Personally I have always handled Rings of Sustenance as ridiculously under priced compared to their function. But I do need to point out an important fact I point out to my players about them. They sustain an ordinary person in typical normal activity. Sustaining a person is not the same as maintaining your body weight at what ever it is, it's keeping you from dying. So of course my PC's eat and drink, they tend to be much more active than a normal person. Heck anyone who has fought on and off for prolonged periods of time knows that you require more food/water, heck you're exerting yourself.
As for the sleep reduction thing, if you use those suddenly freed up 6 hours for activity, then off course you get tired mentally and physically more as well. It's not an absolute fix.
As for Currency I have included Steel or Iron Coins in different games as the value of gold, then bumped up gold and platinum to the next tier. Then again you could as easily drop more trade goods/supplies as part of your loot to make it more realistic. It does make parties tend to have to figure out what is worth totting out for their time.
Still had fun with the game where my characters family farmed/harvested troll meat by chaining them down and keeping them alive with collars of sustenance. Though after a point they lose the wild flavor and have to be killed off for new ones.
Mudfoot wrote: Every time I go to the US,... And your credit card operators don't use chip-&-PIN either (or pay-by-bonk, last time I was there). My latest card does *have* a chip, but it was explicitly for international use. So maybe in 5-10 years it'll be fairly common.
Ross Byers wrote: Generally, a PC crafter doesn't make a profit making magic items: crafting an item costs half its market price, and PCs sell items for half their market price, because they're adventurers, not shopkeepers. Crafting feats. An artificer can get costs down to about 1/6th market price, IIRC.
Draco18s wrote: Ross Byers wrote: Generally, a PC crafter doesn't make a profit making magic items: crafting an item costs half its market price, and PCs sell items for half their market price, because they're adventurers, not shopkeepers. Crafting feats. An artificer can get costs down to about 1/6th market price, IIRC. But somebody still has to want to buy the item in question.
I can't picture dragons buying many. And for adventurers to buy them, they have to (a) not be able to make items themselves, and (b) there as to be a relatively large number of successful adventurers.
Oddly, I think the number one buyers of magic items would be crime lords; they have money, and they're going to need special equipment to fight, detect, and pass detection. Which makes that artificer an accessory to a drug- or slave- smuggling ring.
pachristian wrote: But somebody still has to want to buy the item in question.
I can't picture dragons buying many.
You clearly don't play the long game or think like a 10,000 year old reptile. ;)
What's better for dealing with the invasions you have to face every week ranging from "thief who wants your shinies" to "the knight wants that princess back" to "the party of opposingly-aligned adventurers":
A) Sorcerer spells as a 4th level caster
B) A wand of Chain Lightning and a Contingent Dominate Person?
pachristian wrote:
Oddly, I think the number one buyers of magic items would be crime lords; they have money, and they're going to need special equipment to fight, detect, and pass detection. Which makes that artificer an accessory to a drug- or slave- smuggling ring. And governments have no need of these things?
Not to mention nongovernment (para)military forces like knightly orders, noble households (both for security and because rich people like shiny things), churches and arcane societies?
I'm sure a dragon will want magic items.
I just don't think they're likely to buy them. That would require giving up a portion of your hoard. More likely to steal, demand as tribute, or maybe for more benevolent dragons trade favours for.
Weirdo wrote: I just don't think they're likely to buy them. That would require giving up a portion of your hoard. More likely to steal, demand as tribute, or maybe for more benevolent dragons trade favours for. Dragons do like their gold, I'll grant you that. But dragons are also hyperintelligent and know a good investment when they see one.
In fact, I once heard someone postulate the idea of a dragon acting as a safety deposit box. You loan it your valuables, it sits on them (lit.), and you pay a small yearly fee. So buying some minorly-pricy magic items to better protect the rest of the hoard is not unreasonable.
I could see a dragon bank working very well, once the trustworthiness of the dragon has been established.
Ross Byers wrote: Generally, a PC crafter doesn't make a profit making magic items: crafting an item costs half its market price, and PCs sell items for half their market price, because they're adventurers, not shopkeepers. That's run under the assumption that the person you are selling it to are going to buy it on the premise that they are going to sell it again to make a profit. It's mostly used as a quick rule of thumb to hoc off lots of items that the PC's are just trying to get rid of. However if the PC is crafting items for sale then he can ask full price if he/she wants. They also have to find or have someone find them to sell such items to. Then it comes down to reputation, and skill use. Appraise, Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, certain Knowledge skills, and Profession (Craft is more about creation, less about the business aspect. After all players can have both craft and profession for the same trade. Example: Blacksmithing. There are lots of examples of businesses that had a person who handled the making aspect, and someone else who handled the business end. Ultimately it's up to the GM)
It would be far more difficult for an adventurer to devote as much time in building a solid customer base and/or reputation. After all the local armies/militia/lords are going to want someone they know/trust, not to mention be there on a regular basis that they can rely on. After all would you go down the street and by potions from the guy who just rolled into town? or would you feel safer with the guy who has had his shop set up for years that you can check out his credentials?
After all a smart PC who wants to make a good impression could sell items/services at a low cost to gather customers until their reputation grew enough. It can also be a good way to handle characters for players that aren't able to make games or in campaigns where you have multiple characters and loads of PC's that have to set up missions. I played in a campaign where many of the PC's where also settlers in a new land. We had around 30 players who all had to organize different parties that changed alot to go out explore or search/gather resources for the settlement, and many of the Players had multiple characters to allow for partying when their other characters where in the field. So in that campaign many of our PCs also doubled as NPCs from time to time.
It's not a realistic society tho. You have magical items and an incredible amount of wealth circulating around from crazy people going into caves to fight big monsters.
I'm with you on that. Then again when those people come back, they have to try and get rid of the stuff. The books do discuss economies and wealth levels of settlements. Most of that well would be in trade goods rather than cash, so unless they wait and make it to a larger city, or spend a few days or weeks to sell everything they probably won't really be able to get rid of everything anyway.
As for magical items and things, it's not really that ridiculous. I mean if you figure a family has a farm and they make even fairly average checks they can amass a fair amount of coin from selling off a crop or by doing their job using their actually skill checks. Sure a good chunk of that money has to go to support them during the growing season and taxes, but they can still make a alright amount given ok growing conditions.
After all a Profession/craft check would be by week, and you'd add the results together as you go until you finished the project. For many of those, they can take weeks or months to complete. An average DC 10 or 15 check for a single person for a month would be worth 40gp or 60gp respectively, and that's only for minimum rolls, when a large project could have several dozen people working on it and adding all the results together.
Sure the PCs will probably come into wealth incredibly fast, otherwise they probably wouldn't enjoy it as much. "What do you mean, there isn't any treasure in the lair? What was the point in killing it if we don't make any money off it?" And who says that selling vast quantities of items/throwing around gold like it's candy wouldn't earn attention in it's own right, possibly leading to additional hooks and adventures?
Sure the economy isn't really normal, but with a bit of work you can make it actually pretty robust without going crazy. After all, what happens when your PC's start amassing land and wealth and want to start trying to make more money off that? Will ever investment pay off? Will they have to work at some of those deals? Will other competitors and lords get jealous or will they maybe become partners with them instead?
Depending on your players that sort of thing can be up their alley, and it adds a level of depth and reality to the fictional game. And it also helps you world build. Who trades with whom? Why does this area look different than this area? How much money is in the caravan that just got raided by bandits? Would it be more worthwhile for the PCs to hold onto some items to trade in a different area where those items are more valuable? Stuff like that.
Most GM's assume that what you loot from the dungeon will be gold, but wealth can be pretty much anything. Lumber, iron, coal, oil, food, animals, armor, weapons, books, spices, whatever. Lots of PC's though don't really view those things as worth the time or effort to hall back, they prefer what they typically view as treasure. When we played the settlement campaign it turned into a really worth while experience to build up the place, rack up favors, and gain reputation. Sure the individual party members didn't have as much impressive gear, but the experience was very rewarding. Plus we had our occupation skills to fall back in case of emergencies. Plus we had a lot going on politically at the time, even with the news lag from trying to communicate with the mainland across the ocean. When we found magic gear we couldn't easily just sell it, there just wasn't that much wealth in the settlement to buy them. Instead people waited and traded them for items others found or had, and barter became really important. Every system has it's flaws and it's perks.
Who's to say that the next time the PC's hear a rumor about riches, that some noble hasn't heard it to, and they are willing to send people in themselves? Then you also have competition, or the funny moment when they go in and find something else has moved in the now vacant cave/dungeon and gives them a surprise. Or what happens if they get there and encounter other looters? Will they kill them and seize it for themselves? Will they offer assistance for a cut? or will they walk away and go search for someplace else?
I tend to handle some stuffs like that: The way I handle it as a GM most of the times, especially when I roll for the "big magic" items of a settlement by pathfinder rules. You don't find them in shop. Like if I roll a celestial armor, do you think a shopkeeper is going to be the one selling it in his window? Probably not, the celestial armor would probably be the property of a noble or maybe a retired adventurer, where our heroes might need to bargain and talk with the npc to actually acquire said items.
Because from an economic point of view, it doesn't really make sense for a shop owner to make magical items worth more than 3000 gp. The number of people who can actually buy said items are so small, you might as well focus on all the starter adventurers who try their lucks at killing ogres, some come back, some perishes. Also there is disturbing lack of protection and wards against getting magical items stolen..just saying.
Question for the Forum
I'm about to run the Emerald Spire and I see it going really wrong.
The book says, "The town of inevitable taxes adventurers 30% to operate."
I get that the writer is trying to drive home this idea that the regime is iron fisted in the way any gamer can understand, but I am afraid it is going to ruin the module.
These things have an implied agreement between GM and player that the party is going to actually do the adventure. The counter agreement is that the GM isn't going to put the party through something they wouldn't do.
This is what happens:
The party hears about the law and refuses to play the adventure. Instead of going to Fort Inevitable, they march out 25 miles to get away from the hell knights and set up camp at another town. They buy a wagon and act like travels to get to the spire. If they are caught or bothered by the hell knights, they will either be kill or be killed because no pc is ever captured without something ham-fisted. If they do escape, the GM has to activate the hell knights, derailing the whole dungeon. If the party ever makes it to level 1 of the dungeon, they will already be like live 4.
Then the GM has to restat the dungeon or let it suck. Either thing blows the point of buying a module.
Beyond that, there wouldn't be any other adventures in town either. They would just leave. It isn't like there would be much work, besides the spire, for adventurers within 20 miles of the highly efficient and motivated hell knights what wiped out banditry anyway.
That makes sense, because Hell Knights would have a monopoly on violence, and wouldn't be permitting armed travelers through their lands really, anyway.
It is a cute setup, and I like it if it were a novel and the main character couldn't leave town because of his dear sick mother, but for an RPG this 30% tax blows, and so do the lawful evil (good) Hell Knights.
This whole back story feels like a trap to derail a game. Why can't the town just be ruled by the lovable but incompetent Frodo and his 15th level wizard body guard, the bumbling and otherworldly half demon what destroys PCs who attack the castle?
This is my real question, to anyone who has played the Emerald Spire: if you drop the 30% tax, do the players end up with +30% WBL, all things being equal?
darth_borehd wrote: I have heard an argument from some that there are too many gold pieces in Pathfinder. Supposedly you can get closer to a realistic medieval economy by changing the rarity of gold and platinum coins.
The fix is to make 100 coppers equal to a silver, 100 silver to a gold, and 100 gold to platinum.
What does everybody else think?
I think in the long view it does not in any way matter. There is too much gold in the world if you and your players feel there is.
Golarion, Greyhawk, Faerun, etc are all differnt planets than earth with magic and gods. Just because gold is super rare here does not mean there is not actually larger quantities of it on those worlds that works just fine for their economies.
In the end ask yourself, do you need to have a super accurate economic model for your world or is it more fun to have a simple to handle coin system in your game?
Draco18s wrote: pachristian wrote: But somebody still has to want to buy the item in question.
I can't picture dragons buying many.
You clearly don't play the long game or think like a 10,000 year old reptile. ;)
What's better for dealing with the invasions you have to face every week ranging from "thief who wants your shinies" to "the knight wants that princess back" to "the party of opposingly-aligned adventurers":
A) Sorcerer spells as a 4th level caster
B) A wand of Chain Lightning and a Contingent Dominate Person? Hmmm I think I met that dragon once, he had a rather unusual interest in human women and would kidnap a random princess every so often wait for a hero to show up to rescue her put up a token resistance (enough to be believable) then surrender and let them go up to rescue the maiden fair. At which point the gender change spell kicked in turning the hero into a woman and trapping her behind the gender specific spells that prevented women from passing through them. Worked well really till he ran into a female knight. I believe he's currently lying low from a bunch of very angry adventurers who've teamed up with a desire for a dragon's hide.
Anyway on topic as it were I've never had the time (or players interested enough) but I'd also like to have run a game with different gold values for different countries. Gets very complex though when the rabidashian soverign (gold) buys 4 of the smaller reichan doubloons (also gold) or .35 of the eisenchart church mark (gold again).
Best I could manage is just the previously suggested shift everything up a step so platinum becomes gold, gold becomes silver and silver becomes copper. For the traditional copper barter replaced it as adventurers very rarely deal with copper pieces after character creation and for values over it gems and other precious metals where used instead. Its one of those things I think works in real life where everyone uses that coinage but in a game played part time too much coinage change gets confusing to maintain.
I've often wondered what DnD worlds would evolve into as technology caught up to modern standards. Would magic become commericalized, would you have mass magical production with armies ordering 10,000 +1 guns, would magic command even higher prices as while 10,000 mundane guns could be mass produced the commanders +3 one would still need to be indvidually made, would plains and ships exist, would they only be used on the important routes from the heavily defended teleport circles to major cities? I know I could use a ring of sustenance in my day to day life although I'd prefer the magical powers necessary to create them or render them unecessary grin.
SockPuppet wrote: Question for the Forum
I'm about to run the Emerald Spire and I see it going really wrong.
The book says, "The town of inevitable taxes adventurers 30% to operate."
Eh, not insurmountable, you just turn the loot into physical commodities as fast as possible. If I spend my money before taxes on stuff like horses, equipment and the like, its going to be tough for their laws to account for 30% of my horse. Or if it does its going to be tricky.
My problem with stuff like this is also the problem I have with stuff like the River Kingdoms. Wildly ridiculous fantasy economic practices.
I was reading through my Inner Sea World guide for funsies (I don't run Golarian, but ideas are ideas), and discovered their ridiculous 'freedoms.'
Notable among these is the idea that laws change at a whim, and you only get to keep what you're strong enough to keep.
This doesn't work.
One of the polestars of a successful economy are laws necessitating an equal marketplace, as well as assurances on property rights.
I can't see any merchant, ever, doing business with the River Kingdoms.
Merchant: I've brought my goods.
Constable of the City: No, they're my goods now.
Merchant: ...so you'll pay me?
Constable of the City: Nope!
or alternatively
BUyer: Ok, here's 20gp for the horse.
Merchant: Thanks. Now you need to pay more for the horse.
Buyer: I just paid 20gp!
Merchant: Yeah, I'm increasing the price until you empty your pockets.
These are ridiculous, yes, but in a situation where the rules aren't rules and property relies on you to be a klingon to 'hold onto it' there's no reason for external traders to come in, and no reason for local traders or producers to go to market, this would result in sudden production inefficiencies as people would have to become increasingly self-reliant.
Also, why would I join the army of a River King? He doesn't have to pay me if say I get injured (I can't force him to at that point) and he similarly has no real assurances that I will obey his orders once I'm outside of sword range.
Orfamay Quest wrote: a high-powered law firm might find the ability to work six more hours each night (six more billable hours) would pay for a itself within a year or two. Your lawyers get to sleep 6 hours a night!?
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