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Warning: Not one of KC's intentionally stupid threads. May be stupid anyways. Viewer discretion is advised.
So, war.
What is it good for?
A whole lot, I'd say. At least for those who aren't fighting it.
Let's say that Group A (100 soldiers) and Group B (80 soldiers) are fighting. Group A wins. Group B flees, losing three-quarters its men before eluding its pursuers.
What happens to the fallen guys' stuff? Does wartime have special consequences for stuff lossage? Obviously, many players will only bring their threaded items. But what about those who brought extra supplies? That's sixty soldiers dead, and it's likely a fair few of them packed a few expendable items. Well, Group A claims that stuff, naturally. They killed the dudes, they get the loot.
But what if they aren't the only guys on the field that day? Because Group C has been hanging back the whole time. Group C is a lootgrabbing company, and now, the vultures swoop in to peck at the dead. Group A may not be strong enough to pick another fight so soon after the previous battle, or maybe they just can't afford to make another enemy when they're still at war with Group B.
So Group C starts cleaning out the carrion. They might have to fight with other profiteers—small-time bandits, or the original owners returned by Pharasma to reclaim what's "theirs". But you have what you hold, and Group C is usually able to take down such petty challengers for their petty corpserobbing. Besides, any soldiers from Group B might have Group A to worry about.
Group C takes what it can, retreating if attacked by any meaningful force, and falls back to its patron settlement to wait for the next big battle.
Thoughts? Would this be viable as a Chartered Company model sometime after OE?
To make this clear, Group C leaves the bodies of Group A soldiers well enough alone. They're not stealing from anyone strong enough to immediately go after them. These are vultures, not eagles, and they don't pick any fights they can't easily win.
I suppose a large part of this would depend on how easy it is to find out where all the action on the map is currently at.
I'm thinking Group C (C can stand for Carrion! Or Corpse. Or Cadaver. Or Corvid...) might have informants/scouts. They might make deals with members of sides known to be at war, too.
I'm sure the big battles won't be that hard to find out about—at least in time to show up after. And hey, if Group C has been so troublesome people are going to lengths to hide their battles from the public, that's enhancing the flavor, and they've done something right. The flavor is really what attracts me to this concept. War profiteers are the one group that hasn't been really represented by CCs so far, not counting mercenaries.
I'm particularly interested to hear what veterans of similar games have to say. Does this sort of thing ever happen in other MMOs?
Well, somebody's gonna Tweet about it. Battles are hard to keep hush-hush because they're all so goshdarned exciting. ;)
I'd like to make it a reference to those creepy-as-hell vultures from Snow White, but they don't have names. :|
They could also just call themselves "Murder". It's a reference to crows, but it's also a hard name to forget.
Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, the ability to get to the battle site quick enough depends on a lot of unknowns: travel time for your group and their groups, duration of a typical formation combat, how long people will usually stick around after a big fight, etc. So at the moment we can't really say how hard or easy that will be, and how much planning needs to go into the intel-gathering portion.
I guess I'm assuming battles will take some time, yeah. I think that's part of the reason I'm putting this idea in the OE—to let a few battles get fought, let people claim their territories, and to see how battles tend to work.
Right now, it's just an idea. But since there's no way I can afford or justify the EE purchase, I'll have a lot of time to wait and see. Who knows? Maybe I can repurpose Grickin for this.
Thoughts are still welcome, of course—particularly from people who run warlike companies. How would you handle a group like this? They're basically extra-craven cautious bandits. Would you declare war? Try to hire or recruit them? Chase them off when they show up? Or just ignore them and let them loot your dead foes, while claiming the main prizes for yourself?
And C stands for Criminal, too, and I think we've been told that stealing loot from someone else's kill is a globally Criminal act (So both group A and B can attack without Rep losses, regardless of whose corpses you're looting). Not saying the idea isn't sound, but you might want to start the group at Chaotic.
This is fully the plan. They're scum, yeah, but C also stands for Careful, Canny and Cwick-on-their-feet.* They will be very cautious about who they trust, and always refrain from robbing pals of their patron settlement to ensure they always have a home to go back to. Also, regular bonus tributes (or free mercenary work when there're no major wars on) might be in order. Keep your patron happy, kids.
*It does not actually stand for this. Don't get held back in kindergarten on account of me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Should be a fun niche to fill, if you can carve out said niche in a skillful manner. It's hard to say what the general public's reaction would be: I assume most people would be either annoyed that you're effectively large-scale ninja looting, or annoyed that you're taking their stuff (even if the stuff would have been taken already by group A), so that neither side of the conflict welcomes you and you end up enemy to all. I make this assumption because people tend to be very possessive of their stuff, and won't want you to have any of it.
I'm quite sure they'll end up being put to flight fairly frequently. But, like vultures, they always come back.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Group C would have to be quite large. During the battle, those who have fallen will be making their way back to the battle site. So by the time Group B has lost, reinforcements from both sides will be showing up trying to loot the bodies.
Group A will have survivors that will be looting before the fight is officially over. In fact, it won't be uncommon for a defeated character, regardless of side, to be looted the moment they die so that the looter can either claim items for their own or destroy the looted gear so that there is nothing to come back to.
I honestly don't think there would be much, if anything, for Group C to loot from corpses. Fun idea though. If they were going to really pull it off they would need to be dodging in and out of the fights as they were going on, looting bodies as they drop and running back out of harms way.
If Group B folk arrive, they have Group A folk to contend with. I'm not too worried about them.
Mid-battle loots are a good point, though. I could see Group C running in during the battle, if it does become an issue (though it does make them a bit more vulnerable to attacks).
Also, corpselooting isn't all they'd do. They'd also do normal bandit/mercwork when there're no battles going on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think a lot depends on how cumbersome looting will be. They could make looting painful, where you have to click items separately from a list, carefully watching your encumbrance bar, or they could implement something automated like a button that sais "loot everything until right before getting encumbered".
They could add delays to such automated looting or add a lot of toggles as to which items should be looted automatically(loot crafting ingredients first, or highest value, or lightest items).
If this is an easy process, I think bodies will be looted almost as soon as they are fallen. But it is easy to tweak this by adding delays in the looting process itself, even if it is automated. I assume that your buddies can loot your corpse too, not just the victor, so that would imply some interesting "corpse-fights". However, a feature like, "you can not loot this body because you are still in combat" could come into play here too. If they would do that, then most looting would indeed find place after the battle is over.
It would also depend on how long the corpse stays available and when the corpse opens up for everyone instead of just the killer(s).
Overall, I think the implications of a third party waiting to swoop in and scavenge are fun (as you describe in your OP) and I would expect GW to not try to stifle such gameplay but rather facilitate it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's weird that the only person that is almost never serious on these forums can make the only thread with serious, friendly discussion.
So I'd just like to ask a a few questions:
How does alignment factor into all this?
Can we attempt to define all the specific cases that will be considered griefing by one or more persons on this forum?
How does the performance of groups A, B, and C in the Land Rush affect this situation?
Is <forum personality> in any of these groups?
Discuss.
Thanks, Kakafika, but I think there's plenty of serious, friendly discussion. It's just that there are too many threads right now formed in somewhat unfriendly spirit. :P
Overall, I think the implications of a third party waiting to swoop in and scavenge are fun (as you describe in your OP) and I would expect GW to not try to stifle such gameplay but rather facilitate it.
Note that the scavengers could also be hired to leave alone and protect some people's bodies, just like the UNC can be hired to leave alone and protect some merchants.
I hope that GW will see the merits in this plan and try to make a place for it.
How does alignment factor into all this?
The group is almost certainly Chaotic. I doubt lootgrabbing will be Evil.
Can we attempt to define all the specific cases that will be considered griefing by one or more persons on this forum?
Honestly, I don't think there's much place to grief here. They're just doing a job. I mean, they wouldn't be dicks about it or anything, but I think the worst thing they could do would be to start harassing smaller battles between newbier players. An unfair fight is one thing, but an unfair fight right after winning a tough battle is enough to ruin someone's experience.
But even that's a bit tenuous. If someone more strict about their griefing definitions could weigh in on what they'd find unacceptable, it'd be appreciated.
How does the performance of groups A, B, and C in the Land Rush affect this situation?
Well, they're joining in OE, so...hey...
Is <forum personality> in any of these groups?
Wait a second!
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Why would the scavengers wait until after the battle to start? I suspect that in addition to the parties fighting over the territory, there will be parties fighting over the dead.
The biggest profit will be among the people who wait outside the warzone and demand a cut from the successful scavengers as they leave- which means that battles might be fought over who controls the exits from the battle, with recursive scavenging from those battles.
If taking their stuff isn't the purpose of the initial battle, becoming distracted by attacking the scavengers puts the primary objective at risk.
I think that Group C would have to be very careful about how it handles particular battles. A "Take Their Stuff" battle doesn't for them work unless the victims win, which might motivate Group C to help wipe out the would-be thieves.
For battles with limited exit points, Group C would have to set up scouts to make sure their escape isn't cut off.
A lot of this will depend on whether there are viable "retreat" tactics in the game. In the middle ages, an army that bolted generally got wiped out, so Group C would have to be smart about it.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Scouts don't make your escape not get cut off; scouts tell you THAT your escape HAS been cut off.
Your best bet at that point is to wait for two groups to fight over who gets to cut you off, and slip out between them.
I also think that individual scavengers will have the same return-on-time as groups; solo scavengers shouldn't fight each other, because if they win they are probably weak enough for the next one to finish off.
Scouts tell them somebody's moving in, and give them a chance to move out (or plan for an alternate escape route).
If this group gets big enough, they would be able to take down lesser scavengers without a problem. Since I'm envisioning it being a proper CC, it would take something fairly substantial to put them to flight. Once there is a genuine threat, though, they'd definitely fly off.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This actually sounds like a fun "game" some of the Stone Bear Clan might have to try if they come upon a fight. Like tag, but not. Just run around the fighters trying not to get hit while waiting for one to drop then dive in and out while attempting to loot the body. The one who comes away with the best stuff wins and dying is an auto forfeit. XD
Obviously not as common practice but it could be entertaining one day.
Hmm, gives me the idea that I might be able to come up with various "games" for members to consider playing instead of just all out fighting when they come across a group of strangers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This actually sounds like a fun "game" some of the Stone Bear Clan might have to try if they come upon a fight. Like tag, but not. Just run around the fighters trying not to get hit while waiting for one to drop then dive in and out while attempting to loot the body. The one who comes away with the best stuff wins and dying is an auto forfeit. XD
Obviously not as common practice but it could be entertaining one day.
Hmm, gives me the idea that I might be able to come up with various "games" for members to consider playing instead of just all out fighting when they come across a group of strangers.
How messed up would it be to be in the middle of a fight for your life and suddenly a group of barbarians show up and start dancing around you and your enemy waiting for one of you to fall?
I am in full support of this idea. I hope that there is a /dance emote in the game so that I can literally dance around the people fighting.
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Hm...
Group C/The Third Party
The Murder
Vulture Culture
The Buzzardblood Company
The Craven Company (Craven Graven?)
The Graverobbers' Guild
A key here is to ensure that graverobbing is both profitable and fun. So, it needs to be viable, but it also needs to be fairly challenging. We are basically hijacking the work of both bandits and merchants, doing little work fighting and no work creating. As such, graverobbing needs to present its own unique problems.
The main flaws in the profession that I see are:
- Low profit (all you get are a few consumables per body)
- Unreliable (you have to track down battles)
The strengths:
- Quick and fun (the "dancing barbarians" idea is an example of the potential fun, and this doesn't take very long compared to fighting in a battle)
I predict graverobbing will be most fun as a "thematic" focus and actual sideventure to this group's primary moneymaker, mercenary work—maybe with a focus on "fitting" jobs like retrieving the loot on people's husks for them.
Potential consequences of graverobbing being a major part of gameplay:
- People will bring fewer consumables and use them more readily, knowing they are quite likely to lose them on death.
- Graverobbers will become very unpopular IC and potentially disliked or even regarded as griefers OOC.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I were in Group A, Group B's corpses are my spoils of war. If Group C started looting them I would attack them immediately with out hesitation. If we happpened to be out numbered it would not be forgotten.
That said I see No reason why Group C couldnt just come in a kill group A in the situation described in the OP and loot all the bodys. You would make enemies with either action IMO. I just think the idea will not be funtional if the intention is for group C to not piss off Group A.
An important distinction is that the buzzards will approach merchant vs. bandit fights with caution. In such scenarios, we'll generally take the merchants' side out of simple practicality—the merchants are probably okay with losing such limited loot. The bandits, on the other hand, will fight us to the last snatched copper piece.
Group C does not count on not pissing off anyone except its own settlement. But if you want to take a timeout in the middle of a fierce battle to pick a fight with a vulture, well, the vulture will just fly away and settle back down later. You, on the other hand, have just put your side in even greater danger by abandoning the real conflict.