Do undeath templates ever remove the "giant" subtype?

[Tinalles]

I have a dwarf ranger 9/fighter 1. He's got the following:

- Favored Enemy (Undead) at +2
- Favored Enemy (Giants) at +4
- Defensive Training (racial +4 dodge bonus to AC vs giants)

Last session we encountered an undead giant, and were uncertain which bonuses applied.

Adventure path spoilers:

It was an undead cyclops in Kingmaker.

Which favored enemy bonus do I use? Does it depend on the exact template that was used to make the critter? Do some undead templates remove subtypes like "giant" and others not? If it changes its primary type to undead, but retains the giant subtype, do I just pick the better of the two favored enemy bonuses?

Also, do I get the +4 dodge bonus to AC from the Defensive Training? Because that would be nice, these guys hit hard.

[Globetrotter]

Yes, the giant subtype is removed (although they still retain their size)

Giant Subtype: A giant is a humanoid creature of great strength, usually of at least Large size. Giants have a number of racial Hit Dice and never substitute such Hit Dice for class levels like some humanoids. Giants have low-light vision, and treat Intimidate and Perception as class skills.

Undead are no longer humanoid, which is what the giant subtype requires.

[Kazaan]

If it's a template that has changed the giant to Undead, it will typically take on the Augmented subtype so it will end up going from Humanoid(Giant) to Undead(Augmented Giant) to retain race-based features. So you'd probably still be able to treat it as a Giant unless the undead template being applied to it doesn't include the Augmented subtype.

[Sniggevert]

No, Globetrotter has it right.

There's even a FAQ that's right on target for this inquiry.

[Tinalles]

Great, that answers it pretty definitively. I get the +2 from Favored Enemy (Undead), and nothing else.

Thanks!

[Kazaan]

Ok, my mistake. Augmented applies to the type rather than subtype. so a Giant turned Vampire would be an Undead (Augmented Humanoid), not augmented giant. So it's not quite like a Giant enough for those old tricks to work properly anymore.

[voideternal]

Let me ask another question to clarify my understanding of templates that augment the original type. Below is my understanding of how this works:
There is a PC Ranger with Favored enemy Humanoid(human) and Magical Beast. He fights two different Vampires and one Juju Zombie.
The Ranger's favored enemies are Humanoid(Human) +4 and Magical Beast +2.
The three undead are:
Human Vampire Sorcerer 8 - Type Undead(Augmented Humanoid)
Behir Vampire - Type Undead(Augmented Magical Beast)
Human Juju Zombie Rogue 2 - Type Undead(Augmented Human)

The Ranger would get no bonus on the Human Vampire, because the (Human) subtype is lost.
The Ranger would get +2 bonus on the Behir Vampire, because the creature still has 'Magical Beast' in it's Type / Subtype.
The Ranger would get +4 bonus on the Human Juju Zombie, because the (Human) subtype is kept from juju-zombie type wording.

Is this correct?

[Dave Justus]

Behir Vampire has type Undead subtype Augmented Magical Beast. Your favored enemy Magical Beast (any) doesn't apply because Undead (aug magical beast) is not a magical beast. It is an undead. While it has a subtype of magical beast, that doesn't matter since you first check the type, and only if that matches do you check the subtype if necessary.

The same problem would apply with the Juju Zombie. In addition, Juju zombies keep subtypes except for alignment and those that indicate kind, such as human, so a Juju zombie does not have a human subtype.

[voideternal]

Okay. Then I'm assuming the text on the example Human juju zombie rogue 2 is an error? It says NE Medium undead (augmented human).

[Dave Justus]

Unless I am misunderstanding what "subtypes that indicate kind" means to Piazo, it should be undead (augmented humanoid.) A red dragon juju zombie would be undead (augmented dragon, fire) as an example of when you would keep a subtype.