You are a melee combatant.
You cannot full attack for whatever reasons.
You cannot cast spells.
What do you do?
Basically I want to see ideas or list everything you can do in combat when full attacking is not an option. Sure full attacks get you a lot of damage but where is the fun in that. What are your tips and tricks of handling combat when you just can't full attack?
I'm not trying to start debates on whether or not they are viable options, nor arguments on the virtue or bane of iterative attacks.
Third party and homebrew is valid so long as it is noted as such.
Dirty Trick with Greater Dirty Trick and Dirty Trick Master. And since I can't full attack I might as well be a Human Monk or Ninja with Racial Heritage Gnome and Bewildering Koan: Standard action debilitate someone, swift action blow the guy next to him's mind, shutting them both down for the next turn.
You can do maneuvers, but those take investment. And you can uhh... set up your next full attack? Use alchemical items that don't scale very well maybe? Assist for a small bonus?
Path of War (or tome of battle if you're 3.Ping) has a lot of cool standard action tricks for their totally-not-spellcaster martials.
Its a trap!
Also not core. if its not core and we're including 3.5 we could talk about binders/occultist using blast attacks or warlocks using eldritch blast. Glaivelock was always a cool concept imo. OH! and there are a number of blast and supernatural abilities, but that's probably a little too much casting and not very martial.
You are a melee combatant.
You cannot full attack for whatever reasons.
You cannot cast spells.
What do you do?
Basically I want to see ideas or list everything you can do in combat when full attacking is not an option. Sure full attacks get you a lot of damage but where is the fun in that. What are your tips and tricks of handling combat when you just can't full attack?
I'm not trying to start debates on whether or not they are viable options, nor arguments on the virtue or bane of iterative attacks.
Third party and homebrew is valid so long as it is noted as such.
Vital Strike! for fighters
Single attack or spell for others.
Single sneak attack for rogues (not like they normally full attack)
Setting yourself up as a 25' across circle of pain as a reach weapon user? A lot of attacks of opportunity can make up for less full attacks. And sure, enemies could try to go around you...but that means they are both wasting their move speed and they cannot do a charge (and possibly a pounce) without risking your punishment. It helps to protect the squishier party members when you turn yourself into a living obstacle on the battlefield.
Another option would be the stand still feat combined either with the pin down feat (for level 11 fighters) or the No Escape for level 9 brawler archetype fighters. Both paths do the same thing: make just about any movement draw AoO when you are adjacent to the target, and then using a maneuver instead of that AoO to just tell them 'no' when they move. And both just need you to stand next to the target and have enough AoO's left over to smack them on the back of the head.
The brawler is particularly effective at turning itself into such a trap, since they have an ability that gives them half their fighter level as a bonus on the maneuver starting at level 13. That means they can even have a chance on telling big beefy things that they can't chew on the wizard. Brawlers also have a rather nice debuff ability on anything in those adjacent squares, making it harder to do attacks or cast spells. So again, you can serve as a deterrent to protect squishier party members, as well as give casters a beat down anytime they try to look at you funny and mumble under their breath.
He did say third party was acceptable.Its a trap!
Also not core. if its not core and we're including 3.5 we could talk about binders/occultist using blast attacks or warlocks using eldritch blast. Glaivelock was always a cool concept imo. OH! and there are a number of blast and supernatural abilities, but that's probably a little too much casting and not very martial.
I did say third party was acceptable. Maneuvers do feel like disciple options rather than martial options because of the feat investment needed for them so I can see where it feels less like a solution.
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Move around so you type out the alphabet in Helvetica font.
Single attack
Charge
Move into flanking with other team members
Fight Defensively/Total Defense
Combat maneuvers. Sometimes it's worth it to eat an attack of opportunity to mess with the opponent.
Block off a choke point
Interact with the environment. From swinging on chandeliers to pushing a table on its side for cover to holding a door closed. Any many other possibilities.
Pull allies to different spots.
Really, there's plenty of stuff to do as a front liner that's not just "I full attack" every turn.
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Hold your 2-handed weapon in one hand, move+draw javelin, throw javelin, re-grab 2-handed weapon with both hands.
I recently saw javelins used to great effect this way by a barbarian. No feat investment of any kind needed, and you get to apply STR to damage, attractive for a primarily melee opponent. I'm going to start doing it with my paladin too, since he moves rather slowly.
Wow, that's it? Even with third party and homebrew? I guess full attack is the kids g of all actions.
Wow, that's it? Even with third party and homebrew? I guess full attack is the kids g of all actions.
Well... Unless you go to another game. I think there are a few homebrew things on changing how full attacks actually work.
Wow, that's it? Even with third party and homebrew? I guess full attack is the kids g of all actions.
Yup. That's it. I'm pretty sure if there were interesting Martial options that were actually viable and weren't dependant upon magic items, they'd have been listed by now.
I will one-up the Dirty Tricks maneuver, since you essentially get an entire slew of debilitating effects which are easy to apply and work conjunctively with a Full Attack. It's a Standard Action otherwise, which is lame, but being able to do it 1/round at your highest BAB, while also getting your other attacks to actually deal damage, is very useful.
The only problem? The blasted pre-requisite taxes. 13 Intelligence and Combat Expertise are pre-requisites no sane Martial would possess unless Intelligence/Dexterity are their primary stats. By that point, you might as well play a Dervish Dance Magus and save yourself the trouble.
This is what you get when a system is entirely predicated on magic and fantasy; the subjects that the game is consisted of is the only valid and acceptable means to progress.
This is what you get when a system is entirely predicated on magic and fantasy; the subjects that the game is consisted of is the only valid and acceptable means to progress.
Well, I'm not sure if that's entirely true. Its contemporaries, some of them anyway, have taken on giving martials options here and there or trying to add onto the whole full attack scheme so you don't just attack, but you do a combo or your full attack usually carries extra effects like hitting the people around you, pushback, debuffs on the go, or some other sort of madness. So while 3.x carries something heavy in full attack, pathfinder in particular, some other games with magic and fantasy gave some other options to martials that were fantastic but not necessarily magical.
The only problem? The blasted pre-requisite taxes. 13 Intelligence and Combat Expertise are pre-requisites no sane Martial would possess unless Intelligence/Dexterity are their primary stats. By that point, you might as well play a Dervish Dance Magus and save yourself the trouble.
Eh, its not that bad actually, if you aren't a ranger or paladin (who have other mental stats to worry about). With a rather conservative spread on a 20 point buy (using human/half-something, since those are the usual choices for most people), it goes from this:
STR: 18(16+2) DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 10 CHA: 10To this:
STR: 16(14+2) DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 14 WIS: 10 CHA: 10
You could also easily drop that CHA a down to 7 to get 17 STR and 12 WIS. So overall, you might lose one bonus to hit and 1-2 damage while still filling the prerequisites. And considering that these stats are somewhat the standard for the 'half-casters' who expect to hit things and do damage on 3/4 BAB, I think you can manage.
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The Quick Runner's Shirt and Stagger Proof Boots are both excellent items to avoid this situation entirely. You can have both, with a bit of dedication to Cayden Cailean, anyway. ;)
That said, while the Combat Maneuver suggestion is quite good, I've gotta suggest simply attacking once. Is it ideal? No. Is it nonetheless a meaningful amount of damage? If you built the character well and aren't TWF, yes it is.
And on the Dirty Trick thing: In the RotRL game I'm going to be playing in, one player is going Urban Ranger and TWF...so as to use Butterfly's Sting with paired kukris for maximum crit farming potential. He'll also be going into Dirty Trick, based on real kukri users having grooves in the blade which they use to catch blood to flick into their opponents eyes.
That's...a really solid and flavorful Human Ranger build and seemed worth sharing.
Intimidate to cause shaken condition.
Reposition to facilitate rogue.
Reposition to protect wizard.
Administer first aid.
Throw bags of marbles coated in oil.
Grapple the enemy wizard.
Bull rush targets into environmental hazards.
Readied actions! People often forgets about them, but they can be very useful to solve a lot of situations. You could draw a ranged weapon (like a throwing axe) and ready a ranged attack against the caster with the trigger "As he starts casting a spell..." forcing him to succeed potentially hard concentration checks.
Ready an action.
Because 99% of the time you just can't full attack (after the first round) it's because something stupid like a Blink Dog or Phase Spider is popping in and out and it's your only option PERIOD.
Intimidate to cause shaken condition.
Reposition to facilitate rogue.
Reposition to protect wizard.
Administer first aid.
Throw bags of marbles coated in oil.
Grapple the enemy wizard.
Bull rush targets into environmental hazards.
You're welcome to try Intimidation, though it only lasts for 1 round, and unless you super-invest (not many Martials can afford to), it won't last for much more than that. Dazzling Display could help, but it also follows the same restrictions.
Reposition Maneuvers are the same as Dirty Tricks in that they require a lot of unnecessary investment; the only difference is Dirty Tricks is potentially worth it, whereas Reposition Maneuver is just plain silly. It's also a lot less likely to work, since I'm pretty certain effects like Freedom of Movement would negate its usability.
Healing can help, but only when you got somebody who's on the ground bleeding out. Even so, most people don't invest in healing outside of maybe a CLW Wand or 2. By the time they outgrow it, they should be able to 1-shot anything before they get hit if built right, so it's a great contingency, but unless it's do-or-die or out of combat, it's not useful.
I'm pretty sure the whole marbles trick falls under the same premise as the Trip Maneuver; although less investment and probably not as much limitations (creature size, for example), it still has to deal with the disparaging CMB/CMD/Acrobatics/Escape Artist/Whatever, which chances are creatures will have it high, since the marbles DC is a flat number, whereas the creature affected will have those subjects scale higher and higher. In other words, an acceptable low level usage, but becomes useless as the CR climbs.
Freedom of Movement says hi. It's not a hard investment, and is probably something a Wizard would have onto a Ring. Combine that with a Meridian Belt (a mere 1,000 gold), and he can toggle between 4 rings (8 rings if you allow each single ring to combine with one other type of ring) as a Swift Action.
Bull Rush falls under the same size restrictions as Trip. On top of which, requiring a single item for it to be a viable maneuver (which, by the way, this thread sheds a lot of insight that can be made with Bull Rush,) questions whether it's really a smart strategy or not.
It is as I've said; if there were super-smart ways to contribute to combat for Martials outside of Full Attack that didn't involve Magic (Dirty Tricks coming so close), people would've found them by now.
Freedom of Movement says hi. It's not a hard investment, and is probably something a Wizard would have onto a Ring. Combine that with a Meridian Belt (a mere 1,000 gold), and he can toggle between 4 rings (8 rings if you allow each single ring to combine with one other type of ring) as a Swift Action.
And you are ready to give your party 8 rings in every single encounter?
While I can understand that there are counters to a lot of these tactics... it seems hard to believe that you could continually pull these out during the entire campaign without it just getting silly. These are things that you pull out for important bosses to make them tough. Not as something to invalidate a build. This is not like a poor will save that could be preyed upon by any number of random encounters with a spell like or supernatural ability.
And overall, these are all options. Having a lot of options means you pick the ones appropriate to the situation. Not all of them are appropriate to every situation.
Plan A: Antagonize with Diplomacy to fluster the enemy. It lasts a whole minute *and* you can still intimidate to demoralize the target on the next round.
Plan B: Use Aid Another to boost AC or to-hit.
Plan C: Run around with Panther Style to provoke AoOs and use retaliatory attacks.
Freedom of Movement says hi. It's not a hard investment, and is probably something a Wizard would have onto a Ring. Combine that with a Meridian Belt (a mere 1,000 gold), and he can toggle between 4 rings (8 rings if you allow each single ring to combine with one other type of ring) as a Swift Action.And you are ready to give your party 8 rings in every single encounter?
While I can understand that there are counters to a lot of these tactics... it seems hard to believe that you could continually pull these out during the entire campaign without it just getting silly. These are things that you pull out for important bosses to make them tough. Not as something to invalidate a build. This is not like a poor will save that could be preyed upon by any number of random encounters with a spell like or supernatural ability.
And overall, these are all options. Having a lot of options means you pick the ones appropriate to the situation. Not all of them are appropriate to every situation.
It's not like it's difficult for a Wizard to have an Arcane Bond regarding some of those effects. You could even have it be an Arcanist, or a Sorcerer/Wizard multi-class at low levels, and get 2 Arcane Bonds, both of which can be rings.
Meridian Belt, which only costs 1,000 gold, allows you to place 2 slots worth of Rings on the Belt, allowing you to interchange between the 2 rings on your fingers and the 2 on the belt, any combination, as a Swift Action. It's not bad at all for a very challenging low-level BBEG who can chill back and throw spells at you all day while mooks stall you.
Besides, all I did was state that it's an easy investment because you can have a grand total of 4 rings (each with 2 sets of effects), and you can interchange between 2 of them at a time. You throw in a Hand of Glory Neck slot and a 10-Ring Broadsword, and you can technically have 4 Rings active at one time, with a grand total of 8 rings (16 if you consider the separate effects).
I'll also point out that Grapple becomes an issue whenever casters reach Spell Level 4, because that's when they can cast Freedom of Movement as a buff using their own spell slots. It's a very nice spell, and a caster who wants to cover his defensive bases will have that spell known/memorized. He's only shorting himself otherwise.
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Cleave.
Spring Attack.
Crushing Blow.
Scorpion Style (and friends).
Dirty Trick (and friends).
Total Defense.
Vital Strike.
Retrieval and use of Magic items.
Activate a wand.
Perform a Combat Maneuver (even untrained).
Intimidate.
Use Alchemical item.
Aid another.
Ready.
Activate command magic items.
Activate SL and SU abilities (domain powers and bloodline powers, chiefly).
Probably a few more things I am missing but that should cover the bulk of it.
Plan A: Antagonize with Diplomacy to fluster the enemy. It lasts a whole minute *and* you can still intimidate to demoralize the target on the next round.
Plan B: Use Aid Another to boost AC or to-hit.
Plan C: Run around with Panther Style to provoke AoOs and use retaliatory attacks.
The Antagonize feat could potentially work, and most combats don't last for more than 3 rounds; 10 rounds should be all you need. However, it's only great for single targets. You probably won't need to use it for the mooks, but if there are several "Big Bads," it becomes very ineffective, very fast. In addition, it really boils into a minor inconvenience, and also requires similar investments in order to be good at, for example, say, Acrobatics checks.
Aid Another is another great one, especially if you can't meaningfully contribute to combat in terms of melee. It's a great option for characters like Bards, or maybe even Monks. Tack them out to be extremely tankey (since they only really ever have to hit AC 10), and you really have a useful tactic that you can use if you can't really do much else. However, if you're a Full BAB class, or a class who can contribute effectively in melee, it becomes a wasted effort.
Again, can work, but is also really risky. If you're built too tankey, this won't be terribly effective, though you do contribute in letting your fellow party members move around without issue, which is really nice. Though it can be accomplished through other means. If you aren't tankey enough, chances are you're going to die before you can do anything, so it's a fine line here. But with enough system mastery, can be effective, though again, requires a lot of potentially unwanted investment.
Freedom of Movement says hi. It's not a hard investment, and is probably something a Wizard would have onto a Ring. Combine that with a Meridian Belt (a mere 1,000 gold), and he can toggle between 4 rings (8 rings if you allow each single ring to combine with one other type of ring) as a Swift Action.And you are ready to give your party 8 rings in every single encounter?
While I can understand that there are counters to a lot of these tactics... it seems hard to believe that you could continually pull these out during the entire campaign without it just getting silly. These are things that you pull out for important bosses to make them tough. Not as something to invalidate a build. This is not like a poor will save that could be preyed upon by any number of random encounters with a spell like or supernatural ability.
And overall, these are all options. Having a lot of options means you pick the ones appropriate to the situation. Not all of them are appropriate to every situation.
It's not like it's difficult for a Wizard to have an Arcane Bond regarding some of those effects. You could even have it be an Arcanist, or a Sorcerer/Wizard multi-class at low levels, and get 2 Arcane Bonds, both of which can be rings.
Meridian Belt, which only costs 1,000 gold, allows you to place 2 slots worth of Rings on the Belt, allowing you to interchange between the 2 rings on your fingers and the 2 on the belt, any combination, as a Swift Action. It's not bad at all for a very challenging low-level BBEG who can chill back and throw spells at you all day while mooks stall you.
Besides, all I did was state that it's an easy investment because you can have a grand total of 4 rings (each with 2 sets of effects), and you can interchange between 2 of them at a time. You throw in a Hand of Glory Neck slot and a 10-Ring Broadsword, and you can technically have 4 Rings active at one time, with a grand total of 8 rings (16 if you consider the...
Not every enemy caster is going to burn a slot (especially their only slot) on freedom of movement, and even fewer will burn the action to cast it if they aren't expecting combat. Many will. But most wizards can't cover every base at once, so grappling the enemy wizard remains a viable tactic well into the next few levels (until they have a ring to do it).
I'll also point out that Grapple becomes an issue whenever casters reach Spell Level 4, because that's when they can cast Freedom of Movement as a buff using their own spell slots. It's a very nice spell, and a caster who wants to cover his defensive bases will have that spell known/memorized. He's only shorting himself otherwise.
Quick question, since I check the rules forum and there was no clear answer: would stand still work on someone with freedom of movement? It is a maneuver to stop AoO drawing movement, but it never gets defined as any specific maneuver other than...well 'stand still'.
Freedom of movement by passes spells, escape artist checks, grapple checks, and prevents grapple attempts. Those seem like a fairly specific list of circumstances, which do not include stand still...
Also, I'd like to note (note entirely sure if it is any one specific comment, or a mix of the conversation that brought this up)- wizards can't get freedom of movement, right? I mean, pretty much every casting class that isn't a 9 level arcane caster and paladin seems to have it. I'm not missing something that just says 'you get freedom of movement', am I?
@Rynjin: in my experience it's often because encounters start at more than 2x my speed distance, or because there's no charge lane available.
But ready actions are pretty good. Sacrificing your own full attack to deny the opponent his full-turn plan can be very much worth it.
IME this is a fairly rare occurrence (though admittedly playing a character that moves less than 40 ft. a round is rare for me, and less than 30 is nonexistent), and still doesn't qualify for any long term inability to full attack.
My impression of the OP was things to do when you "just can't full attack", long combats where it's not possible.
Use magic device and scrolls/wands to emulate being a spellcaster?
If you've got the feats to spare (either fighter or monk), grappling is an amazing option.
With Greater Grapple and a few boosting items, you can easily throw down enough grapple CMB to beat almost any normal, medium-sized enemy by level 7 or so. Since initiating a grapple is a standard action, you don't need to worry about full-rounds.
Then what? Next turn, as a standard action, you maintain the grapple, with a +5 bonus. You can choose to use this check to pin your enemy, then tie them up the round after (with Greater Grapple, on the same turn, as a move action), or make your check at -10 to tie them up in a single action. If your CMB is high enough, they can't burst the ropes, and are helpless for the rest of the fight.
If you're still getting those move actions as well (but just can't take standard actions), consider taking a second maneuver specialization, as well as the panther style chain of feats. This lets you move past a ton of enemies, and use your retaliatory attacks to disarm/trip/etc. everyone you provoke an AoO from, then grapple in the same turn; next turn, you tie them up, and use your move action to disarm a bunch of new people you sweep past.
(I recently built a monk on this principle, and while she's not very good at proper combat, she can use grapples and disarms to take down about 5-7 weak enemies per round).
Throw a net even if you dont have proficiency.
It's a touch attack and entangles foes of large or smaller. -2 to Attack rolls and a -4 to dexterity. They can't run or charge and move at half speed.
And if you're throwing in all the splatbooks, you can fire off a trip arrow (or a full attack's worth), an aklys, or a pilum.
Pilum has the advantage over regular javelins that you're taking out your enemy's shield for when you close to melee.
And if you have a mount, you can make a full ranged attack at no penalty as long as your mount moves its speed or less (with quick draw, that lets you make a full attack with javelins).
I'll also point out that Grapple becomes an issue whenever casters reach Spell Level 4, because that's when they can cast Freedom of Movement as a buff using their own spell slots. It's a very nice spell, and a caster who wants to cover his defensive bases will have that spell known/memorized. He's only shorting himself otherwise.Quick question, since I check the rules forum and there was no clear answer: would stand still work on someone with freedom of movement? It is a maneuver to stop AoO drawing movement, but it never gets defined as any specific maneuver other than...well 'stand still'.
Freedom of movement by passes spells, escape artist checks, grapple checks, and prevents grapple attempts. Those seem like a fairly specific list of circumstances, which do not include stand still...
Also, I'd like to note (note entirely sure if it is any one specific comment, or a mix of the conversation that brought this up)- wizards can't get freedom of movement, right? I mean, pretty much every casting class that isn't a 9 level arcane caster and paladin seems to have it. I'm not missing something that just says 'you get freedom of movement', am I?
Reviewing the spell description:
This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. All combat maneuver checks made to grapple the target automatically fail. The subject automatically succeeds on any combat maneuver checks and Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.
The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, grant water breathing.
Looking at the bolded part, I find that Stand Still would be an effect that hinders one's ability to "move and attack normally," and since it says that it works even for spells that impede movement, it's not difficult to assume that a non-spell effect which impedes (or stops) movement altogether, and cite a subject that specifically says you can't move (paralysis, web), it's safe to say that Stand Still wouldn't work.
However, I find that it is, at best, GM FIAT and speculation, since most people tend to stick to only the examples. (Which is fine; a conservative view is most certainly the more favorable approach.) Even so, it's not hard for the target to simply use a Quickened Teleport, from Metamagic or Rod.
I will apologize for assuming that Freedom of Movement was on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list; apparently it is not. (I'm absolutely shocked that it isn't, since it seems like it would fall under a spell they can cast.) All the more reason to have an Arcane Bond ring (or just a regular ring) with the Freedom of Movement spell constant to prevent one of the biggest problems you could possibly have, and with a Meridian Belt, it isn't difficult to simply free yourself on your turn and then proceed to DD to safety, rekindle your bearings, and get back into it.
And what happens when the players start getting sunder happy every single time they see a spellcaster?
I mean, it is not exactly hard when you are facing a 1/2 BAB character that likely has very little strength. And even a 'BSF' would start being able to recognize meridian belts after the twelfth time you throw them at the party. And that would take out a ton of rings with a single maneuver. A debuff like that is well worth an AoO.
Actually, that sounds like a rather good thing to do when the martials can't full attack. And it can work well with the whole stand still thing (since again, the value is trapping your opponent, not necessarily in what happens before that). Heck, if the ring was an arcane bond and got sunderedseparated, then that would further complicate concentration checks.
Your attempts at weaseling out of this have made you rather vurnerable.....
The issue with that is that the sweet Ring of Freedom you just destroyed would have looked really nice on you once you killed the caster; sure you made him easy pickings by breaking his nice toys, but at the same time those nice toys were essentially left to you in that enemy's will. You are breaking your stuff. And that is why sunder is rare.
That's not to say it's always a bad idea... sometimes you got to break some of your stuff to keep the other bits of your stuff from escaping.
You could cleave, vital strike, do a maneuver, trip, or sunder. Sure the later options involve feats to get good at but you can always get lucky with the dice.
And what happens when the players start getting sunder happy every single time they see a spellcaster?
I mean, it is not exactly hard when you are facing a 1/2 BAB character that likely has very little strength. And even a 'BSF' would start being able to recognize meridian belts after the twelfth time you throw them at the party. And that would take out a ton of rings with a single maneuver. A debuff like that is well worth an AoO.
Actually, that sounds like a rather good thing to do when the martials can't full attack. And it can work well with the whole stand still thing (since again, the value is trapping your opponent, not necessarily in what happens before that). Heck, if the ring was an arcane bond and got sunderedseparated, then that would further complicate concentration checks.
Your attempts at weaseling out of this have made you rather vurnerable.....
All I can say is I hope they enjoy destroying their loot. And Sunder isn't an option against creatures who use natural weapons or unarmed strikes for attacks. Also, if the spellcaster is truly smart and prepared enough, that Fighter would never have a chance to break the items in the first place. For example, Emergency Force Sphere is an extremely powerful and useful low level spell, the same as Freedom of Movement. Going to try and hit me? Okay, destroy this 20 Hardness, 10 HP/CL barrier first, while all of your attacks deal half damage to it, then we talk, got it? And the fact it's an Immediate Action makes it great to bait out the BSF, to fry him like an egg and serve him with the bacon that is his other buddies. I'm not including Improved Invisibility, Displacement, Mirror Images, etc. which would simply make the BSF waste his time as he turns into a burnt husk, wondering what's happening. And that's just the lower level spells. Any of the Prismatic spells would make the BSF fall flat on his face, or become a stone statue for the spellcaster to decorate his demiplane with.
Besides, if the Ring of Freedom is an Arcane Bond, they won't get the magical effects of that ring; it would essentially be a pretty ring that will sell for maybe 200 gold tops. It's also not going to be something he will wear on a belt, especially if it's his Arcane Bond.
On top of this, you're simply assuming that encounters consist of nothing but solo spellcasters. You think those spellcasters can't summon bodies to intercede any Martial, or have Martials of their own to fight with? You think that, instead of it being a spellcaster, it's a demon with SLA's? Or a Dragon who can cast spells? I'd like to see the Martial sunder an item the Dragon has with its insane CMD.
The only Martial who should specialize in Sunder is a Barbarian with the Spell Sunder Rage Power. With Rage Cycling and the high requirements (CMD + 10) to destroy a spell effect, they're doing a job better than any other Sunder specialist can, and they don't even destroy the loot they get from encounters. Anyone else is just asking for trouble from both the party and their WBL.
You could cleave, vital strike, do a maneuver, trip, or sunder. Sure the later options involve feats to get good at but you can always get lucky with the dice.
Regular Cleave feat is only good until you hit level 6. Cleave suffers from being able to make only one attack per creature, when several dire situations call for making several attacks on a single creature. In addition, any enemy worth its salt would know not to set itself up for stuff like that.
Vital Strike is vastly inefficient unless you have Colossal+ sized damage dice in the form of D8's. Even then, it is at best an equal playing field. The only way this tactic works is in a Mythic Rules table.
Trip runs into size issues, the same as Vital Strike. If you aren't big enough, the maneuver is just flat out useless.
Sunder runs into the issue of destroying equipment you would otherwise get from the target if you simply did a full attack. Even so, unless you're a Barbarian with Spell Sunder, you aren't doing the party or yourself any favors by Sundering. It's more of a GM's "I hate you and your items, I want to get rid of them" tool.
The only maneuver that comes close to being effective in all forms of combat is Dirty Tricks, and that's because you can inflict all sorts of conditions, like Blinded, Confused, Dazed, Staggered, etc. and it can be done as part of the Full Attack you would normally do with the right feats. Problem is, the pre-reqs for the feat chain(s) is ridiculous high, and anyone who claims to be a Martial wouldn't be effective at anything else if they tried to go this route.
And provoking AoO's only leads to you getting hurt for a very minor gain.
All I can say is I hope they enjoy destroying their loot. And Sunder isn't an option against creatures who use natural weapons or unarmed strikes for attacks. Also, if the spellcaster is truly smart and prepared enough, that Fighter would never have a chance to break the items in the first place. For example, Emergency Force Sphere is an extremely powerful and useful low level spell, the same as Freedom of Movement. Going to try and hit me? Okay, destroy this 20 Hardness, 10 HP/CL barrier first, while all of your attacks deal half damage to it, then we talk, got it? And the fact it's an Immediate Action makes it great to bait out the BSF, to fry him like an egg and serve him with the bacon that is his other buddies. I'm not including Improved Invisibility, Displacement, Mirror Images, etc. which would simply make the BSF waste his time as he turns into a burnt husk, wondering what's happening. And that's just the lower level spells. Any of the Prismatic spells would make the BSF fall flat on his face, or become a stone statue for the spellcaster to decorate his demiplane with.
Besides, if the Ring of Freedom...
All I am bringing up is the fact that you sound like you build your enemies like they were monty haul PCs (tricked out to the gills with the best stuff all the time). After 12 rings of freedom, there starts to be a point where they say 'skip it, just kill him'. And if it comes to that point, where it is just a glorified diamond for their purposes...is it really a part of their WBL? And if that is their standard operating procedure, then isn't it the GM's responsibility to adjust so people could actually enjoy the game?
Overall-I would not like to have you as a GM. You sound like you want to win, and the unlimited resources of the position would go to your head. The defensive and long nature of your double posts generally support this assumption.
All I can say is I hope they enjoy destroying their loot. And Sunder isn't an option against creatures who use natural weapons or unarmed strikes for attacks. Also, if the spellcaster is truly smart and prepared enough, that Fighter would never have a chance to break the items in the first place. For example, Emergency Force Sphere is an extremely powerful and useful low level spell, the same as Freedom of Movement. Going to try and hit me? Okay, destroy this 20 Hardness, 10 HP/CL barrier first, while all of your attacks deal half damage to it, then we talk, got it? And the fact it's an Immediate Action makes it great to bait out the BSF, to fry him like an egg and serve him with the bacon that is his other buddies. I'm not including Improved Invisibility, Displacement, Mirror Images, etc. which would simply make the BSF waste his time as he turns into a burnt husk, wondering what's happening. And that's just the lower level spells. Any of the Prismatic spells would make the BSF fall flat on his face, or become a stone statue for the spellcaster to decorate his demiplane with.
Besides, if the Ring of Freedom...
All I am bringing up is the fact that you sound like you build your enemies like they were monty haul PCs (tricked out to the gills with the best stuff all the time). After 12 rings of freedom, there starts to be a point where they say 'skip it, just kill him'. And if it comes to that point, where it is just a glorified diamond for their purposes...is it really a part of their WBL? And if that is their standard operating procedure, then isn't it the GM's responsibility to adjust so people could actually enjoy the game?
Overall-I would not like to have you as a GM. You sound like you want to win, and the unlimited resources of the position would go to your head. The defensive and long nature of your double posts generally support this assumption.
Just because I tell things how they are means I'm a bad GM who only thinks about winning? The mechanics are what they are; as a GM, I can choose to either follow those mechanics and expect the PCs to do the same, or make up my own rules and hope the PCs will still play my modified version of the game. By RAW, if Freedom of Movement is what it takes to automatically bypass subjects like Stand Still feat and Grapple, then so be it. And that's just assuming that enemies get the chance to do those.
I'd also be in the same shoes as the Wizard: If I'm some 20 Intelligence goober, I'm not going to sit there and let them win. They're PCs in a dangerous environment going up against the most deadliest threat the (game) world has ever faced; a spellcasting Wizard, who is protected by Martial mooks so Mr. Wizard can do the cool stuff without having the action economy spit in his face.
As a GM, I could just as easily make up some stupid crap for the wizard BBEG and get the same desired effect, because Rule 0. It's the same logic that backs the "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies" argument, which you seem to think I would try to throw. But we're arguing by-the-book mechanics, which, as I've said, Wizards can easily obtain, because Wizards have access to every option possible. It's that simple, and the fact you're so opposed to it only tells me you have a problem with the mechanics, not with the people who simply use them to their advantage; which, guess what, both the GM and the PCs do. If anything, I'd be more restrictive of my NPCs than any PFS GM in terms of mechanics.
I'll point out that these same arguments I've made as a GM to NPC works both ways because of that distinction. These options are available to PCs too, and as I've said previously, the (N)PC is only shorting themselves by not covering that base, as there are characters and creatures who invest in those sorts of offenses, and do their damnedest to ensure their tactics work. It's not like PCs are the only ones who can Grapple or Sunder; but if you just want NPCs to pick their nose when they can't simply make attacks, then be my guest.
You think spending money or resources on a Ring of Freedom really the smartest way to spend WBL? All I stated was a potential means to bypass such subjects, and a method to make it common without granting them to the PCs; I believe that's all you asked of me, actually. There are better things to buy with the money that would go into that ring, and for cheaper. A Wizard who's optimized enough probably wouldn't need a Ring of Freedom, though if the situation calls for it, it's not difficult for them to get one...
Full attack with a ranged weapon, I guess. I mean, melee-focused characters can still carry bows or slings or whatever.
