponent you are attempting to trip, or who is attempting to trip you, is at least 2 size categories larger than yourself. This maneuver does not provoke an attack of opportunity if performed with a weapon that matches a type chosen for your Weapon Training class feature.
It takes more than dragons and liches to chase you away from the fight! Or at least, all the way…
Prerequisites: Bravery class feature
Benefit: Whenever you fail a saving throw against a fear effect, you may take a swift action on the following round to make a secondary save to negate the effects, adding your Bravery bonus to the save. In addition, any opponent attempting to demoralize you with the intimidate skill must roll twice and take the lower result.
You’re willing to test the limits of your weapon far beyond what any normal warrior might try, proving that it’s not the quality of your steel that matters, but the strength of the arm that wields it.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, Bravery class feature
Benefit: You gain a bonus on feint attempts equal to the bonus granted by your Bravery class feature. In addition, 1/day you may use Bluff to feint in combat as a swift action. You may use this ability 1 additional time per day for each Bravery feat you know in addition to this one.
What I'm wondering (and this is primarily pointed at the people who agree with the above points), is if you'd be interested in a supplement that included a collection of Fighter feats specifically intended to address the above concerns while following these general principals:
"Principles".
With that out of the way, I have a few comments. They are going to sound very negative, so I suggest reading them to yourself in the voice of a trusted friend, and remembering that, at the end of the day, my total sales of RPG material I've written is zero dollars.
* Cannot invalidate existing core materials.
That depends on what you mean by "invalidate". You can write new choice without contradicting core materials. But you going to have to invalidate core materials, as valid choices, for all of this to mean anything.
* Cannot create power creep by boosting other classes as much/more than the Fighter.
Several classes can take Fighter-exclusive feats. I don't know how you're going to accomplish this goal. Every choice of a core Fighter class feature you enter as a prerequisite is going to hedge out a lot of archetypes.
* Should grant the Fighter skill bonuses that scale beyond the benefits he can get from simply taking Skill Focus without actually replacing or eclipsing Skill Focus as an option.
99% of the time, skill focus is just a Feat Tax for a more interesting feat. Also, your design goal is "being better, without being, you know...better".
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"Principles".
I caught that I'd used the wrong "principal" after the post locked.... One hour windows can be frustrating sometimes.
When I say "cannot invalidate core materials" what I mean is, if I have a core feat that is "-1 to attack for +2 to damage" I'm not going to do a feat that's the exact same thing only with a higher damage bonus and a lower penalty.
Few of the classes that get Fighter specific feats have really open access. The Samurai, for example, can only choose them if they're tied to a very specific weapon. Of those who get access to the feats, I'm not aware of any of them also gaining the Bravery class feature, which is the core of this feat line.
Skill Focus, for those who want it, is still going to be a valid option. A character who chooses Combat Engineer, for example, would still have a reason to take Skill Focus (Knowledge:Engineering), and there would be circumstances and levels where that feat would be superior, though over the life of the game Combat Engineer will end up being the more valuable investment.
I think if you compare the stated goals to the example feats listed, you'll get a sense of how I'm accomplishing them and staying consistent with the stated principles.
When I say "cannot invalidate core materials" what I mean is, if I have a core feat that is "-1 to attack for +2 to damage" I'm not going to do a feat that's the exact same thing only with a higher damage bonus and a lower penalty.
Well, Power Attack is as core as it gets. If you consider f.ex. Ultimate Combat to be core, you're going to have a problem. Let me suggest a feat to illustrate:
BIG BOY POTTY NOW! [Combat]
Effect: You can wipe your own ass without getting poop on your face. You also never poop your pants, unless you're really, really scared (or drunk).
Right there, that feat is better than Deadly Finish and Death or Glory.
Few of the classes that get Fighter specific feats have really open access. The Samurai, for example, can only choose them if they're tied to a very specific weapon.
...being tied to a specific weapon is really not much of a drawback. This should not be argued by someone who claims to understand the game
Of those who get access to the feats, I'm not aware of any of them also gaining the Bravery class feature, which is the core of this feat line.
This, however, is bullet-proof. But by tying these feats to Bravery, you're implicitly promising the reader that your feats will be good enough to make up for not being able to play a Lore Warden, Phalanx Fighter. polearm Master, Unarmed or Unbreakable...2/3rds of the Fighter archetypes give up Bravery, and those that don't are....not the cream of the crop (except Trench fighter).
Old Soldier [Bravery]
You’ve climbed mountains, swam rivers, and then fought all day at the end of it.
Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +3, Bravery class feature
Benefit: You gain a bonus on climb and swim checks equal to the bonus granted by your Bravery class feature. This bonus is doubled if you are you making the check as part of an attempt to catch a falling character while climbing or when making a swim check to avoid nonlethal damage from fatigue.
It took me all of 15 seconds to look up the relevant numbers and see that this feat is strictly inferior to Athletic - itself a strong contender for worst feat in the CRB - until level 6, where even skill rank investment in Climb and Swim are looking really stupid, much less an actual Feat.
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Few of the classes that get Fighter specific feats have really open access. The Samurai, for example, can only choose them if they're tied to a very specific weapon....being tied to a specific weapon is really not much of a drawback. This should not be argued by someone who claims to understand the game
It matters if the feats aren't aimed at a specific weapon. Being able to count as a Fighter for the purposes of taking feats that apply to katanas doesn't do anything if the feat doesn't care whether or not you're wielding a katana. I could remove the Bravery requirement from every feat listed and replace the BAB with a Fighter level requirement and the Samurai would not be able to take them because they have nothing to do with katanas, longbows, wakizashis, or naginatas. So yes, only counting as a Fighter for feats to tied to a specific weapon is certainly a drawback if you're looking at feats that are not weapon specific.
By the way, this came off as you sounding like a douche, so maybe avoid bolding sentences that sound like you're implicitly indicating someone doesn't know what they're talking about if you're trying to be helpful.Your Athletics example was also unnecessary. I specifically stated "Skill Focus, for those who want it, is still going to be a valid option. A character who chooses Combat Engineer, for example, would still have a reason to take Skill Focus (Knowledge:Engineering), and there would be circumstances and levels where that feat would be superior, though over the life of the game Combat Engineer will end up being the more valuable investment." You can replace "Skill Focus" with "Athletics" and you get the same principle.
I know that you've stated you're trying to be helpful, but you are coming off as confrontational, accusatory, and disrespectful. Please modulate your tone and focus on making your points in a constructive manner.
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Made the following change to Old Soldier in response to its comparatively lackluster performance, given that Climb and Swim tend to taper in usefulness more quickly than other skills:
You’ve climbed mountains, swam rivers, and then fought all day at the end of it.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Bravery class feature
Benefit: You gain a bonus on climb and swim checks equal to the bonus granted by your Bravery class feature, +1 for each Bravery feat you know, including this one. This bonus is doubled if you are making the check as part of an attempt to catch a falling character while climbing or when making a swim check to avoid nonlethal damage from fatigue.
So Battlefield Commander allows the sharing of Stubborn Bravery. When you say "If you have any feats that modify your Bravery class feature, such as the Stubborn Bravery feat, you share those benefits as well." To what extent do you mean?
For instance, would Old Soldier, Daring Bravery, or Break the Line be shared?
Also, if a 10th level fighter uses Battlefield Commander on an 8th level fighter (someone's cohort?), would the 8th level fighter use the Bravery +3 for his own Bravery feats?
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So Battlefield Commander allows the sharing of Stubborn Bravery. When you say "If you have any feats that modify your Bravery class feature, such as the Stubborn Bravery feat, you share those benefits as well." To what extent do you mean?
For instance, would Old Soldier, Daring Bravery, or Break the Line be shared?
Also, if a 10th level fighter uses Battlefield Commander on an 8th level fighter (someone's cohort?), would the 8th level fighter use the Bravery +3 for his own Bravery feats?
These are excellent questions.
Yes, a Fighter should be able to use Battlefield Commander to share the benefits of abilities like Old Soldier with his allies. What I should probably do is add a [Teamwork] or [Command] tag to feats that should be available for sharing and then update the verbage in Battlefield Commander.
An actual supplement would elaborate on the [Bravery]descriptor a bit, and part of that elaboration would include clarification that the Bravery class feature is the original "source" of the bonus, so Fighter A's Bravery bonuses would overlap, not stack, with Fighter B's. If you wanted to have two Fighters using Battlefield Commander it'd probably be best to have them focus on different feats. It's still hypothetical at the moment though, so definitely worth beating on and seeing where things need to be tweaked.
I know that you've stated you're trying to be helpful, but you are coming off as confrontational, accusatory, and disrespectful. Please modulate your tone and focus on making your points in a constructive manner.
I was trying to be helpful in my first post. Then you showed me your vision of how the game works, and....let's just agree never to collaborate.
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Only if they modify the benefits of Bravery itself, I think. Old Soldier (and some of the others) use your Bravery bonus to determine their effectiveness, but they don't modify or add to the Bravery ability itself.
That was my original plan as well, but after reading Adam's question I thought "Why not?"
Going through and changing the verbage of some of the feats so that they just use the Bravery bonus instead of creating a bonus "equal to" would be one way of delineating what BC does and does not share, but as we're talking about it I'd really like to avoid something like the debate that was raging over what the definition of "source" is and whether or not two feats that add something like your Dex bonus stack, how you'd determine that, etc.
Again, everything's hypothetical and there are no "hard" answers now, I literally just changed my mind about how they should probably work based on Adam's question. 5 minutes ago your answer was completely correct, and still is based on the current verbage.
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I was trying to be helpful in my first post. Then you showed me your vision of how the game works, and....let's just agree never to collaborate.
I know that you've stated you're trying to be helpful, but you are coming off as confrontational, accusatory, and disrespectful. Please modulate your tone and focus on making your points in a constructive manner.
When I started talking about the possibility of doing a project like this, my very first goal was "do something Paizo would publish".
I've already made contributions to the Path of War project by DSP, and am actively designing the Akashic Mysteries project which includes an archetype that grafts magic power onto the Fighter and helps modify his dynamic, and have created the "intelligent Fighter replacement" class the Iron Lord for Amora Games' upcoming Libris Influxis, but that's not the goal here. I don't want to make Fighter 2.0, I want to give Paizo's Fighter 1.5 the same amount of tools as his peers.
The goal is to use the existing framework of the Fighter to provide solutions that address the most common complaints (poor skills, poor saves, poor return on investment for class features), and help the Fighter live up to his class description as a warrior who can "tame kingdoms, slaughter monsters, and rouse the hearts of armies". I'm not trying to address martial/caster disparity, there's other projects for that. I just want to help the Fighter close the gap between himself and the other martial classes, who are often as good or nearly as good as the Fighter in combat while simultaneously being good in other fields as well.
So I want to stretch the Fighter's skills, I want his bonuses to scale and remain relevant, I want him to live up to his stated role as a battlefield commander and leader of men, and I want to do it in a way that is balanced and considerate of core material, something you could actually see in a Paizo product.
Had you offered constructive criticism instead of fishing out the weakest feat in the selection and then being crude and insulting, you'd have found that yes, I agree that Old Soldier was too weak for the stated goals and needed to be shored up, which I did. I wouldn't walk up to a house that just laid the foundation, announce "There's no roof, so clearly the architect is a moron" and then take a dump on the lawn before walking away, and I would expect someone taking the time to participate in a conversation to avoid the electronic version thereof.
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Actually, to draw from my an earlier statement, what if these weren't feats at all, but opt in alternative class options like the wizards arcane discoveries. Then i think you can move away from the need to balance against feats.
Wizard discoveries are feats though. Even if the rules don't acknowledge them as feats, they can be taken in place of feats and can be taken in place of bonus feats.
Besides, if the goal is to make this like something Paizo would publish, then feats are more acceptable than asking them to make a new section in a book, and to keep making that new section in any future book that wants to use "Fighter Discoveries."
An idea from another third party product, in line with the "fighter discoveries" idea; what about fighter exclusive feats that does nothing on its own but give abilities based on the number of combat feats the fighter has within a 'style'
One question I have is if the mission is to boost all fighters or just core vanilla fighter?
I strongly suspect the answer is All Fighters. There are a few archetypes that 'improve' the class, but in general those don't go nearly far enough relative to the opportunity cost.
If the goal is all fighters, I'd suspect that Armor Training and Weapon training feats would be a good point to base the feats around. Most fighter archetypes have at least one of these two abilities. I wish less archetypes gave up Bravery, because bravery feels like it could be very easily plugged into the "brave hero" theme, which SSalarn has capitalized on.
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I like this idea. And would probably buy it. I would also like to see a backdoor in to bravery but requires say fighter lvl four and does say fighter lvl minus 4 or whatever. So that way these classes that get count as fighter half your lvl take a four point penalty on top of it which should keep them from being able to just run with this stuff. Also it would mean that since you gave up bravery for something hopefully awesome your not going to be quite as good with this stuff as a pure fighter. Ie bravery bonuses are one lower.
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I strongly suspect the answer is All Fighters. There are a few archetypes that 'improve' the class, but in general those don't go nearly far enough relative to the opportunity cost.If the goal is all fighters, I'd suspect that Armor Training and Weapon training feats would be a good point to base the feats around. Most fighter archetypes have at least one of these two abilities. I wish less archetypes gave up Bravery, because bravery feels like it could be very easily plugged into the "brave hero" theme, which SSalarn has capitalized on.
I can see the reasoning there. But I like you like the theme of bravery for charisma better than "I'm good in armor so I can climb better.." Plus if you tied to those abilities then the feats arent useful as quickly. Note I would like to see feats that cover those angles also...
Now then just a side note.
Courage under fire. I feel like it should also add in your armor training bonus to the touch A.C. and the roll. Demonstrating that you know how to angle yourself to give the best advantage to your armor.
The Bravery theme is definitely the strongest theme a fighter can have with his class abilities. I was just saying that I don't think the entire supplement would need to be Bravery feats. Some feats requiring armor and weapon training could be included, so that even fighters that do not have bravery can play with some of the toys provided in the supplement.
Just a note, Abandoned Art's Class Acts: Fighter feats, had a feat which granted the Bravery Bonus to initiative. It's been a huge hit at my tables so a back door for archetypes that have to give up Bravery would be nice in more than one way.
Is there any concern over this benefiting more than the fighter? The Magus at the very least qualifies as a Fighter of half his level for feats. Off the top of my head I cant think of any other classes that do this but I know a number of third party classes that do the same thing.
Another thought; this trend seems weird and unimportant because when I really think about it there aren't very many fighter only feats. Or rather there aren't many feats where 'fighter' is a prerequisite.
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Thanks for all the insights and ideas guys! I'll look at creating a Fighter specific feat for "back door" access to Bravery and some feats that play up the weapon and armor training features more.
The thing is - you don't need to tie fighter specific feats to bravery - unless bravery is theme you are running with here.
There are several Fighter only feats tied to Fighter levels
Weapon Spec: 4th level Fighter
Greater Weapon Focus: 8th level Fighter
Greater Weapon Spec: 12th level Fighter
Penetrating Strike: 12th level Fighter
Greater Penetrating Strike: 16th level Fighter
In other words you don't need to tie these to bravery unless you want to. A precedent has already been set with "Fighter Only" and at "X level".
Some of these are ok (read them in the other thread), but I would much rather see feats that actually address in-game power disparity and usefullness of the Fighter.
These are things that the Fighter class needs to be able to address short of casting spells. They should have a list of build options that are counters to spell casting or deal with problems created by spells/magic (Walls, mind control, etc) in the game world that work and can be played in a thematic fashion (one sword strike and the wall comes down vs. doing X hp damge). It doesn't have to be Wuxia/Bo9S and it doesn't have to be to hit/damage paradigm. Fighters can easily have counters or generate abilities that require DC saves to deal with threats they face every day.
Anyway
Edit: BTW I like Daring and Stubborn Bravery.
I also like Warriors Resolve but I think it should be extended to include mind control/domination.
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The Magus was one of my big reasons for tying things in to Bravery, since he has so many moving parts it can be hard to determine how much or how powerfully Fighter specific feats designed to be stronger than normal feats might affect him. It's actually a little annoying since the only Fighter class feature the Magus doesn't have access to when you take archetypes into account is Bravery, so anything I tie to Weapon or Armor Training or Mastery without the Bravery prereq is potentially available to him, as is any potential back door to Bravery I create.
Sometimes it feels like the world is actively trying to undermine the Fighter...
Samurai was less of a concern since his feats have to be weapon specific, so if I avoid doing the "Pick a weapon" type of feats that's a non-issue, but I can still leave the door open for style feats that benefit particular Weapon Training groups.
They should have a list of build options that are counters to spell casting or deal with problems created by spells/magic (Walls, mind control, etc) in the game world that work and can be played in a thematic fashion (one sword strike and the wall comes down vs. doing X hp damge). It doesn't have to be Wuxia/Bo9S and it doesn't have to be to hit/damage paradigm. Fighters can easily have counters or generate abilities that require DC saves to deal with threats they face every day.
It's funny that you brought that up, because that is exactly what I'm working on for this project right now, Fighter feats that provide non-magical options for dealing with magical effects and obstacles. The only issue is making sure that the effects are broad enough that they're worth the resource being spent on them. Basically, the feat needs to be at least as good as Spell Sunder, and fitting a broad enough range of effects into a single ability while maintaining thematic appropriateness and avoiding the ToB feel requires a little extra work.
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That was why I said make the backdoor say as a fighter of your lvl -x.
I'm just working on making sure that the way that interacts with other effects that allow you access as Fighter of your level -X are accounted for, and we don't end up with a 10th level Magus who counts as a 5th level Fighter counting as a 7th level Fighter by taking the feat and generating bonus virtual Fighter levels. Or at least making sure that if that does happen it's not going to create any balance issues (this may be the only situation imaginable where I would worry about Bravery and balance with Bravery on the powerful side of the equation).
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Ah. I was looking more at a 10th lvl Magus who counts as a 5th taking it and counting as a 2nd or something. So the best he could ever get is 7th. But yeah if he can pop virtual levels from somewhere else that would be a problem.
Yeah, the problem is if I have a feat that says "Prerequisite: Fighter level 5
Benefit: You gain the Bravery class feature as a Fighter of your level -3" I've actually given the Magus a higher effective Fighter level for Bravery feats. I'm going to do it, I just need to be very specific about the wording and how it all comes together.|
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Ah. How about "you gain bravery as fighter of your effective fighter lvl -3" so magus would be stuck with what they used to get the feat -3 and a fighter would be lvl -3 since effective fighter lvl and real fighter levels would be the same thing yes?
As an aside I have never done this sort of thing before but I find the thinking involved fun. And I am learning a bit from you. Thanks for the opportunity to have this discourse. Also hope I'm not driving you nuts with the questions.
again, to beat a old drum, the arcane discovery route gives two major benefits.
1.100% truly fighter exclusive.
2.no bravery prerequisite required.
this means that the magus with a level of fighter
also all but one arcane discovery has a prerequisite outside of wizard levels, which puts them leagues above feats in their own right.