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Soooo... my GM hits me with the Nightmare Spell through an unsettling set of circumstances and he says the save is a Will at -10. This nerfed my Wizard exclusively in last night's session. Perturbed I realized that he was wrong after looking up the spell once I got home. I will step back a moment to describe what happened. The GM is running The Shattered Star AP and the group is all over the board with it. Really no structure to the campaign despite the GM owning the books, so a lot of sandbox play. We HAD three shards of the sihedron but that changed when a certain powerful creature, who had polymorphed into a woman, cornered my character and took a shard through deception. Here's the problem: we're level 12 with the Scylla on our ship in the form of a woman, my character knew something was up and went to speak with her because after casting Detect Magic she had potent magic which registered 'non-discernable' after at least two rounds of concentration. After entering the chamber she closes the door telekinetically behind me and through the subtle force of 'you won't get out of this room alive without a kiss' I acquiesced and kissed her. I was immediately Power Word Stunned, Teleported to Windsong Abbey, stripped of the Shard of Gluttony, and instantly Teleported back to the ship with the woman nowhere in sight. I also lost all memory of what happened (Mind Blanked). The group of course is distressed that we have to chase down the shard again. But also with her kiss comes the Nightmare spell. So many rules broken it seems (even with Contingency it's at least four extra spells in one round and I was not a willing target of the Teleport, let alone the SR my character has not coming into play at all, etc.) and I'm not quite sure what to do. My character is fun to play but we have to track down the Scylla, destroy it, and get the shard back for the spell to break. I am within two steps of just creating a new character so I can play in the game because a Wizard is just an NPC if he or she can't prepare and cast spells. The Scylla is beyond our group's capacity to combat. The purpose of my question is to give validity that his nerf gun is OP and retraction of the Nightmare spell could be in order, unless of course he wants me to create a new character which is lame. Questions, comments, ideas welcome. Thanks!
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Don't play with him as a DM. It sounds like he wants to have a PC after some DM burnout. Force him to be a player like everyone else and find a replacement DM. Retcon that session out of existence.
Have a talk with the other PCs, possibly over pizza, see if you can come to an agreement re: the above, and then chat with your DM, possibly also over some pizza if it's worth saving some for him. If he won't cooperate, leave.
Talk with him about it. That might go some distance. Explain you feel pretty cheated and that its hard to play the game this way and its not fun for you. No point in playing a game where your not having fun.
Can't beat GM fiat, but it sucks to be a victim of it. You might not want to play with someone who actively uses it to get his way.
Wait until a big boss battle and destroy the party, then teleport away.
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Thanks for the responses everyone. I really appreciate your responses as it gives different views from each person. Yes I felt cheated and I sent a personal email on our Obsidian Portal Campaign page so I'm waiting to see if we can work it out. GM fiat is cool if it bends the rules a little but this might have been abuse of that.
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Make sure he doesn't see it coming. His surprise, backpedalling and "buwuh, no uh" retconning are what will bring you satisfying pleasure and vindication.
Alright, advice is nice and all, but real talk for a second? Do not listen to this, this is terrible advice that will just end with people angry and generally douchier than before.
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I'm going to take the wait and see approach on this. If he's unwilling to work with me as a player I may end up leaving the group. I really would hate to do that as it's a good group with most of the people as my friends. Although I don't really enjoy over-ruling a GM, I guess I have to be more aware of rule content when someone is getting the shortest straw. The play of our group is fast and loose but when five spells are unleashed in one round it becomes a matter of ethics. I'm a newer player to Pathfinder and maybe because of player inexperience he might not expect recourse but at the same time I don't want this to happen again to another player, hence I've brought it to the community for advice. Thanks Green Smashomancer.
At some point during your conversation with the GM, I suggest asking how Scylla was able to do a bunch of things it isn't capable of. Out of all the things you mentioned, power word stun is the only spell on its list.
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Have you really read Nightmare?
* It can in fact impose a -10 penalty to your save, if the caster has a body sample. Since the bad girl got into your room, maybe she got some hair from your brush.
* Nightmare only lasts for one night, after which you need to cast it again and you can counter it again with Dispel Evil.
The mind blank thing is a little weird.
In general through, you should consider that the GM is under no obligation to follow the adventure as written (unless this is a PFS context).
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No PFS context, but with so many spells in one round cast by the Scylla it seems a little broken. Even with Contingency and maybe another ability there would be potentially three spells in one round. I hope to resolve this with the GM and lose the whole Nightmare thing. I also understand he's under no obligation to run the AP as written.
If the GM has fiated away the mechanics and essentially said "You lose." regardless of what we consider a GMs obligations to be, I'd say find a new DM. As you point out, if he's done it once, he's likely to do it again. Save yourself the frustration.
PFS or not, there's a certain social contract in a gaming group. Such things like following the rules, or stating a houserule when it differs from published stuff, or making sure everyone has fun and is free to enjoy the game, fall under this social contract. I'd say what the DM did here, with 4 spells bypassing saves and SR contrary to the rules, and spells doing things completely opposite of what they're supposed to do, falls under a violation of that contract.
What's to stop the DM from declaring Fireball now sets you on fire when you cast it because it literally turns you into a ball of fire? Or that Acid Arrow throws 1d8 acid damage as a ranged attack? Or that Fly turns you into a small buzzing insect?
Not PFS =/= Anarchy.
The GM can't break rules, but his rulings are singling you out unfairly. That should be addressed. Ask him why he is running it that way. If it was a mistake he may fix it, if the reason is not to your liking, you may want to stop playing in his world.
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No PFS context, but with so many spells in one round cast by the Scylla it seems a little broken. Even with Contingency and maybe another ability there would be potentially three spells in one round. I hope to resolve this with the GM and lose the whole Nightmare thing. I also understand he's under no obligation to run the AP as written.
Given that once he hits you with the stun he has between 1d4 and 4d4 rounds of stun to mess with you, how certain are you that all of this got resolved in a single round? It sounds like he simply described what happened at that point.
Modify Memory could remove your memories, as could any number of old 3.5 spells (mindrape comes to mind).
Sounds like you should talk to your GM, and not listen to people here who weren't at the table and who are, frankly, giving you bad advice.
yeah... that GM sucks... sounds like one of my old DMs that fiated that a Bearded Devil beat a Cleric that cast Shapechange... and then proceeded to hit me for 75 damage....
Oha nd I was a Invunerable Rager Barb with DR 10/-...
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Are you sure it all was supposed to happen in one round.
The GM might have thought "Ok, you're stunned, so you're helpless and I got a few turns to have fun with you".
Well problem with that is, that Stunned condition does not mean helpless. Nor does helpless mean "willing" or "fails all saving throws".
So that's the first problem.
Second issue is that Teleport requires you to be willing. Stunned does not make you willing. Technically even unconscious wouldn't make you willing I believe, though that's possibly a bit of a gray area.
But it says quite clearly it only works on "touched objects or other touched willing creatures". Willing is the keyword there. Nowhere does it mention any special rules for unwilling creatures, so the spell simply fails.
Then of course there's the fact that Nightmare doesn't work that way.
It's a 10 minute cast time for one.
Contingency does not work to shorten the casttime, as it must be a personal spell.
It has a Will save (which you get even when stunned).
It has SR.
It lasts for 24 hours and not forever.
The -10 however could work, the kiss and resulting exchange of bodily fluids could count as "body part".
But seeing how much else was wrong with the entire encounter, that last part doesn't make things right.
I would mention that list of everything that was wrong with it to the GM and straight out ask, what the hell was going on there.
Sounds a lot like the GM is trying to make the adventure a bit more dramatic and the conflict personal. Not necessarily a bad thing, even if it does take some rule bending/breaking, but the way it was done here seems clumsy and heavy-handed. The GM essentially forced the desired resolution without any opportunity to derail the NPCs plans. On top of that, seems to have gimped your character permanently. Chasing down the scylla thief and getting revenge on her could be fun for the group but having your character be useless until that point equals no fun for you. Talk to the GM he obviously has some plan for the scylla which could be good and it sounds like you enjoy the group so roll with it but yeah your character needs a way back in the fight (i.e. restore your character's abilities). Give the GM some constructive criticism suggesting this was heavy handed and hopefully they'll avoid it in the future but give the GM some slack it sounds like he was trying to up the drama in the story and Shattered Star could use it.
Unconscious does make you "willing". Not even remotely a grey area, that's an explicit rule. But note that "sleeping" is not "unconscious".
Ah yes, you're correct. But that same paragraph in the magic rules also explicitely states that stunned, paralized etc, does not make you automatically willing.
And since the OP was stunned, that's really all that matters.
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Thanks again for everyone's advice. Maybe the encounter happened over several rounds but the GM said these things happened instantly. The Power Word Stun for a few rounds to steal the shard and possibly kill me outright would have been more acceptable than the current situation as it stands. The Scylla could have teleported my dead body away and that would have been that. New character time. But the manipulation and breaking of rules for dramatic fashion leaves the structure of the game marred. I will speak with him privately and if it doesn't work I may end up leaving the group.
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Sounds like your GM has fallen prey to the story trap and is misunderstanding his role. The GM does not control the story and attempts to do so will result in things like this occurring. This is not a novel or tale, RPGs are their own medium. The role of the GM is to create, control and adjudicate the setting, and allow the story to develop from the choices of the characters.
The GM's job is to create exciting and evocative settings, not control the story because the GM lacks something that authors have, total narrative control. The players have narrative control over their characters and thus the GM must allow the characters to utilize their agency within the setting so that the story can be created from this interaction. The GM puts interesting setting elements into play which the characters then get to make interesting decisions about how they act towards them. This interaction is what gives rise to the story, no one controls it, it is cooperatively created at the game table.
Any time the GM finds themselves tempted to force a prescribed outcome they are straying outside the role as GM. The GM should focus on the setting and make it as interesting, exciting and adventure worthy as they can. Fill it with interesting situations, people and events that the characters get to make decisions about how to interact with and let that be the story. Don't try to tell a story to your players, they aren't interested if they were they would read a book or watch a movie, instead create a story with your players and you will have an endless supply of fun and you will all tell stories about the great game sessions you had together.
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as could any number of old 3.5 spells (mindrape comes to mind).Nitpick: Mindrape is from 3.0, and was never updated to 3.5.
Complete Arcane does have "Programmed Amnesia" which does almost the same thing as mindrape but lacks the [Evil] descriptor for some reason.
I am guessing the thought being you could use it on an evil character to make them good. Arguably, robbing someone of free will is evil no matter who they are, but the nature of D&D/Pathfinder spells is that anything that can relate to a good alignment cannot have an "Evil" descriptor.
the nature of D&D/Pathfinder spells is that anything that can relate to a good alignment cannot have an "Evil" descriptor.
Except infernal healing.
Before you listen to the PFS "omg ur DM sux and hatez you" police, this sounds like a common device by old school DMs.
The game wasn't in PFS, no one said because PFS told me or that they had to police a PFS policy. There is no collective of PFS police people that want you to do it the PFS way.
Would I use this?
Might be appropriate to ask "Should I do this?" It takes away a lot of free will and choice from the player and is very heavy handed.
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Players need to relax and have fun with the game. The precise rules used don't really matter, it's just as heavy handed to have a DC 50 monstrous dominate/whatever save come down against you as it is to have your character co-opted.
Talking with the GM is the best way to make sure that boundaries are being pushed instead of violated.
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I spoke with the GM and he said the 'Nightmare' had to be 'cured' through a 'higher source'. It sounds like divine intervention to me. While this sounds enticing to me as a player I don't know how long my character will be out of commission. That irks me a little, but he also said I could use a 'temporary character' which allows me to keep playing in the group. While I enjoy playing my Wizard I enjoy the company of the people I game with more. So a solution has been found, albeit intervention of the divine variety is necessary to use my Wizard, at least I get to play. Thanks again for all the advice/suggestions to my dilemma and hopefully this thread might help other players who might suffer something similar in their game.
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Players need to relax and have fun with the game. The precise rules used don't really matter, it's just as heavy handed to have a DC 50 monstrous dominate/whatever save come down against you as it is to have your character co-opted.
Talking with the GM is the best way to make sure that boundaries are being pushed instead of violated.
I agree with this. The best thing you can do is talk to your GM and tell him that you are questioning the rules around what happened. Ask him to recheck what occurred and if he come back that everything happened as he described, then roll with it.
If you don't trust that your GM is running the game in the best interest of all the players, you will have these 'non fun' moments...and there will be more as the game goes on. Have you considered that he may be not telling you the whole story because your character may not be able to KNOW the whole story.
When I started my game, I told my players that my role would be that of an adjudicator and story teller. I told them that I would do my best to go by the rules honestly and fairly. I told them that there would be times when I would go outside the rules for the purpose of the game. I also told them that there would be times when I would just flat out lie for the purpose of the story. Lastly, I told them that if they ever felt that the game was becoming Player vs GM that something was very wrong and they should bring it up right away.
Give your GM the benefit of the doubt and talk to him about it.
Man up and go recover the shard :-)
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First: use spoilers when speaking of an AP.
Then:
The whole teleport away, teleport back think seem a bit strange and unnecessary.
What I notice is that some spell was used to wipe your memory and that nightmare is a bard spell.
Read this spell:
Modify Memory
School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level bard 4
Casting Time 1 round; see text
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one living creature
Duration permanent
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yesYou reach into the subject's mind and modify as many as 5 minutes of its memories in one of the following ways.
• Eliminate all memory of an event the subject actually experienced. This spell cannot negate charm, geas/quest, suggestion, or similar spells.
• Allow the subject to recall with perfect clarity an event it actually experienced.
• Change the details of an event the subject actually experienced.
• Implant a memory of an event the subject never experienced.Casting the spell takes 1 round. If the subject fails to save, you proceed with the spell by spending as much as 5 minutes (a period of time equal to the amount of memory you want to modify) visualizing the memory you wish to modify in the subject. If your concentration is disturbed before the visualization is complete, or if the subject is ever beyond the spell's range during this time, the spell is lost.
A modified memory does not necessarily affect the subject's actions, particularly if it contradicts the creature's natural inclinations. An illogical modified memory is dismissed by the creature as a bad dream, too much wine, or another similar excuse.
To me it sound as the creature that messed with you modified your memory. Maybe the GM is simply "clever" and is giving you false information to have you better play the part of the guy that has lost his memory or whose recall of the events was changed.
Nightmare: it is not a spell that is cast now for then, you cast it while the target is sleeping and give him a nightmare with all the consequences.
So the creature didn't cast it during your encounter, it did cast it when you did go to sleep and it can do that again every night, if you don't find a way to stop it. Probably it has taken a lock of your hairs and can give you the -10 to the will St almost forever.
All considered I suspect you have meet a powerful bard, not the creature you think to have meet.
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I spoke with the GM and he said the 'Nightmare' had to be 'cured' through a 'higher source'. It sounds like divine intervention to me. While this sounds enticing to me as a player I don't know how long my character will be out of commission. That irks me a little, but he also said I could use a 'temporary character' which allows me to keep playing in the group. While I enjoy playing my Wizard I enjoy the company of the people I game with more. So a solution has been found, albeit intervention of the divine variety is necessary to use my Wizard, at least I get to play. Thanks again for all the advice/suggestions to my dilemma and hopefully this thread might help other players who might suffer something similar in their game.
Well, dispel evil is a spell that come from a "higher source". Or maybe it is something more complicated. You are playing with artifacts after all.
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Oh by the way to Gm's out there. If you want to screw with your spellcaster players in humorous ways or for some reason feel like tacking on a negative to wizards that seem overpowered, have a look at the complete book of wizards from AD&D by TSR and check out the section on illnesses that only effect spellcasters, due to side effects of them bending reality to their will. Much more fun and interesting than just throttling them down with -10 to a save permanently or making them pretty much unplayable by taking away their ability to cast spells.
No old material needed: spellblights.
Seems to me that your GM is just cheating. I've dealt with cheater GMs a lot over the years.
One key thing to do is really take note of everything they do and use it as precedent to do the same thing with certain spells. If they call you on it, just point out that in them using it that way, they are showing you that is how it is supposed to work.
There is also just calling them out on it but that doesn't tend to go over well.
They may argue that story trumps rules, and that's fine, but that should not be used to essentially screw over or hijack a player character. The rule is that whatever negative fate happens to a PC should be the result of their own actions. If you did nothing to bring this on, the GM is just screwing with you and taking away the character you wanted to use. When this happened to me, I just outright retired the character and made a new one. When the GM asked me why I did that and how it ruins his game, I point out that no GM can make a player play a character they are not able to have fun with due to too much tampering. It gets to a point where you have to ask yourself if this is still your character, or just the GM's tool that they are letting you use.
Oh by the way to Gm's out there. If you want to screw with your spellcaster players in humorous ways or for some reason feel like tacking on a negative to wizards that seem overpowered, have a look at the complete book of wizards from AD&D by TSR and check out the section on illnesses that only effect spellcasters, due to side effects of them bending reality to their will. Much more fun and interesting than just throttling them down with -10 to a save permanently or making them pretty much unplayable by taking away their ability to cast spells.
Not sure how useful any of this information will be as I am half asleep and typing at 3:15 AM after planning the game of Paranoia I run on Fridays.
Wrong. The DM cannot 'cheat', because the DM can make, change and ignore the rules as he or she pleases. Even beyond that, the DM can create entities within the rules with power that exceeds your own by several orders of magnitude.
The bad situation you describe is not 'cheating'. It's a bad situation, and caused by poor DMing, but when you sit down at a table, you are essentially trusting someone to use their absolute power to provide you with a fun time. They may abuse that trust, they may deviate from the baseline of expectations so far as to be a different game entirely for all intents and purposes, but they can't cheat.
On the other hand, I agree that it tends to be a bad idea to simply take away a player's character for an extended period of time. And I feel there is a difference when a player knowingly risks that (like with a Deck of Many Things) and when a player inadvertently incurs that (like insulting a powerful archmage/demon lord in disguise.)