My group is very slowly, and cautiously, bringing 3.5 spells over into our PF games.
Recently I asked the group if we could bring Blockade from 3.5 into our games. One of my group members believes it to be overpowered in 3.5, and very much so in PF.
I was wondering what everyone here on the forum thinks. :)
The link to the spell, so as not to break any possible copyright restrictions, is
http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-scoundrel--60/blockade--897/
Is the fact it is a swift action spell too powerful? That it is so heavy and has so many HP? Does the fact it has a range of 0 make a difference?
What kind of conversions should take place to keep it playable and yet fit with PF?
I don't think it's that bad as-is, personally. It has a ton of hit points, but it's also trivially easy to go around unless you plug a doorway with it or something and it only lasts three rounds. It seems like a potentially very interesting utility spell, but with a three-round duration I can't consider it especially powerful.
If it was ported to PF I'd probably add it to the summoner spell list in addition to its 3.5 lists, and possibly the magus spell list as well.
For basic use it is not that bad, but if you have creative players then it might be an issue later one. This one boils down to how good your players are at coming up with ideas.
wraithstrike wrote: For basic use it is not that bad, but if you have creative players then it might be an issue later one. This one boils down to how good your players are at coming up with ideas. I don't know, the thing that strikes me is that while imagination will make it more versatile, it won't make it more powerful as such. Ultimately it lasts for no more than three rounds and can't be used to directly attack - at best you could maybe summon it on the edge of a cliff and shove it over onto someone below, but you could do that just as well with a regular large rock. It's definitely a spell that benefits from creativity, but not to the point where I'd think it's overpowered as a swift action.
If you changed it to a standard action, it'd be if anything underpowered. Maybe as a standard action with a significantly increased duration, but what makes it appealing now is that it's a low cost in both slots and actions for a minor advantage gained. It can disrupt the line of a charge or force someone to move to maintain his line of fire, but it's not going to actually keep anyone from getting to you.
The 3 round limit keeps it in check well. It does a lot for a lvl 1 spell, but the effect is cool and restricted.
We are currently considering the following modifications.
Casting Time : Standard Action
Range : Short
Duration : either 1round/CL or 1round/Cl +1
Hardness : either 5 or 8
HP : either 5/CL or 10/CL
STR check to Move : either 10+CL or 15+CL
I personally do not think any changes are needed, but we are trying to find a good solution that would mnake everybody happy.
What do you think? Do these changes still keep it as a worthwhile first level spell? Does it hang with spells such as Expeditious Excavation, Grease, etc.?
Optimistic Cynic wrote:
What do you think? Do these changes still keep it as a worthwhile first level spell? Does it hang with spells such as Expeditious Excavation, Grease, etc.?
No.
Expeditious Excavation creates a movement barrier that sticks around forever, can be opened directly under someone as an offensive application, and can't be destroyed. It also creates a modest area of concealment for one round - considerably larger than the area of sight-blocking created by the Blockade. Expeditious Excavation isn't the best first-level spell around by a long shot, but your nerfed form of Blockade can't even compare to it.
Grease blocks movement much more effectively over a considerably larger area and can also be used offensively. It does not break line of sight, but again, Blockade only creates a very small blocker for line of sight.
You've extended its duration at higher levels, but shortened it at low levels, and even at mid levels the duration won't be extended by enough for any interesting utility applications. If your version had a significantly longer duration (think minutes) and summoned more blocks as you leveled up it might be interesting to consider, but at that point you've got a very different spell.
Creating a block that makes one space a little harder to get through and can't be used as a direct offensive application is simply not worth a standard action in combat, and your duration is short enough that it's not useful for anything outside of combat.
I had an oracle of heavens with the moonlight bridge mystery use said mystery to trap a flying boss. She placed the bridge next to a wall and a 10ft drop, quite effetive free wall of force.
I'm sorry thoynan, but what are you trying to say? Are you saying that Blockade is too powerful, that the suggested changes nerf it or make it just right?
I'm...I'm not seeing the connection between what you said and what the thread is about. I admit not being familiar with the mysteries you mentioned. My last Oracle had the Stone Mystery.
Don't increase the duration, or you will end up using blocks for everything.
Well, thanks to everybody who posted! I ended up dropping the spell from consideration, as the one player (who hates the idea of bringing 3.5 material into PF) continued to argue the spell was overpowered. In the end he was saying it was an unbeatable battlefield controller, and was comparing it to Walls of Stone and Walls of Force.
Pretty much he, and later at least one other group member who became convinced, grabbed onto the fact that the spell is pretty nice when in a five foot hallway where the enemy has to go over it instead of around it, and held it up as proof of its brokenness.
It came down to "It's a swift action that does not allow a Save that can cause an enemy to lose an action while they attempt a DC 10 climb check to go over it." Oh, and it would keep a door closed. the fact that it provides Total Cover was brought up, and whenever I pointed out you could just walk around it or move to a better position, they ignored it.
In the end we were changing its casting time, range, duration, hardness, hp total, and weight (str dc to move to break). I told them we were essentially creating a new spell, and it no longer resembles the spell o fun that I was looking to convert. I had offered to change the casting time to standard if we moved the range to short, and they took that consession and ran with it.
I may or may not post on the conversions board again. At least two of the players are willing to deny a spell simply because it might be incredibly useful in very specific situations...it just might not be worth to effort to argue with them.
That's too bad. It seems like a really fun spell. Versatile without being mandatory.
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