What would be a good choice to multiclass a Sohei Monk into after 6 or 8 levels of monk.
I'm thinking of either a fighter or a ranger, the idea would be to create a mostly ranged monk archer but one that can be also a switch hitter at later levels, with lvl 6 weapon training choice as bow.
But I am also considering of taking some mounted combat feats while leveling as a monk and at later levels something from the multiclass to make him somewhat decent in melee combat as well.
If the weapon training gained from fighter levels would also give the option to flurry with the chosen weapon group, then I think the choice would be obviously fighter.
Otherwise I am not sure how to make the monk into something like: Mainly Archer, Secondly Switch Hitter. Any advise or suggestions?
All advise is appreciated. Thanks!
weapon master fighter...
take EWP Firearms and rapid reload, buy a pistol and alchemical cartridges...
at 3rd level take weapon training in firearms...
now you can flurry at range against touch AC (using most of the same feats you already bought for archery), and you can hold onto your bow for enemies that are to far away for your gun
although, the horse master/monastic mount combo is pretty nice too.
If you are going to add mounted combat, I would suggest a Cavalier with the Luring archetype. 4 levels will qualify you for the Horse Master feat that will let you use your character level for your Mount, and Far challenge is great for a switch hitter.
That seems like a great choice, if I specialise in combat with a mount, but how would it work without mounted combat? I'm just wondering since it seems to leave much to be desired without a mount or should one just stay as an archer then?
weapon master fighter...
take EWP Firearms and rapid reload, buy a pistol and alchemical cartridges...
at 3rd level take weapon training in firearms...
now you can flurry at range against touch AC (using most of the same feats you already bought for archery), and you can hold onto your bow for enemies that are to far away for your gunalthough, the horse master/monastic mount combo is pretty nice too.
Ah! Forgot to mention that no guns in the campaign I would play, the world lacks gunpowder. Otherwise a great idea, sorry!
I was thinking of a build that goes something like this:
20 point buy Human
Str: 14
De: 14+2(race)
Co: 14
Wi: 14
Int: 10
Ch: 7
Sohei Monk levels 1-6, Luring Cavalier levels 7-11
1: PBS, mounted combat (m), Precise shot , Devoted Guardian, IUS
2: Mounted Archery, Evasion
3: Rapid Shot, Maneuver training
4: Monastic Mount, Ki Weapon
5: Deadly Aim
6: Mounted Skirmisher , Weapon training (bows)
7: ?
8: -
9: Clustered Shots
10: -
11: Horse Master
Are you set on being focused on Archery?
Im not sure the Luring Cavalier is needed if you are going to focus so much on Archery. Yes those 4 levels will get you an AC, but if you're always at range then the AC won't be attacking, or being that useful. The best that can be said for having the AC is it will have the saves and HP to survive AE damage spells.
The Sohei really shines in Mounted combat. I would focus on using a Lance and picking up all the awesome Mounted combat feats(due to monk bonus feats skipping feat requirements) that normal characters don't have access to until later.
For a character straight focused on Archery there are better options for the lower levels. The Sohei Archery doesn't really hit full stride until level 15.
5 levels of trench fighter, pick guns as your weapon group.
Flurry with sawed off double barrel shotgun.
Mentioned before, can't use guns or gunpowder in this campaign so gunslinger and all gun archetypes are unavailable.
umm, just out of curiosity... if you want to make a ranged monk who can switch-hit later, why not just make a zen archer? they can flurry with a bow at first level and get extra bonus feats like weapon specialization (instead of mount related abilities that it sounds like you won't really use). plus the zen archer's unarmed damage still increases so there's built in switch-hitting?
if you're worried about that possibly being a little bit of a one-trick pony you could always dip 1-2 levels of empyreal sorcerer and add some arcane archer levels?
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umm, just out of curiosity... if you want to make a ranged monk who can switch-hit later, why not just make a zen archer? they can flurry with a bow at first level and get extra bonus feats like weapon specialization (instead of mount related abilities that it sounds like you won't really use). plus the zen archer's unarmed damage still increases so there's built in switch-hitting?
Plus the fact that Zen Archers get Point Blank master at level 3, so there is no need to switch hit as they can just shoot in melee if needed.
Soheis are a great class, but they are behind almost every other class as archers until 15th level.
Are you set on being focused on Archery?
Im not sure the Luring Cavalier is needed if you are going to focus so much on Archery. Yes those 4 levels will get you an AC, but if you're always at range then the AC won't be attacking are being that useful. The best that can be said for having the AC is it will have the saves and HP to survive AE damage spells.
The Sohei really shines in Mounted combat. I would focus on using a Lance and picking up all the awesome Mounted combat feats(due to monk bonus feats skipping feat requirements) that normal characters don't have access to until later.
For a character straight focused on Archery there are better options for the lower levels. The Sohei Archery doesn't really hit full stride until level 15.
Pretty much set on being archery focused, yeah would use the AC in this case to avoid dying to magic or other ranged attacks, would be really lame when your horse dies to the first enemy attack.
But mostly I'm thinking of using archery because it can do really good even if no mounted combat, since can't always be using that mount really.Or do you have suggestions what to do when not in mounted combat?
Hmm yeah I know a lance Sohei can be a terror to behold, not a rage pounce lance barbarian terror but still strong in it's own ways.
Why doesn't sohei archer do good until level 15? Do you mean that Zen archer is way better before lvl 15 compared to Sohei or?
I'm not trying to beat the zen archer, but trying to make a good DPR monk that is mainly a ranged combatant and later on can use melee weapons as well.
I'm not trying to beat the zen archer, but trying to make a good DPR monk that is mainly a ranged combatant and later on can use melee weapons as well.
Well the ZenArcher is your best bet. He doesnt need to use Melee weapons as he can shoot while in hand to hand starting at level 3.
The reason the Sohei doesn't catch up until level 15 is the number of feats needed to be good at archery. They key feats at the end of his career that he would be getting is:
11-Cluster Shots
13-Point Blank Master
15-Improved Precise Shot
At level 15, I Think the Archer Sohei can pump out far more damage than any class save a fighter. Even then I think he would be competitive with a bunch of class features to boot.
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Soehi is behind the Zen Archer until high level for quite a few reasons. They don't have access to all the bonus Archery Feats that a ZA gets, they cannot take improved precise shot until 15th level which is huge, and the ability to take Manyshot/Rapid Shot on a flurry is too likely to miss until then.
The best plus a low level Sohei has for archery is the mount, but they don't actually have a mount class feature, so you need either the 4 level cavalier dip, or three feats for nature soul/animal ally/boon companion to have a mount that wont die the first time you get hit with an AoE attack.
I'm not trying to beat the zen archer, but trying to make a good DPR monk that is mainly a ranged combatant and later on can use melee weapons as well.Well the ZenArcher is your best bet. He doesnt need to use Melee weapons as he can shoot while in hand to hand starting at level 3.
The reason the Sohei doesn't catch up until level 15 is the number of feats needed to be good at archery. They key feats at the end of his career that he would be getting is:
11-Cluster Shots
13-Point Blank Master
15-Improved Precise ShotAt level 15, I Think the Archer Sohei can pump out far more damage than any class save a fighter. Even then I think he would be competitive with a bunch of class features to boot.
Hmm maybe then I should go aim for the Zen Archer, I just well would have liked a monk that uses both melee and ranged weapons, but yeah Zen Archer can use a bow propably even with his feet.
Do you have any suggestions for a zen archer's ''must have'' feat choices at which lvls?
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I'm not trying to beat the zen archer, but trying to make a good DPR monk that is mainly a ranged combatant and later on can use melee weapons as well.Well the ZenArcher is your best bet. He doesnt need to use Melee weapons as he can shoot while in hand to hand starting at level 3.
The reason the Sohei doesn't catch up until level 15 is the number of feats needed to be good at archery. They key feats at the end of his career that he would be getting is:
11-Cluster Shots
13-Point Blank Master
15-Improved Precise ShotAt level 15, I Think the Archer Sohei can pump out far more damage than any class save a fighter. Even then I think he would be competitive with a bunch of class features to boot.
Hmm maybe then I should go aim for the Zen Archer, I just well would have liked a monk that uses both melee and ranged weapons, but yeah Zen Archer can use a bow propably even with his feet.
Do you have any suggestions for a zen archer's ''must have'' feat choices at which lvls?
The great thing about ZA is that the must haves are pretty much granted automatically. You need Precise Shot at 1 and Improved Precise Strike at 6 for your bonus feats. Other than that, try to fit in Clustered Shots somewhere.
Going to cut and paste a Zen Archer I made using the DPR olympic rules:
STR: 14 (+2)
DEX: 12 (+1)
CON: 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 level)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 belt)
CHA: 8 (-1)
Saving Throws
Fort: +11 Ref: +12 Will: +15
AC: 21 - Touch 18, Flatfooted 14 (+10 base, +2 Armor, +6 WIS bonus, +1 dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection)
Attacks: C.Longbow +17, 1d8+7 dmg (19-20/x3)
Flurry&DA +15/+15/+10/+10, 1d8+13 dmg (19-20/x3)
With Ki/haste +16/+16/+16/+11/+11, 1d8+13 dmg (19-20/x3)
Class Abilities:
Flurry of Blows
Perfect Stike (replace Stunning Fist)
Way of the Bow (Replaces Evasion)
Fast Movement
Zen Archery (replaces Maneuver Training)
Ki Pool (11 points)
Barkskin (replace Slow Fall)
High Jump or Acrobatic Step
Ki Arrows (replaces Purity of Body)
Wholeness of Body
Reflexive Shot (replaces Improved Evasion)
BAB: +7 CMB: +12 CMD: 25
Feats:
1st: Toughness
Human: Improved Initiative
Monk 1st: Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk 1st: Perfect Strike (bow, special)
Monk 1st: Precise Shot
Monk 2nd: Weapon Focus (longbow)
Monk 2nd: Point Blank Shot
Monk 3rd: Point Blank Master
3rd: Deadly Aim
5th: Defensive Combat Training
Monk 6th: Specialization (longbow)
Monk 6th: Improved Precise Shot
7th: Lighting Reflexes
9th: Clustered Shots
Monk 10th: Improved Critical (longbow)
Skills (5 per level):
Max Perception
Max Acrobatics
Max Sense Motive
Max Stealth
Sprinkle last ranks out
Gear:
+3 Composite Longbow (+2str)
Headband of +4 WIS
Boots of Speed
Cloak of Resistance +2
Bracers of AC +2 (or Shirt +2 if GM allows you to enchant clothes)
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Ring of Protection +1
Handy Haversack
1400 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.
His attack routine is:
Flurry, Hasted, Deadly Aim while burning Ki point = +16/+16/+16/+11/+11, 1d8+13 dmg (19-20/x3)
His average damage per round is 67.37.
His Human and level one feats can be replaced for flavor. Also his 5th and 7th feats are not necessary. Granted, they are shoring up his largest weakness (being grappled and Reflex save). Also, he has no traits, so thats a bonus right there.
EDIT: yea what Imbicatus said is fairly accurate. Also, the Advice forum has a guide on zen archers.
EDIT2:Also, Note the amulet of Natural Armor is not really needed as he would have Barkskin from Quiggong monk. Still I thought most characters would have found one and its better to save ki points for attacking.
Zen archers are proficient with longbows, shortbows, composite longbows, and composite shortbows in addition to their normal weapon proficiencies.
if you prefer to use weapons instead of unarmed strikes, a ZA can do that... but, as others have pointed out, there isn't much point since you can just stand adjacent to your target and use your bow. the only thing you're missing then compared to a melee weapon is threatening, but you get most of the necessary feats as bonus feats so that means you can afford to spend feats on the snap shot line- couple those with combat reflexes and you'll be getting tons of AoOs!
edit: i like humans a lot, but faultspawn tieflings and plumekith aasimar both have killer stats for a ZA and good SLAs.
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You don't even need to take Snap Shot, as you threaten for free at 9th level with Reflexive Shot. You only need Snap Shot if you want to increase the threatened range.
Also since an Unarmed strike doesn't need hands, you are threatening with an unarmed strike even before you get Reflexive Shot/Snap Shot.
yes, a ZA always threaten at 5' (with kicks/headbutts/etc) so snap shot is just a feat tax to take improved snap shot so that you threaten within 15'- which is super awesome, and actually worth wasting a feat for (though, if this is a home game, some GMs may let you count reflexive shot as snap shot for the purpose of qualifying)
The general sense I have received about switch hitting is that the melee portion should be handled with a two-hander and Power Attack, for a total investment of one feat. Someone upthread mentioned Empyreal Sorcerer/ Arcane Archer. What if you tried something like this:
Zen Archer 8: get your second flurry attack (losing only the -10 attack granted at level 15), weapon specialization, many archery feats, etc. During this time, you can take power attack and, using the decent strength you should have as an archer (plus true strike from Qinggong monk? Eh?), do two-handed power attacks with melee weapons (long spear, temple sword, etc.)
Sorcerer 1-2: so that you can take ...
Arcane Archer X: full BAB, so now your melee attack bonus (6 + AA level) equals your bow flurrying AB (8 - 2 + AA level). Bonuses to archery, and you can continue to take feats to shore up melee or give flavor. AA gets all martial weapons, so you can upgrade to a keen nodachi or katana (two-handed as martial), a falchion, a polearm, etc.
Alternatively! After ZA 8, perhaps Horizon Walker? You might even want to do rogue or ninja 2 at some point for the terrain mastery rogue talent trick; then, once you enter HW, all of your terrain/ favored enemy bonuses apply to both ranged and melee. Depending on how cheesy you consider it, a wand of Instant Enemy means you can smack anyone with your lovely, stacked favored terrain bonus as a favored enemy bonus.
The general sense I have received about switch hitting is that the melee portion should be handled with a two-hander and Power Attack, for a total investment of one feat.
Switch hitter is someone that can fire arrows, then is effective melee combatant after bad guys close. This typically means one or two rounds of range then they go melee. Genearlly its better to be focused on melee. Ranger excel at this cause for two feats (bonus style feats at 2 and 6) they get Precise and Improved Precise shot.
Someone upthread mentioned Empyreal Sorcerer/ Arcane Archer. What if you tried something like this:Zen Archer 8: get your second flurry attack (losing only the -10 attack granted at level 15), weapon specialization, many archery feats, etc. During this time, you can take power attack and, using the decent strength you should have as an archer (plus true strike from Qinggong monk? Eh?), do two-handed power attacks with melee weapons (long spear, temple sword, etc.)
Sorcerer 1-2: so that you can take ...
Arcane Archer X: full BAB, so now your melee attack bonus (6 + AA level) equals your bow flurrying AB (8 - 2 + AA level). Bonuses to archery, and you can continue to take feats to shore up melee or give flavor. AA gets all martial weapons, so you can upgrade to a keen nodachi or katana (two-handed as martial), a falchion, a polearm, etc.Alternatively! After ZA 8, perhaps Horizon Walker? You might even want to do rogue or ninja 2 at some point for the terrain mastery rogue talent trick; then, once you enter HW, all of your terrain/ favored enemy bonuses apply to both ranged and melee. Depending on how cheesy you consider it, a wand of Instant Enemy means you can smack anyone with your lovely, stacked favored terrain bonus as a favored enemy bonus.
This is great in theory crafting but in excution I dont think it comes together quite so nicely. Are you focusing on being a caster? Archery? both equally?