[Tripod Machine] Warlock Unbound, an informal survey

[RJGrady]

I was hoping to get a little pre-release feedback from you gentle folk. Are you a fan of the 3.5 warlock, or saw unrealized potential in it? If so,

1. What did you like most about it?
2. Least?
3. What do you consider essential to capture its essence?
4. What would you be looking for in a Pathfinder class along those lines? Is there any kind of oomph you would like to see?
5. Thoughts on the Pathfinder sorcerer, witch, and other classes with regard to the warlock archetype?

[vectorious]

Some quick thoughts:

I liked the concept - at will vs limited times per day

Could do with a little more to do, vs blasting every round

I would like concepts apart from the dark compact idea - different power sources etc

It would need sprucing up as 10d6/round at level 20 does not do much compared to other classes in PF

Probably separate out the blast shapes, blast effects and non-blast related powers.

There are plenty of versions out there already - the Ethermancer from interjection games, the Invoker from Little Red Goblin, and various homebrew ones from the boards, not to mention whatever Strange Brew, currently in Kickstarter does with the idea.

What would yours do that these have not done?

Ideas I would like to see - multiple blasts/turn (maybe per attack?), walls of eldritch fire, minor summoning or maybe illusion, perhaps more self status effects - like the one already existing to turning into bats, short range teleport. This takes it close to sorcerer territory, but I think it could be different

[RJGrady]

Here's how the current version is shaping up.
-First of all, sticking pretty close to the original 3.5 concept, but the implementation changing in whatever ways it needs to.
-Specifically, I want to keep the blast as a signature part of the class.
-Avoid lots of weird new rules about how their powers work; load up on spell-like abilities and supernatural powers.
- Mimic a lot of the powers from the sorcerer, witch, wizard, and oracle classes, but moving toward unlimited or less limited uses whenever possible
- 3/4 BAB, reasonable bard-like melee options
- Make the warlock pact central to their motif, but not restricting their power choices too much
- Building popular prestige options into the class as base class options
- Low mechanical complexity

The Ethermancer looks like a very different kind of beast, esoteric and complex. The invoker description (I am not that familiar with that iteration) describes banes and boons.

This version does use the pact heavily in the backstory, but the emphasis is on unfettered power. Other spellcasters have to husband their powers in different ways, but this class isn't a classic spellcaster. They're more like an umbral superhero, hurling energy blasts, calling up darkness, and acquiring weird supernatural powers. I have some ideas about balance, like the idea that if a power shows up one level later than a sorcerer can do it multiple times, and two levels later than a wizard can a limited number of times, then in most cases, unlimited use is okay at that level. When something is mostly limited by when you might deploy it, like invisibility, the duration gets reduced.

[SagaRPG]

When I think back to that time in 3.5, it seems that a lot of casters were heading for the "ultra-specialized" character type: Warmage, Warlock, Shadowcasters, Binders, Truenamers, etc. I think they were made by WOTC to be narrow of purpose but strong in power for that purpose. In the case of the warlock he got to blast stuff like a superhero every round, and also throw some "themed" magic into the mix, but not at an effective enough level to unbalance a party. I know some people I play with how loved the simplicity of blasting stuff every round and not having to think a lot about strategy or tactics in battle. There was really only one thing they could do. I think if you can give options on making a warlock really good at doing one thing with his blast, but maybe change-up what that "one thing" is for players you might have an interesting concept. Look forward to seeing how it turns out. I liked what you did with the Corbie.

[vectorious]

Some decent melee options would be good, and your description sounds interesting. I would like to see what your balance approach does to a class. Oddly may make a better spell caster in a low magic campaigns as the access a couple of levels later could make it less game breaking.

The ethermancer is a spell point system with regeneration, and is a little over complex

The Invoker is a much more straight forward class with the blast with blast traits and at will incantations that are basically spells at will, although often with long casting times. Lacks obvious melee options. DOes have different pact types with different bonuses, akin to Sorcerer bloodlines

[Xris Robin]

RJGrady wrote:

I was hoping to get a little pre-release feedback from you gentle folk. Are you a fan of the 3.5 warlock, or saw unrealized potential in it? If so,

1. What did you like most about it?
2. Least?
3. What do you consider essential to capture its essence?
4. What would you be looking for in a Pathfinder class along those lines? Is there any kind of oomph you would like to see?
5. Thoughts on the Pathfinder sorcerer, witch, and other classes with regard to the warlock archetype?

1: At-will magic.

2: How boring Eldritch Blast was.
3: At-will magic.
4: At-will magic.
5: No.

[Shadow_Charlatan]

One of my favorite conversions for the warlock is in The Flying Pincusion's Into The Breach:The Oracle, at each level it allows you to select a revelation from any oracle mystery, it's not At-will but the warlock does have the ability to regain expended revelations.

With even just the Paizo published revelations, it gives a huge amount of customization for different abilities and styles of warlocks

[SagaRPG]

Where is the balance for At-will magic going to come from? If the spell-like or supernatural abilities can be done every round, without worrying about resources, the only thing stopping the Warlock from using his best ability every round is the situation. If at-will spell-like abilities is the way you are leaning, are you going to balance it with a very limited scope or very limited power?

[Lord Mhoram]

1. What did you like most about it?
At will magic, especially the blast. Having a mage type with a magical attack every round is something I really enjoy.

2. Least?
The you are evil/chaotic/bargained with dark powers. The idea of a Lawful Good Warlock who's Eldritch Blast would channel the powers of heaven is something I'd like to play (I've done it with GMs that don't hold to the dark tone of the original warlock)

3. What do you consider essential to capture its essence?
The at will magic, and some look at the "so full of magic you can't contain it" or the "pacting" I just don't want alignment/tone to come into it - choices for the whole spectrum. Although both of those approaches are there in the Sorcerer and Witch.

4. What would you be looking for in a Pathfinder class along those lines? Is there any kind of oomph you would like to see?
At will blasts. At will magic. Basically an "easy to play" mage type that appeals to the type of player who likes to play a fighter with "I hit it again" and uses class abilities for upping numbers and likes basic gameplay.

5. Thoughts on the Pathfinder sorcerer, witch, and other classes with regard to the warlock archetype?
See above.

Also an Iconic that doesn't look like Crais from Farscape.

Crais

Warlock

[The NPC]

Warlock is my very favoritist class from 3.5.

1. The at will stuff. Also the fact you could use the resistances, DR, and invocation choices to build playable monsters or something close to it. For instance I used warlock and the Otherworldy feat from Forgotten Realms to make a half-demon. Another time I used the class and the half-ogre race to make an ogre mage. I also used it to make particular character types as well. Again using invocation selection and without using prestige classes for example The Arachnomancer, A Words of Creation User (using the sound and word themed invocations), an Explorer/Crypt Breaker, and some super hero archtypes.

Because the main offensive ability was usually the same a number of people would say the class was boring but there was a lot you could do with it that most people didn't give it credit for.

2. The fact you didn't get Detect Magic until second level, but that was mostly after the transition to Pathfinder. A few more cantrips would have been good.

3. The at will stuff and the other-worldliness. I also concur with the suffused with magic motif.

4. Scale the resistances to class levels and into an immunity at some point. The option to choose what your DR is against. A few more cantrips and at least detect magic at 1st level. A 20th level capstone is definitely needed.

Also, Mythic support.

If you can incorporate The Acolyte of the Skin (in particular), The Green Star Adept, and some other transformational prestige options into it I would give you five different kinds of hugs.

5. None at this time

[Luthorne]

RJGrady wrote:

1. What did you like most about it?

I liked having at-will abilities, and in particular a number of interesting and unique abilities, like being crawling eye or dark discorporation that didn't directly emulate spells, or ones that provided the benefits of multiple spells or tweaked the way existing spells worked in thematic ways.

RJGrady wrote:

2. Least?

I thought the fast healing ability was pretty lame by the time you got it, and the initial alignment restrictions I felt were annoying and overly restrictive to your chosen flavor. Similarly, many of the abilities had flavor related to darkness and evil, and while I don't mind that as an option, it is a bit annoying being shoehorned into it, especially when Ultimate Magic offered the eldarin and slaad as possibilities.

RJGrady wrote:

3. What do you consider essential to capture its essence?

Obviously, at-will magical abilities, as well as lots of options dripping in flavor.

RJGrady wrote:

4. What would you be looking for in a Pathfinder class along those lines? Is there any kind of oomph you would like to see?

Well, one of the big things about Pathfinder classes is they almost always involve a lot more choices about class options...barbarian rage powers, sorcerer bloodlines, and so on and so forth. I would expect a fair bit of choice when fleshing things out, likely due to the source of the pact. Of course, it's hard to go wrong there, given how many of the warlock's abilities were based off their invocations, so given how few they got, it definitely defined the way they played.

The other thing I might consider are some low-level abilities that may or may not be unlimited, to provide more versatility at low levels...or perhaps cantrip-like effects or somesuch. I remember at low levels with a warlock, the limits on what you could do were pretty painful, since you basically had eldritch blast and a single trick for awhile. Probably not too helpful, though, since you'd have to figure out how to balance it, either making something at least initially not at-will (which could certainly irritate some fans), or just making the effects minor enough...either way, just something to spice up low level play in some way would definitely be something I would like to see, but I'd understand if it might be tough to tackle in a balanced fashion.

Also, definitely a capstone.

RJGrady wrote:

5. Thoughts on the Pathfinder sorcerer, witch, and other classes with regard to the warlock archetype?

I guess they do have some of the same degree of flavor, sorcerers having magic stemming from an often inhuman source and a lot of magic, while witches have their power stemming from a pact, as well as getting hexes that are often in a limited way at-will. In some ways, a warlock is almost a super-sorcerer...even more limited in terms of scope, but able to toss out as much as they like.

Witch patrons are also extremely lacking in flavor, which disappoints me...Strange Brew's warlock preview looks to have a much more robust patron system, which I quite like. So, if you can leave the patron or force or whatever grants them their power open enough for creative players, but with enough flavorful abilities without infringing on the player's creativity, that would definitely be good. Tough to tackle, though! Also, tangentially, I'd like to see dragon-related options...dragonfire adept was also a class I liked a lot from 3.5 (while despairing at the lack of explanation for where its abilities were supposed to stem from), so if you could make a warlock it's possible to build in a draconic fashion with a draconic source of power, I personally think that would be great. Or at least an archetype.

Hope this helps and isn't overly rambly...

Edit: And I just noticed this thread hasn't been posted in for over two months...and that I was five pages back when I meant to be on the front page. D'oh!