Wazat, I am still not sure what your goal is.
Lets look at the AA abilities:
Enhance Arrows (1) does nothing that a +1 bow doesn't already do.
Enhance Arrows (3) adds 3.5average damage to your attacks. Ok, but not great. Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training would probably do better since they are not tied to an energy type.
Enhance Arrows (5) gives you distance, an ability that is almost never used.
Enhance Arrows (7) gives you bonus energy damage on a critical hit. Also rarely used because bows have such a narrow threat range.
Enhance Arrows (9) gives you an average of 7 damage to your attacks IF the creature happens to be the alignment type you selected against that day (great in a primarily anti-evil campaign).
Summary of Enhance Arrows: meh since you have to choose the energy and alignment types at the start of the day and you may run into creatures where the elemental damage wont work (likely at higher levels) or the alignment may not work.
Other special AA abilities:
Imbue Arrow: Place an area spell upon an arrow and drop it elsewhere. This is a highly versatile ability if used properly but I do not see a Bard using it as effectively as Wizards or Sorcerers.
Seeker or Phase Arrow: Both of these are excellent abilities but of limited uses per day. Some elements can be replaced by Improved Precise Shot.
Hail of Arrows: another excellent ability but an area attack spell can perform similarly.
Arrow of Death: sounds cool in theory but in practice the DC is too easy. By this time you will be facing a minimum of CR 17 creatures and you probably wont have that high a charisma score (unless Sorcerer or Bard). According to Bestiary Table 1-1 a creature with a good Fort save will have a bonus of +20 while a bad Fort save will be +15 bonus. With a DC 25 (assuming a +5 charisma) it may not be that effective.
I am not saying do not do this, I am just showing how some of these abilities are not that shiny and you should plan accordingly.
Now, the decision of Bard vs Sorcerer vs Wizard.
Since you are slaving your spells to the AA that really means: what can you deliver with Imbue Arrow that is interesting?
Answer: Area spells, something the Bard is not really known for.
Spell Save DCs: The bard is already hurting in this department due to being a mid-spell progression class. The AA puts that even further behind (4 levels behind if you take one fighter level).
As a result you will want to focus on spells which have partial effects if the target saves.
Again, the Bard is not known for partial effects while many Sorc/Wiz spells do have partial effects on a successful save.
Bards have many abilities that will not progress with AA while Wizards or Sorcerer's special abilities failing to progress wont be as big a deal.
In short, when I asked what your goal is this is the stuff I am thinking about.
So again, what do you want to accomplish?
Do you want to deliver spells via the bow that can affect the battle?
Do you want to use archery as your primary focus and spells as an afterthought only?
Do you have an alternate focus not otherwise mentioned?
When you answer what elements of your build are the focus people can better help. :)
Ah, I understand now. Here's what I'm up against.
I pursued AA specifically because of its ability to deal bonus elemental and holy damage as an archer. We're fighting a lot of creatures with DR and other protections, especially demons, daemons and devils etc. Also, GM is ban-happy. Good stuff like Clustered Shots gets banned in an instant. Any stat-on-a-stick (headband of intellect etc) and flaming sword type items are banned or hard to obtain. It's going to be tough.
Plus, our last campaign with this GM taught me to never, ever again play a melee class, since it often feels like every enemy flies, has a climb speed of 80 in the treetops, teleports, slows the party, or otherwise outpaces all melee units who try to engage on foot. I spent all my time as a melee fighter running around at top speed and not engaging anything.
We've tried being mounted, but the GM keeps making us lose our mounts (usually through story events that are outside our control). Ultimately it comes down to being either a caster or an archer, which are the two types of character who were able to consistently participate in the previous campaign. I feel sorry for our Barbarian and Paladin...
With Arcane Archer, I basically sought to be reasonably competent at both archery (which is repeatable so long as I have arrows) and magic (which widens my options and enhances the archery). I'm a decent caster in that I can use helpful spells to enhance allies and myself, and I'm a good archer who is always able to contribute in combat and deal out the hurt. I'm currently playing a wizard-fighter (1 level of wizard) who casts abundant ammo, but I'd prefer to be charisma-based since for baffling reasons I always end up playing the party face (I currently have -2 to charisma skills). Also, spontaneous casters are treated better by arcane archer (gaining new spells) and they don't rely on carrying a spellbook that might be vulnerable to loss. I'm just waiting for that to happen...
Bard also has many party-helping effects that won't be severely impeded by a lowered caster level (inspire courage, party-assist spells like Heroism, etc). I'm not sure whether that's better or worse than sorcerer. Bard also offers lots of fun stuff out of combat.
To more directly answer your three "do you want..." questions:
1) Yes, to some degree. I want to be able to, say, fire a sound burst from long range (though the stun DC will be poor, sadly), or have an arrow blast out a Darkness aura around the target, inhibiting its and its allies' vision for a turn while we deal with a different group.
I also want to be able to attach elemental and holy effects to my arrows, which may help a lot in this campaign because we don't expect to ever have equipment which does that.
2) Yes. I'm primarily an archer who casts the occasional spell or effect (bard performance, abundant ammo), not a caster who might fire the odd arrow. I imagine myself casting a spell and starting bard performance in the first round of combat, then spending the rest of combat shooting feverishly at anything that moves with enhanced and/or imbued arrows.
3) Dealing with DR is always going to be a challenge in this campaign, particularly because I'm limited in arrow special materials and feats. The same applies to dealing with creatures with special movement that makes reaching them challenging, and perhaps even creatures with special qualities like ghosts and banshees, etc.
I'd like to be an archer with a wide range of options that don't rely on equipment, as equipment and stuff outside my character is always going to be transient (horses, weapons, armor etc either will never come into our possession, or are very easily taken).
Arcane Archer brings full BAB growth, some spell advancement, enchanted and elemental arrows that are equipment-independent, holy arrows for dealing with evil outsiders, and the ability to occasionally fire a phasing, seeking, or imbued arrow. I basically went looking for a class that's archer friendly, offered useful magic qualities, and didn't ask too much in return (since I'll have most of its requirements already -- point blank shot, precise shot, and weapon focus are not bad, and some spellcasting never hurt anyone).
That said, if AA is not the route to take, I'm all ears. I'm not especially familiar with the options out there. AA requires a lot of investment to get to holy arrows, for example, and I may want to ditch it a lot sooner than that (level 3 or 4, probably). I'm also pretty open on what to use as my base class.
Just be aware that I'm always at the mercy of a GM that explicitly bans stuff like Headband of Intellect, Clustered Shots, etc and soft-bans things like Snap Shot (they're really banned, but he won't *say* they're banned). So I may have to dance around several options until I find one he doesn't find irreconcilably offensive.
Dear lord... the argument over Clustered Shots. And over adamantine arrows. And on and on...
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Yeah... I'm back to find a different game.
That style of GMing isn't inherently badwrongfun, but I know I would have no fun playing in a game like that, and it sounds like you aren't enjoying it much either.
Life is too short to spend precious game time playing in a game that isn't fun because you and the GM want different things.
Wazat,
Energy damage is not going to help much against things resistant/immune to energy damage unless you know in advance what they wont be. You can only set the energy damage once per day and it sounds like your GM may just change the creatures you face to negate your advantage.
Alignment damage is good, but again, your GM may just change the creatures you face to negate the advantage.
Regarding bypassing DR/alignment your party cleric can solve that problem for you by casting Align Weapon on your arrows.
Ultimately, I do not think you can find any solutions here. It is the GM that is the problem, not your build.
An alternate solution is to ramp up your damage so high that DR is not really an issue regardless of what he says.
A Ranger specializing in evil outsiders can deal a lot of damage. A Paladin can bypass all DR of an evil creature and supply his own enhancements. A Fighter has a number of static bonuses that can allow you to punch through DR.
I just think that your solution is not going to be that effective if the GM decides to screw you again. Stick to a base class that raises the damage so high that you punch through anyhow.
I second the idea for being a Paladin, as Smite Evil bypasses DR, you get Full BAB, and if you get the Bonded Weapon Class Feature instead of Bonded Mount, you're less equipment dependent as well. You get divine spellcasting which generally features good buffs.
Mercy/Channel Energy will be useful for your party, and if you get to LV13 as a straight Paladin, you can get Divine Interference which is an awesome feat (so long your DM doesn't ban that too)
The only problem I see is stat distribution, as you'll want DEX & STR for your bow, then WIS & CHA for your Paladin Class Features.
Chooky,
There are no wisdom based Paladin class features.
As for ability scores, the ability score order for an archer-Paladin should be: Dexterity, Charisma, Strength.
I do not see that being any more difficult to achieve than an Arcane Archer which would need Dexterity, Charisma/Intelligence, Strength.
That's a great point, I hadn't taken a paladin archer seriously until now. So a paladin archer with perhaps a level or two of fighter to help with feat starvation, or simply pure paladin.
The main trick will be roleplaying this paladin in any campaign -- lawful good and codes of conduct can be tricky business. I can no longer fill kobolds with arrows on account of they were there... I as a player need to concoct a plausible reason to commit evil in the name of good. ;) Yes I'm an evil player, but I'm playing a lawful good character so all is well!
I kid, I kid. Kinda. maybe...
Stats for Human Paladin (do I need more Charisma?)
Str 14
Con 10
Dex 18
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 14
L1 Point-Blank Shot
L2
L3 Rapid Shot
L4
L5 Precise Shot
L6
L7 Manyshot
L8
L9 Alignment Channel (evil outsider)? Deadly Aim?
L10
L11 Improved Precise Strike
Ouch, 2 skill points per level just like fighter. I had forgotten about that... Looks like Diplomacy and Sense Motive are my best bets, given the character I'll typically play.
Word of Healing and Rewards of Grace might be good, since I'll be occasionally healing but probably separated from the melee characters who need it the most. When I heal as a standard action, a +1 attack bonus on my next turn doesn't hurt. Alignment Channel makes a lot of sense since evil outsiders are core to the campaign and undead are typically on the side of good (long story).
I maybe should drop to 12 Str and 8 Constitution. I can afford the loss of HP and Fortitude because I'm ranged and I enjoy good AC and saves. A bit less composite bow damage may be reasonable since I'm able to smite when it really matters, and I have the bound weapon bonuses. This would get me to:
Str 12
Con 8
Dex 18
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 16
So I'd be a slightly more delicate paladin, but not one that's rushing into melee. Or is that a bad idea?
TBH I'm not very familiar with Paladins, having never played one. I've watched another player do it, but I'm not sure which feats and spells an archer paladin wants most. I'll have to go exploring. Any suggestions?
Thanks!
Channel Energy does not do much damage especially since the DC will not be that great, do not feed that option with Alignment Channel. Take Deadly Aim instead.
I would not take Word of Healing. If you can use the ability you can usually move the 30feet to get to them. I would also not take Reward of Grace since Weapon Focus would be better.
Take Precise Shot before Rapid Shot. Otherwise your feats look good.
Regarding Ability scores, your second set looks good.
Cool. So now I have some fun backup plans in case this character dies (which is possible -- we have no healers, and a piano is better when played so I'm not playing cautious or defensive).
If I leave the game (which is also quite possible), I have new fun characters to try under more favorable circumstances.
Thanks!
Anything you do to be an effective character will be munchkin or overpowered.
You may as well ask the DM to make your character in a way he approves with all of the feats and equipment he approves.
I did. Specifically, I asked him to just build my character to his liking and I would then quietly auto-pilot it through whatever story he wanted to tell. He didn't take that well.
We made some peace after that, but things haven't necessarily gotten better. Remembering that event alone makes me realize I should leave after all... that was a miserable experience. He gave me a pretty mean-spirited dressing-down, describing me as a cheating munchkin because I had bought trip arrows, an adamantine arrow, etc; this coming after he recommended I look into buying some special arrows. And waiting until combat started to inform me... Were that the only incident then I would shrug it off, but this has been going on for a while (it's why the cleric left). I don't think I owe it to the other players to stick around.
If I leave his game he'll try to sabotage the game I'm running by leaving it (we're at 4 players now; if we drop to 3 the group may fall apart). But at this point I'm not willing to put up with more crap just to avoid having my own game end.
He calls you a cheater and gives you a "mean-spirited dressing-down" when you are following the rules and he is randomly banning anything he simply doesn't like? I'd not only leave his game, but kick him from your other games. You don't need to be around people like this. Anyone makes you feel bad about trying to have fun needs to be banned.
That is some truly odd, super passive-aggressive behavior on the GM's part. The thing about telling you to get special arrows, then later during the game session changing his mind and accusing you of being a munchkin reminds me of Lucy pulling the football when Charlie Brown tries to kick it. What a jerk...
You could always try a Myrmidarch (Magus).
They're not generally considered the optimal magus archetype... but they do have options that allow them to do what you seem to want to do. (assuming you play it as intended, the technical RAW of this archetype means that some of its abilities simply cannot function, unless you recognize that they are intended to actually, you know… do stuff)
Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 7
1 Point Blank Shot (Arcane pool, spell combat)
2 (spellstrike)
3 Precise Shot (arcana-arcane accuracy)
4 (Ranged Spellstrike)
5 Weapon Focus, Rapid Shot
6 (weapon training 1 bows)
7 Weapon Specialization (M-3=F, medium armor)
8 (armor training)
9 Snap Shot(arcana-arcane edge)
10 (M=F)
11 Point Blank Master, Combat Reflexes (multi-ranged spellstrike)
12 (weapon training 2)
13 Improved Snap Shot (heavy armor)
14 (armor training 2)
15 Feat (arcana-bane blade)
16 Counterstrike
17 Feat
18 (weapon training 3)
19 Improved Precise Shot (greater spell access)
20 (armor mastery)
The build is a little clunky, again, it isn't considered optimal...
But starting off, you can use your Arcane Pool to temporarily enchant your bow. Can mix it up in melee ok, using spell combat when needed to fight in melee when it comes to it. Though you're better off shooting folk still.
By level 4, things start falling into place a little, and you learn a signature move, the ranged spellstrike. This lets you deliver a ranged touch spell through a ranged attack, basically, you'll cast and then shoot as a free action, dealing arrow+spell damage. Since you got 2nd level spells, admonishing ray or scorching ray are looking pretty good right about now. Assuming a +1 bow at this point, that'd deal 1d8+4d6+4.
By level 8, you’ve upgraded to medium armor, because… because. You also have weapon training with bows, weapon focus, weapon spec, and rapid shot… you’re doing good at this point. Especially given that you can cast 3rd level spells n whatnot too. Your Arcane Pool can up your bow by +2 enhancement, so you’re likely cutting through some DR already.
By 13, things have got downright fun. Your bonuses to damage per arrow have continued to climb, you can add +4 to your bow, and I’d assume by now you have at least a +1, so at a total of +5, DR ain’t even a problem. Or you could be adding all kinds of other enchants instead if you have a higher cost bow already. Your 5th level spells are legit, and when you fire off multi target ray spells, you get to launch each one with an accompanying arrow. You could be in heavy armor, but given the DM’s anti-mithril stance, you’ll likely stick to medium. You bow also threatens out to 15ft, and you have a ton of AoOs to burn, and you don’t provoke for shooting your bow anymore either. You’ve truly come into your own at this point.
Honestly, after 11 everything is just smooth sailing, and if you want, switching to an arcane archer prestige class at that point seems to make a lot of sense. Either path works okay though, as there are still some cool things with the full progression.
The only downsides are that this build is a little feat starved, and of course feat delayed. But it makes up for that with pretty potent application of magic. This isn’t no one level dip of wizard. This is offensive medium caster stuff, that acts as a rider to your normal ranged attacks. DR isn’t going to be an issue for this guy at any point in his career, even in a low magic/low gear campaign, because he can temporarily enchant his own weapon up above simple relevance.
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He calls you a cheater and gives you a "mean-spirited dressing-down" when you are following the rules and he is randomly banning anything he simply doesn't like? I'd not only leave his game, but kick him from your other games. You don't need to be around people like this. Anyone makes you feel bad about trying to have fun needs to be banned.
I agree, this absolutely does not sound like somebody I would want to associate with. Toss an NPC into the game you're running to fill it up while you look for a 4th. This guy sounds like trouble.