Hi all,
Some people have suggested building in the magical item bonuses people tend to get into level advancement to offset the effects of a low-magic world. What exactly would that look like?
Could you do something as simple as every 3rd level characters receive a +1 hit/damage, +1 AC, +1 on all saves, and +2 to one stat? Call this a hero bonus or something, so that it stacks with everything?
Then tone down the monsters that would be too powerful in situations without much magic (such a DR 10/magic.)
Would that work, or is there something else better to represent the expected bonuses characters are supposed to have?
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I use monsters that need magic to hurt sparingly and they become truely scary. I give much less gold but chances to earn character upgrades that simulate the bonuses from some items (natural armor and save bonuses for instance) and over time the majority of the party will have a magic weapon and or armor that they upgrade for quest rewards instead of trading them in at mage o mart
Hi all,
Some people have suggested building in the magical item bonuses people tend to get into level advancement to offset the effects of a low-magic world. What exactly would that look like?
Could you do something as simple as every 3rd level characters receive a +1 hit/damage, +1 AC, +1 on all saves, and +2 to one stat? Call this a hero bonus or something, so that it stacks with everything?
...
You can, but I don't see it as necessary.
If you give Wizard PC a +2 to his spell DC and give Fighter NPC a +2 to his saves, the net change is pretty much zero.
If you give Fighter PC a +1 to hit and damage and Sorcerer NPC a +1 to his AC and a +2 to his Con score, the net change is very nearly nil.
The only place it makes a difference is in monsters where you aren't adjusting their stats, bonuses, and abilities. So just don't use as powerful of monsters. That is really the only change that I have found to be necessary.
Ok, a couple other things. A few PC classes like summoner or druid that rely on their monsters for much of their combat power suddenly become too powerful. So I wouldn't allow the summoner and need to decrease the power of the summon X spells. There also needs to be an in-game reason why the wizard doesn't suddenly start cranking out magic items and make the party into lords of creation.
If you give Wizard PC a +2 to his spell DC and give Fighter NPC a +2 to his saves, the net change is pretty much zero.
If you give Fighter PC a +1 to hit and damage and Sorcerer NPC a +1 to his AC and a +2 to his Con score, the net change is very nearly nil.
My first thought is that this bonus would only go to PCs, perhaps to certain elite NPCs as well, but definitely not everyone.
The only place it makes a difference is in monsters where you aren't adjusting their stats, bonuses, and abilities. So just don't use as powerful of monsters. That is really the only change that I have found to be necessary.
Adjusting monster stats downwards would definitely be another way to go. The only issue I foresee is certain players have become accustomed to certain numbers. For example, an AC of 20 at level 1 is really good. If I reduced all enemies attack modifiers by 2, then an AC 18 would be the same as an AC 20 before the adjustment. But to the player, the AC 18 still seems lower than the AC 20. Its silly but definitely something I've noticed.
There also needs to be an in-game reason why the wizard doesn't suddenly start cranking out magic items and make the party into lords of creation.
Yes - craft feats will be unavailable. This is for an ancient world campaign, even iron/steel weapons will be unavailable.
Here you go...
I'm using this system now, and about 1/2 of wealth by level is built into the characters themselves.
Magic items are greatly reduced, and now generally replicate spells, either once, like a potion of CLW, or 3/day, like Boots of Teleportation.
Most of my players like it, the new guy hates it, because he's the type to carefully spend each coin.
My first thought is that this bonus would only go to PCs, perhaps to certain elite NPCs as well, but definitely not everyone...If you give Wizard PC a +2 to his spell DC and give Fighter NPC a +2 to his saves, the net change is pretty much zero.
If you give Fighter PC a +1 to hit and damage and Sorcerer NPC a +1 to his AC and a +2 to his Con score, the net change is very nearly nil.
Hmm... Well it would work. But it would skyrocket the PC's above everyone else in power within a few levels.
High magic or Low magic campaigns, I use basically the same rules for PC's or NPC's.
NPC's (other than elite, royalty, etc...) will use 5 to 10 points fewer on their point buy.
NPC's are generally quite a bit poorer than PC's. So if a magic sword now costs 10k minimum, only the very richest NPC's will have one until very high levels.
NPC's are generally not nearly as optimized as PC's OR super hyper optimized for only one thing. Ex: Every feat and all the gear this warrior has is for grappling since he is a professional wrestler.
...The only issue I foresee is certain players have become accustomed to certain numbers. For example, an AC of 20 at level 1 is really good. If I reduced all enemies attack modifiers by 2, then an AC 18 would be the same as an AC 20 before the adjustment. But to the player, the AC 18 still seems lower than the AC 20. Its silly but definitely something I've noticed...
Very true. Some players just can't get past that absolute number value. You can tell them all day long that their damage is double everyone else in the world, but they can't get over the number they had in some other campaign world. I generally find those guys won't like my low magic world anyway.
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Hi all,
Some people have suggested building in the magical item bonuses people tend to get into level advancement to offset the effects of a low-magic world. What exactly would that look like?
Could you do something as simple as every 3rd level characters receive a +1 hit/damage, +1 AC, +1 on all saves, and +2 to one stat? Call this a hero bonus or something, so that it stacks with everything?
Then tone down the monsters that would be too powerful in situations without much magic (such a DR 10/magic.)
Would that work, or is there something else better to represent the expected bonuses characters are supposed to have?
I think you probably want a more even power curve than that. Something closer to this might serve better:
1st - Toughness
2nd
3rd - +1 attack & damage or +1 AC & +1 Saves
4th - +1 to two different attributes
5th - +1 Spell DC or bonus feat
6th - +1 attack & damage or +1 AC & +1 Saves
7th - choice of Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes or Great Fortitude
8th - +1 to two different attributes
9th - +1 attack & damage or +1 AC & +1 Saves
10th - +1 Spell DC or bonus feat
11th
12th - +1 attack & damage or +1 AC & +1 Saves; +1 to two different attributes
13th - choice of Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes or Great Fortitude
14th
15th - +1 attack & damage or +1 AC & +1 Saves; +1 Spell DC or bonus feat
16th - +1 to two different attributes
17th
18th - +1 attack & damage or +1 AC & +1 Saves
19th - choice of Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes or Great Fortitude
20th - +1 to two different attributes; +1 Spell DC or bonus feat
We used that once in place of almost all magic (figure we had 1/4 WBL) and it worked out just fine. If you wanted to go completely without magical gear, then I'd add one more thing - a re-roll of any d20 roll (skill check, save, attack or critical confirmation roll) 1/day at 2nd, 5th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th and 20th. The roll would have to be made before the results are announced and the second roll would stick, even if it were worse. That gives the characters something nice at every level and really frees them from the shackles of needing the 'Big 6'.
Are you talking low magic campaign or no magic campaign? There is a huge difference between the two. If you are looking at a no magic campaign I would honestly recommend another system. A low magic campaign on the other hand is doable.
In a low magic campaign there will still be magic items and spell casters, but they will not be as common. The easiest way to achieve this is to increase the value of magic items. If the value of all magic items are multiplied by 5 this would significantly restrict their availability to the party. If you altered the masterwork rules to allow them to provide full bonuses instead of the limited bonuses they currently do that would also work. I would suggest allowing a maximum bonus of +2 for non-magical equipment.
Damage reduction can also be handled without magic. A lot of damage reduction is already based on special materials this could easily be expanded. Invent some new material that replaced magic damage reduction. You could also allow weapons to be aligned without being magic. Allowing non-magical weapons to be consecrated should not be that big of a deal.
Despite some of the advice given full casters should be allowed. Just increase the cost to create magic items by the same factor as purchasing them and you should not have a problem. This also gives the party access to spells that can replicate a lot of magic items. Spells like Mage Armor and Owls Wisdom become a lot more valuable. This will also tend to keep the spell casters in check because now they have to use some of their spells for things that magic items normally provide.
Despite some of the advice given full casters should be allowed. Just increase the cost to create magic items by the same factor as purchasing them and you should not have a problem. This also gives the party access to spells that can replicate a lot of magic items. Spells like Mage Armor and Owls Wisdom become a lot more valuable. This will also tend to keep the spell casters in check because now they have to use some of their spells for things that magic items normally provide.
This assumes casters can and do use their spells to offset the loss by other characters. While some might be content to do this, others would likely not do this. You would then create an effect similar to the 'healer' demand where a character has to expend his resources and actions to allow other characters ot do their job. I dont like this sort of thing. I am all for keeping casters from dominating the game, but the truth is, low magic item campaigns actually make that much much worse. Why would the wizard cast bulls strength on the fighter when he can just deal with the problem himself almost as effectively as he did with magic items? It just creates a kind of conflict between players that I dont want at my table.
I use a set of house rules that replace the 'big six' magic items with 'boons' that are selected starting from 3rd level. This accounts for 40-60 percent of player wealth expected by level. Then I give them a choice of a set of abilities (the archetypes line of products by rogue genius games). This pretty much accounts for the rest. After that characters dont need any magic items to deal with on level threats, and they become a story item, in which a character would only get a couple items over the course of their entire career. There are also no +x items at all. There is say ignus the flaming sword (insert backstory here) but its just flamming, no +1 or +2. Permanent magic items cant be crafted by normal means (potions, wands and scrolls still can), so they are legendary and priceless items.
Works out pretty well so far. I've been running various games with it. Just the boons also works for a lowish magic item game, but doesnt completely compensate for their lack.
I think you probably want a more even power curve than that. Something closer to this might serve better:
Thanks for the detailed list. Not sure I like the bonus feats - that could throw a lot of things off. The option of attack and damage or AC & saves would seem to encourage glass cannons, at least in my group. I do like the +1 to two different stats better than a flat +2 any stat.
Definitely giving me something to think about.
Are you talking low magic campaign or no magic campaign?
Low magic. Magic weapons, armor, and anything that is permanent will be very rare. Pseudo-potions & pseudo-scrolls will be somewhat rare. Wands will not exist.
Damage reduction can also be handled without magic. A lot of damage reduction is already based on special materials this could easily be expanded. Invent some new material that replaced magic damage reduction. You could also allow weapons to be aligned without being magic. Allowing non-magical weapons to be consecrated should not be that big of a deal.
I'd prefer that damage reduction be used to add some survivability to a monster, rather than it be something that the characters should regularly overcome. Learning what materials overcome a creature's damage reduction will be part of the experience (rather than a simple knowledge check.)
Consecrating non-magical items could work for certain damage reductions.
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I think you probably want a more even power curve than that. Something closer to this might serve better:Thanks for the detailed list. Not sure I like the bonus feats - that could throw a lot of things off. The option of attack and damage or AC & saves would seem to encourage glass cannons, at least in my group. I do like the +1 to two different stats better than a flat +2 any stat.
Definitely giving me something to think about.
Obviously you know your group best and should tailor any advice to suit them. FWIW, I went and looked it up and I made a minor error - this is the progression we actually went by:
1st - Toughness
2nd - +1 to CMB or +1 to CMD
3rd - +1 attack & damage or +1 AC & +1 Saves
4th - +1 to two different attributes
5th - +1 Spell DC or bonus feat; +1 to CMB or +1 to CMD
6th - +1 attack & damage or +1 AC & +1 Saves
7th - choice of Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes or Great Fortitude
8th - +1 to two different attributes; +1 to CMB or +1 to CMD
9th - +1 attack & damage or +1 AC & +1 Saves
10th - +1 Spell DC or bonus feat
11th - +1 to CMB or +1 to CMD
12th - +1 attack & damage or +1 AC & +1 Saves; +1 to two different attributes
13th - choice of Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes or Great Fortitude
14th - +1 to CMB or +1 to CMD
15th - +1 attack & damage or +1 AC & +1 Saves; +1 Spell DC or bonus feat
16th - +1 to two different attributes
17th - +1 to CMB or +1 to CMD
18th - +1 attack & damage or +1 AC & +1 Saves
19th - choice of Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes or Great Fortitude
20th - +1 to two different attributes; +1 Spell DC or bonus feat; +1 to CMB or +1 to CMD
Totals at 6th level:
Toughness
+2 attack & damage or +2 AC & saves*
+2 to CMB or +2 to CMD*
+1 spell DC or 1 bonus feat
+2 to attributes
Totals at 12th level:
Toughness
+2 to one save
+4 attack & damage or +4 AC & saves*
+4 to CMB or +4 to CMD*
+2 spell DC or 2 bonus feats*
+6 to attributes
Totals at 20th level:
Toughness
+2 to saves
+6 attack & damage or +6 AC & saves*
+7 to CMB or +7 to CMD*
+4 spell DC or 4 bonus feats*
+10 to attributes
* - or combinations thereof
The bonus feats are a good balance to the possibility of boosted save DC's for casters I find, and once mixed into the bag of Rage powers, Rogue talents and a Fighter's bonus feats, they weren't really unbalancing at all (i.e. a Human 6th level Fighter would have a total of 9 feats instead of 8).
I agree completely about resourcing materials to overcome DR rather than worrying about magic bonuses. You could also have weapons aligned through blessings or made 'magic' through a low level Wizard/Sorcerer spell that worked similarly to Align Weapon, though in both cases I might have the spell duration extend to 24 hours or something like that.
EDIT: btw - it might not look like it, listed as it is above, but each type of bonus comes at regular intervals, either every 3, 4, 5 or 6 levels.
WHY do you want to do low magic? In order to answer your question properly we need to know this.
I don't suggest Low Magic, but you can limit "Ye Olde Magik Shoppe" and still keep that High Fantasy feel.
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WHY do you want to do low magic? In order to answer your question properly we need to know this.
I don't suggest Low Magic, but you can limit "Ye Olde Magik Shoppe" and still keep that High Fantasy feel.
Speaking for myself, I prefer my campaigns look something like a cross between Lord of the Rings and Game of Thrones. I like to keep the magical, well... magical. Even the first AD&D stuff I was exposed to, the original Dragonlance, had a group of 8 which included only 2 characters capable of casting and magic at all, one divine and one arcane, and both were viewed as mystical and strange.
That's the flavor I've always preferred rather than having magic items be not only ubiquitous to the point that they are bought, sold and traded like bubblegum cards, but also so essential to a character's build and chance for success that the game becomes more about what they can buy than what they can do. If that is the type of 'role-play' I wanted, there's always Diablo or World of Warcraft.
KISS
Allow and encourage Leadership, but do not adjust encounters for the extra cohorts.
PCs begin with:
10 point build 1st - 3rd
15 Point build 4th to 7th
20 point build 8th to 13th
25 point build 14th to 15th
All of those effective "retrains" are free.
For gritty LotR or GoT play E6 or E8.
WHY do you want to do low magic? In order to answer your question properly we need to know this.
I don't suggest Low Magic, but you can limit "Ye Olde Magik Shoppe" and still keep that High Fantasy feel.
Speaking for myself, I prefer my campaigns look something like a cross between Lord of the Rings and Game of Thrones. I like to keep the magical, well... magical. Even the first AD&D stuff I was exposed to, the original Dragonlance, had a group of 8 which included only 2 characters capable of casting and magic at all, one divine and one arcane, and both were viewed as mystical and strange.
That's the flavor I've always preferred rather than having magic items be not only ubiquitous to the point that they are bought, sold and traded like bubblegum cards, but also so essential to a character's build and chance for success that the game becomes more about what they can buy than what they can do. If that is the type of 'role-play' I wanted, there's always Diablo or World of Warcraft.
LotR? Man, those guys were LOADED. Monty Haul loaded. The Single Most Powerful Artifact in the World. The 3rd Most Powerful artifact. Two artifact level swords, maybe three. Bane daggers for all the hobbits. Super Cloaks of eleven kind all around. Relic level Jewel. Boromirs horn. Legolas special bow & string. Lembas,hithlain rope, Gandalfs staff, Sting, and of course what is apparently the Invulnerable Coat of Arndt. Heck, as far as we know Boromirs sword, Gimli's axe & armor were magic too (in fact the official licensed RPG for LotR sez they were) just that they weren't worth mentioning compared to Glamdring.
And, yes, the "bought, sold and traded like bubblegum cards" is an issue for me too, so I just limit "ye olde magic shoppes" and allow low level stuff to be bought at will, but drop cool, personalized magic items, which often have a scaling mechanism.
WHY do you want to do low magic? In order to answer your question properly we need to know this.
I don't suggest Low Magic, but you can limit "Ye Olde Magik Shoppe" and still keep that High Fantasy feel.
Honestly, high fantasy has nothing to do with magic. People seem to get this wrong all the time. High fantasy is the theme of the campaign only applying to concepts involved in saving the world. Low fantasy involve personal wins, but the PCs actions have no effect on the world at large. These are the definitions of high and low fantasy. High fantasy can have low or no magic, while low fantasy can include all the magic items and spells of the game. Magic has no connection to whether it is low or high fantasy. That said, high magic can be problematic in low fantasy, so keeping the magic weak is applicable, but does not define it as low fantasy.
Game of Thrones is high fantasy, because all the plots involve the saving of Westeros from the villainous sovereigns trying to take over, an invasion of the white walkers and their frozen undead, and eventually incursions by dragons. Despite being a fairly low magic setting, it is definitely high fantasy.
Lord of the Rings is high fantasy, because its entirely about saving Middle Earth from Sauron. It too is fairly low magic.
Conan, on the other hand, is low fantasy. While Conan eventually becomes a king of one kingdom, his actions in no way saves the world or necessarily provides a benefit to the inhabitants of the Hyborean Age. It is also magic weak, but that does not define the genre.
Rite Publishing Kaidan setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG) uses all the spellcasters, spells and magic items of a typical PF setting, but it is a low fantasy and gritty setting, despite the availability of magic. Also there are no magic shoppes in Kaidan. Wizards are licensed by the state, and unlicensed spellcasters are considered criminals.
Xoth is a very Conanesque low fantasy and low magic setting built for 3x, but very adaptable to PF, if looking for rules regarding the gimping of magic and spellcasters, this one is well developed for that concept.
Guys, let's take the definition of "High Fantasy" discussion elsewhere, OK?
I don't really allow magic shops in my campaign worlds, artifacers are rare and only found in big cities (and their items are a lot more expensive than Core prices), lots of magic items tend to be found items as treasure created from a time when magic was more available (or rather the same current level of magic, but accumulated over 1000 years). I sometimes ask my players what kind of items they want in the near future, and then I provide them as found treasure. I generally don't allow wands, but do allow limited availability of healing potions as the most common available magic supplies you can purchase. My "magic shops" include ink, paper, and general supplies for wizards, not finished magic items. And these are attributes in my normal game, not a deliberately low magic game.
If I were running a deliberately low magic setting/campaign I wouldn't allow wizards, sorcerers, magi, summoners and maybe not witch (but possibly that one only as arcane caster). I would allow bards and most of the divine half casters (paladin, ranger, inquisitor), maybe oracle, but probably not cleric, nor druid. Martials and half casters would be my limitation, which nixes most of the spells, especially the higher powered ones.
I don't do E6, but that's another solution.
@Dr. Deth, I was only responding to your mention of "feel more like high fantasy" and was the only reason I was discussing it at all. Had you not mentioned that, I wouldn't have responded with definitions (mine I got from English Lit in college, not wikipedia, which I don't trust).
WHY do you want to do low magic? In order to answer your question properly we need to know this.
This is for an ancient world campaign, set roughly in the stone age. One of the themes of the campaign (at least at lower levels) will be survival. An overabundance of magic tends to make survival a non-issue.
I'm using a modified version of the Words of Power system, removing some of the creation type spells and most of the divinations (I just really dislike divination magic, not necessarily linked to a stone-age restriction.)
Most of the available weapons will have the fragile condition, meaning they will break with somewhat regular frequency. Getting a magical version of a fragile weapon often removes the fragile condition, which would remove a very thematic element of the campaign.
So basically I'd like a lot of these bonuses that characters are assumed to have to be rolled into the character automatically rather than them having to obtain the bonuses via items. Then the magic items that do exist will be very colorful and important in the world, rather than just a piece of clothing with a bonus to a particular stat.
This is for an ancient world campaign, set roughly in the stone age. One of the themes of the campaign (at least at lower levels) will be survival. An overabundance of magic tends to make survival a non-issue.
Something we've been working on for the Kaidan setting that might fit the flavor of your campaign idea. The kannushi is a cleric for Shinto beliefs in the worship of kami spirits. Spirits dwell in specific locales of natural beauty and unique eco-systems (waterfalls, groves, holy mountain, marsh areas along a holy river). Clerics have 2 domains. Kannushi have 1 permanent domain, but their second domain changes based on which particular spirit is found locally. When a kannushi moves into unfamiliar territory, they seek out the natural holy sites, attempt to commune with the local spirit, try to appease them to gain access to its spell empowering ability. Whatever domain a given local spirit is concerned is what determines the kannushi's second domain. There is a limited distance from that holy site, that the kannushi can use spells empowered by a given local spirit. Once the kannushi leaves this area, they are relegated to their one domain, until they begin the process over again with a new holy site and a different spirit. Most kannushi are neutral so they can be successful with more varying spirits. Spirits in Kaidan tend not to be good or evil, rather moody, so it changes, but no defined alignment.
I've been thinking recently that such a divine connection to spirits would be a great way to run a stone age campaign.