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Mechagamera |
Mechagamera wrote:Of course, each chunk of Tarrasque would start to regenerate, maybe even faster given that positive material plane is full of life energy. 1 Tarrasque becomes a million T-cells, which quickly become a million Tarrasques, that eventually (probably after causing a lot of trouble) explode (and repeat).
It is a good thing that the borders between the positive energy plane and the prime material planes aren't porous. Oh wait, if that was the case, there wouldn't be any life in the prime material planes, since all that life energy would still be in the positive energy plane. I guess sooner or later, we should expect a couple million Tarrasques to show up some place. Rovagug thanks the PC's for their service.
Pieces that are cut off the Tarrasque do not regenerate, so this wouldn't happen. It'd just survive and get back up.
Pieces of the Tarrasque don't regenerate in the Prime Material because there is insufficient animus, but the positive material plane is nothing but animus, so that limitation seems unlikely to hold.
Critters without regeneration would not be able to benefit since they lack the means to do anything with the animus.
Also, Rovagug's gig is to destroy the universe; why wouldn't he build his primary servant so that it could work in one of the keystone places in the universe?
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![Katapesh Sailor](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/sinbadsailor2.jpg)
Artanthos wrote:With an opponent who is, by RAW, unkillable, imprisonment and relocation are the only two options.True. Barring actually killing it, which is very possible for PCs of, say, 20th level. Or even 17th. Nobody's done it yet, that doesn't mean it's not doable. 9th level spells are really scary if used cleverly.
No, he is unkillable. Even if you cut him into pieces, disintegrate the remains, scatter the dust and burn a wish, he will still reform in 3 rounds. This is an extraordinary ability, and thus functions even in an AMF.
Regeneration (Ex) No form of attack can suppress the tarrasque's regeneration—it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect. If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains. It can be banished or otherwise transported as a means to save a region, but the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered.
Furthermore: relocation IS the recommended means, by RAW, of dealing with the Tarrasque. If the GM is going to rule that relocation is no longer an option, the Tarrasque is simply a plot device. The GM, at that point is responsible for providing a means of resolving his plot.
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Ashiel |
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![Seoni](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/The-pharaoh-1.jpg)
Yeah, but you can kill him. It's been obvious how to kill him for ages.
You slay him. According to his regeneration this kills him but he auto-rezzes in 3 rounds. So in the 3 round window you cast animate dead and turn him into a skeleton or zombie. This changes him into an undead creature and strips him of his special powers, including his super-regeneration. At which point he's no longer a threat and can be slain at your leisure.
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Te'Shen |
![Sky Dragon](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/PZO1120-SkyDragon_90.jpeg)
Yeah, but you can kill him. It's been obvious how to kill him for ages.
You slay him. According to his regeneration this kills him but he auto-rezzes in 3 rounds. So in the 3 round window you cast animate dead and turn him into a skeleton or zombie. This changes him into an undead creature and strips him of his special powers, including his super-regeneration. At which point he's no longer a threat and can be slain at your leisure.
?... !... Oh Holy H@!!. That's brilliant.
I really need to read more.
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Ashiel |
![Seoni](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/The-pharaoh-1.jpg)
Ashiel wrote:Yeah, but you can kill him. It's been obvious how to kill him for ages.
You slay him. According to his regeneration this kills him but he auto-rezzes in 3 rounds. So in the 3 round window you cast animate dead and turn him into a skeleton or zombie. This changes him into an undead creature and strips him of his special powers, including his super-regeneration. At which point he's no longer a threat and can be slain at your leisure.
?... !... Oh Holy H@!!. That's brilliant.
I really need to read more.
Well thank you very much. I posted about this a few years ago, where I explained that even a 20th level Fighter by his lonesome can beat the crap out of the Tarrasque and just have your party cleric or wizard finish it off after the dust has settled. :P
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![Katapesh Sailor](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/sinbadsailor2.jpg)
Yeah, but you can kill him. It's been obvious how to kill him for ages.
You slay him. According to his regeneration this kills him but he auto-rezzes in 3 rounds. So in the 3 round window you cast animate dead and turn him into a skeleton or zombie. This changes him into an undead creature and strips him of his special powers, including his super-regeneration. At which point he's no longer a threat and can be slain at your leisure.
Undeath blocks resurrection.
If the ability restoring the Tarrasque to life was a resurrection effect you would be correct. It is not. It is a regeneration effect that cannot be suppressed. You can reanimate the body, and the Tarrasque's regeneration will still restore the him to life. In the meantime, you would still have a rampaging, uncontrollable, undead Tarrasque.
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Ross Byers RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 |
![Ross Byers](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/private/RossByers.jpg)
It's just one expensive arrow.
Such a device has a pretty good chance of going off when fired. A bow slaps a LOT of acceleration on that arrow. If you make the retaining dowel tough enough to survive launch a 'safe' amount of the time, then there is good chance it won't break when it hits something.
Plus the whole thing where having such a heavy, bulky head on the arrow will completely wreck your aim.
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![Katapesh Sailor](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/sinbadsailor2.jpg)
Ashiel wrote:Yeah, but you can kill him. It's been obvious how to kill him for ages.
You slay him. According to his regeneration this kills him but he auto-rezzes in 3 rounds. So in the 3 round window you cast animate dead and turn him into a skeleton or zombie. This changes him into an undead creature and strips him of his special powers, including his super-regeneration. At which point he's no longer a threat and can be slain at your leisure.
?... !... Oh Holy H@!!. That's brilliant.
I really need to read more.
It is an old argument that mistakenly applies the resurrection rules to a non-magical regeneration effect. Under 3.x rules it may have worked, but under 3.x rules the Tarrasque's regeneration could be suppressed via Wish.
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Rogue Eidolon |
![Lolth](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Spider-queen.jpg)
Ashiel wrote:Yeah, but you can kill him. It's been obvious how to kill him for ages.
You slay him. According to his regeneration this kills him but he auto-rezzes in 3 rounds. So in the 3 round window you cast animate dead and turn him into a skeleton or zombie. This changes him into an undead creature and strips him of his special powers, including his super-regeneration. At which point he's no longer a threat and can be slain at your leisure.
Undeath blocks resurrection.
If the ability restoring the Tarrasque to life was a resurrection effect you would be correct. It is not. It is a regeneration effect that cannot be suppressed. You can reanimate the body, and the Tarrasque's regeneration will still restore the him to life.
Well it blocks raise dead anyway, but you are correct. However, this does mean that an enterprising necromancer who is capable of beating Big T can certainly use him to create lots of skeleton and zombie version of Big T, then multicast the command undead spell to get automatic control of the new far-too-many-HD-to-control-otherwise army.
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ZZTRaider |
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![Ezren](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/PZO9452-Ezren_500.jpeg)
Te'Shen wrote:It is an old argument that mistakenly applies the resurrection rules to a non-magical regeneration effect. Under 3.x rules it may have worked, but under 3.x rules the Tarrasque's regeneration could be suppressed via Wish.Ashiel wrote:Yeah, but you can kill him. It's been obvious how to kill him for ages.
You slay him. According to his regeneration this kills him but he auto-rezzes in 3 rounds. So in the 3 round window you cast animate dead and turn him into a skeleton or zombie. This changes him into an undead creature and strips him of his special powers, including his super-regeneration. At which point he's no longer a threat and can be slain at your leisure.
?... !... Oh Holy H@!!. That's brilliant.
I really need to read more.
I don't think resurrection rules have anything to do with the argument.
According to the Skeleton template, "A skeleton loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks."
Regeneration is an extraordinary special quality, but it does not improve the Tarrasque's melee or ranged attacks; therefore, applying the skeleton template removes Regeneration.
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![Katapesh Sailor](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/sinbadsailor2.jpg)
Artanthos wrote:Well it blocks raise dead anyway, but you are correct. However, this does mean that an enterprising necromancer who is capable of beating Big T can certainly use him to create lots of skeleton and zombie version of Big T, then multicast the command undead spell to get automatic control of the new far-too-many-HD-to-control-otherwise army.Ashiel wrote:Yeah, but you can kill him. It's been obvious how to kill him for ages.
You slay him. According to his regeneration this kills him but he auto-rezzes in 3 rounds. So in the 3 round window you cast animate dead and turn him into a skeleton or zombie. This changes him into an undead creature and strips him of his special powers, including his super-regeneration. At which point he's no longer a threat and can be slain at your leisure.
Undeath blocks resurrection.
If the ability restoring the Tarrasque to life was a resurrection effect you would be correct. It is not. It is a regeneration effect that cannot be suppressed. You can reanimate the body, and the Tarrasque's regeneration will still restore the him to life.
Command Undead won't work on him. He's immune to all mind affecting effects.
Bury him in a room with a permanent AMF and an iron golem ordered to keep attacking him.
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Ross Byers RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 |
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![Ross Byers](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/private/RossByers.jpg)
I think it's easier to read that regeneration ability as meaning he isn't really dead, and it makes the first progress towards getting up after three rounds. Animate dead doesn't work on something that isn't entirely dead.
Alternately, your tarrasque zombie is pretty gnarly, but if it is destroyed, it will get back up again as the real deal in three rounds. Once again, not dead, just restrained. (Though it is neat you can have it do your bidding in the meantime.)
(Skeletons and zombies lose their special abilties, but only while they're still undead. If you smash a human skeleton, then cast resurrection on it, the human gets their class levels and stuff back.)
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Rogue Eidolon |
![Lolth](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Spider-queen.jpg)
I think it's easier to read that regeneration ability as meaning he isn't really dead, and it makes the first progress towards getting up after three rounds. Animate dead doesn't work on something that isn't entirely dead.
Alternately, your tarrasque zombie is pretty gnarly, but if it is destroyed, it will get back up again as the real deal in three rounds. Once again, not dead, just restrained. (Though it is neat you can have it do your bidding in the meantime.)
I'd be down with saying that it's not really dead too. But I think even if it is dead, and even if someone does cast animate dead, then Big T is still going to regen somehow, from some tiny scrap of himself that wasn't part of the zombie/skeleton. Maybe a blood droplet. That's where I got to the thought of multiple undead versions.
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![Katapesh Sailor](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/sinbadsailor2.jpg)
Artanthos wrote:Command Undead won't work on him. He's immune to all mind affecting effects.Command undead tends to work against undead.
Speaking of which, undead under the command to do so would contingue to coup de' grace his corpse over and over wouldn't they?
My solution was similar.
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Mikaze wrote:So he's less force-of-nature/Godzilla now and more of an intentionally malicious creature.I don't think it was ever intended as a Godzilla expy. Pathfinder now has King Mogaru for that.
You realized that the Tarrasque existed in the game for a good 30 years before King Magaru was introduced, right?
I think that the Tarrasque was definately a Godzilla expy. The fact that Paizo now has a Godzilla expy that's a closer copy/paste doesn't change that.
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Rogue Eidolon |
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![Lolth](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Spider-queen.jpg)
MrSin wrote:Most undead are not immune to mind affecting effects. They have a saving throw, which mindless undead automatically fail.Artanthos wrote:Command Undead won't work on him. He's immune to all mind affecting effects.Command undead tends to work against undead.
Actually, command undead isn't a mind-affecting spell. And undead actually are immune to mind-affecting.
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![Katapesh Sailor](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/sinbadsailor2.jpg)
Artanthos wrote:Actually, command undead isn't a mind-affecting spell. And undead actually are immune to mind-affecting.MrSin wrote:Most undead are not immune to mind affecting effects. They have a saving throw, which mindless undead automatically fail.Artanthos wrote:Command Undead won't work on him. He's immune to all mind affecting effects.Command undead tends to work against undead.
Commend Undead is mind affecting, that happens to specifically target undead. It is a case of specific > general.
Unless you can think of something else that, upon a failed will save, magically changes an intelligent creatures viewpoints and allows you to control his control his actions to a substantial degree.
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MrSin |
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![Heretic](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/PZO1124-Heretic_90.jpeg)
And undead actually are immune to mind-affecting.
•Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).
Yep, one of the weird things about being a vampire is your totally coherent, definitely have a mind, throw out mind affecting spells and give orders, and... are totally immune to mind affects, morale, and most illusions. Because... reasons?
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Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal |
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Zaister wrote:Mikaze wrote:So he's less force-of-nature/Godzilla now and more of an intentionally malicious creature.I don't think it was ever intended as a Godzilla expy. Pathfinder now has King Mogaru for that.You realized that the Tarrasque existed in the game for a good 30 years before King Magaru was introduced, right?
I think that the Tarrasque was definately a Godzilla expy. The fact that Paizo now has a Godzilla expy that's a closer copy/paste doesn't change that.
Technically, Godzilla can be considered a Tarrasque expy. The Tarrasque existed in Western mythology long before celluloid.
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Zaister |
You realized that the Tarrasque existed in the game for a good 30 years before King Magaru was introduced, right?
I think that the Tarrasque was definately a Godzilla expy. The fact that Paizo now has a Godzilla expy that's a closer copy/paste doesn't change that.
Yes, I realize that, and I also realize that the tarrasque is based on a creature from a myth from south France. I am quite certain that it was not intended as a Godzilla-like creature by Gary Gygax.
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Rogue Eidolon |
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![Lolth](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Spider-queen.jpg)
Rogue Eidolon wrote:Artanthos wrote:Actually, command undead isn't a mind-affecting spell. And undead actually are immune to mind-affecting.MrSin wrote:Most undead are not immune to mind affecting effects. They have a saving throw, which mindless undead automatically fail.Artanthos wrote:Command Undead won't work on him. He's immune to all mind affecting effects.Command undead tends to work against undead.Commend Undead is mind affecting, that happens to specifically target undead. It is a case of specific > general.
Unless you can think of something else that, upon a failed will save, magically changes an intelligent creatures viewpoints and allows you to control his control his actions to a substantial degree.
It isn't mind-affecting because it doesn't have the [mind-affecting] tag. Some spells do, like most enchantments, and others don't. For instance, instant enemy doesn't have that tag despite being enchantment, likely because it would be odd to be unable to declare undead as an instant enemy.
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andreww |
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Commend Undead is mind affecting, that happens to specifically target undead. It is a case of specific > general.
Unless you can think of something else that, upon a failed will save, magically changes an intelligent creatures viewpoints and allows you to control his control his actions to a substantial degree.
Command Undead is not mind affecting. It would be pretty useless if it was as Undead creatures are all automatically immune to mind affecting abilities.
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Te'Shen |
![Sky Dragon](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/PZO1120-SkyDragon_90.jpeg)
Ashiel wrote:. . .
You slay him. According to his regeneration this kills him but he auto-rezzes in 3 rounds. So in the 3 round window you cast animate dead and turn him into a skeleton or zombie. This changes him into an undead creature and strips him of his special powers, including his super-regeneration. At which point he's no longer a threat and can be slain at your leisure.Undeath blocks resurrection.
If the ability restoring the Tarrasque to life was a resurrection effect you would be correct. It is not. It is a regeneration effect that cannot be suppressed. You can reanimate the body, and the Tarrasque's regeneration will still restore the him to life. In the meantime, you would still have a rampaging, uncontrollable, undead Tarrasque.
In this case, it would also block regeneration, because...
. . . A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability. . . .
unless the tarrasque's specific version of regeneration counters the general rule for regeneration.
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Zaister |
It isn't mind-affecting because it doesn't have the [mind-affecting] tag. Some spells do, like most enchantments, and others don't. For instance, instant enemy doesn't have that tag despite being enchantment, likely because it would be odd to be unable to declare undead as an instant enemy.
Check the Magic chapter for the description of the enchantment school:
Enchantment
Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior.
All enchantments are mind-affecting spells. Two subschools of enchantment spells grant you influence over a subject creature.
I wager any enchantment spell that is missing the mind-affecting descriptor is actually in error.
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Rogue Eidolon |
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Rogue Eidolon wrote:It isn't mind-affecting because it doesn't have the [mind-affecting] tag. Some spells do, like most enchantments, and others don't. For instance, instant enemy doesn't have that tag despite being enchantment, likely because it would be odd to be unable to declare undead as an instant enemy.Check the Magic chapter for the description of the enchantment school:
PRD wrote:I wager any enchantment spell that is missing the mind-affecting descriptor is actually in error.Enchantment
Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior.
All enchantments are mind-affecting spells. Two subschools of enchantment spells grant you influence over a subject creature.
Intriguing! I'm guessing that whoever wrote that spell for APG removed the mind-affecting tag on purpose for the reason I mentioned above, but they forgot about that line from the definition of Enchantment. Likely the best fix is to make it divination. Since you're not gaining info with it, mind blank doesn't apply, so I can't think of a problem with switching the school to divination off the top of my head.
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andreww |
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OK, I have another method of dealing with Big T.
For this you will need someone capable of using level 9 arcane spells. I recommend a wizard or sorcerer. They should have a strong casting stat, a staff of the master, piercing spell, quicken spell and persistent spell.
First get close to the Big T. I recommend doing so with Greater Invisibility to avoid being pin cushioned. You will need to be no more than 75' away assuming caster level 20.
First drop a Reach Mind Blank on Big T adding Quicken from the staff. You are liable to have a CL of 29 assuming the ioun stone, kimono and great spell penetration. Add some dweomer essence and you only fail on a 1. Mind Blank is an abjuration to which he is not immune.
Next cast Imprisonment on him adding Reach Spell from the Staff. Employ the same SR busting tricks. You can easily put him at needing a 20 to save. If you want to be more sure move up to him and add Persistent instead of Reach. Imprisonment is also an abjuration which he is not immune to.
Imprisonment locks him away for ever unless he is released but it also puts him in temporal stasis. This means time ceases to flow for him and the mind blank duration never runs out. He is now locked away and cannot be located magically by any form of mortal magic.
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Zaister |
You're right, that spell doesn't really make sense as an enchantment spell. Since it actually targets the creature, it changes something about that creature, so I'd say transmutation comes closest.
This is getting somewhat off-topic, though.
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Ashiel |
![Seoni](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/The-pharaoh-1.jpg)
OK, I have another method of dealing with Big T.
For this you will need someone capable of using level 9 arcane spells. I recommend a wizard or sorcerer. They should have a strong casting stat, a staff of the master, piercing spell, quicken spell and persistent spell.
First get close to the Big T. I recommend doing so with Greater Invisibility to avoid being pin cushioned. You will need to be no more than 75' away assuming caster level 20.
First drop a Reach Mind Blank on Big T adding Quicken from the staff. You are liable to have a CL of 29 assuming the ioun stone, kimono and great spell penetration. Add some dweomer essence and you only fail on a 1. Mind Blank is an abjuration to which he is not immune.
Next cast Imprisonment on him adding Reach Spell from the Staff. Employ the same SR busting tricks. You can easily put him at needing a 20 to save. If you want to be more sure move up to him and add Persistent instead of Reach. Imprisonment is also an abjuration which he is not immune to.
Imprisonment locks him away for ever unless he is released but it also puts him in temporal stasis. This means time ceases to flow for him and the mind blank duration never runs out. He is now locked away and cannot be located magically by any form of mortal magic.
Very nicely done sir. :)
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![Phantasmal Octopus](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/PZO9471-Octopus_500.jpeg)
Another solid option is interplanetary teleport and just put him in low earth orbit. That forces him into stasis and keeps him where you can find him.
The second option is honestly throwing him into heaven isn't a bad option either. The angels and archons will probably not be too happy but considering the empyreal lords floating around they should be able to slug it down to either imprisoned or in hibernation somewhere on the plane. Now I'm not saying that they would be the happiest people in all the planes to have the CR 25 godzilla monster on their door but would probably see the merits of both sending it to them (they have the man power to drop it) and the idea of them storing and containing the beast for the safety of the other planes. Remember Hell isn't the only place the other planes stash super weapons too dangerous to wander around.
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Ashiel |
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![Seoni](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/The-pharaoh-1.jpg)
Another solid option is interplanetary teleport and just put him in low earth orbit. That forces him into stasis and keeps him where you can find him.
The second option is honestly throwing him into heaven isn't a bad option either. The angels and archons will probably not be too happy but considering the empyreal lords floating around they should be able to slug it down to either imprisoned or in hibernation somewhere on the plane. Now I'm not saying that they would be the happiest people in all the planes to have the CR 25 godzilla monster on their door but would probably see the merits of both sending it to them (they have the man power to drop it) and the idea of them storing and containing the beast for the safety of the other planes. Remember Hell isn't the only place the other planes stash super weapons too dangerous to wander around.
Honestly a single Solar can curbstomp a the tarrasque so hard that if you wanted to throw it onto whatever celestial plane there was, you could probably just send them a warning beforehand so they knew to pick up the package as it were.
Let's look at this reasonably. The tarrasque can't actually kill a solar (its regeneration doesn't allow it, it can't pierce the solar's DR, it can't grapple them, etc). A solar has a variety of options for beating a Tarrasque into paste, be it just throwing slaying arrows at it until it rolls a 1, or beating into paste and then using a coup de grace to kill it, then casting wish as a SLA and finishing it off permanently by animating it, and then delivering the final blow destroying it.
It's not even a matter of being particularly tactical about it either. The solar can just buff slightly and then beat the tar out of big T. I mean, Big T's AC is only 40 (37 exhausted). Freedom of movement to avoid getting eaten, bull's strength, and then divine power for a +6 to hit and damage brings the Solar's usual attack routine with his +5 dancing weapon up to +43/+38/+33/+28 at 3d6+27 per hit. The tarrasque is going to be exhausted because waves of fatigue cannot be stopped by a saving throw, the tarrasque's special abilities, and can be used at-will with a 20th CL (which means that the Solar will beat his SR, it's just a matter of rolling decently), which means that Big T is going to have -6 Str, -6 Dex, moves 1/2 speed, can't run, can't charge.
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Ashiel |
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![Seoni](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/The-pharaoh-1.jpg)
Actually, now that I think about it, the Solar might just let the Tarrasque eat him and then rip him to shreds from the inside. The solar is immune to the acid damage he takes and his DR and regeneration stop the brunt of the crushing damage he would take. By casting miracle to copy form of the dragon I the solar could just get gobbled up and proceed to power attack at full power against the Tarrasque's innards. Its natural attacks are treated as Epic so the Tarrasque gets no DR against them.
Solar *transforms into a dragon*.
Tarrasque: "Puny angel, I'll devour you! *nom*"
Solar *begins devouring the Tarrasque's insides like wasp larvae devouring the interior of its host*
Tarrasque: "Oh sweet Rovagug!! Q~Q"
Tarrasque *dies*
Solar *erupts from the mangled corpse and casts wish->animate dead. Que fanfare.
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Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal |
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![Goblin](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Pathfinder1_02a.jpg)
The Solar might call his/her ex-girlfriend the Erinyes up. "Hey baby, you know how we never do anything together anymore? Well, this mortal I know is sending Rovagug's Herald my way for a love-fest. Want in?"
Pretty sure even a Devil would be willing to overlook the stink of goodness for an invite to that dance...
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Ashiel |
![Seoni](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/The-pharaoh-1.jpg)
Note that the Solar would have to UMD a scroll, since Animate Dead is a spell with the evil descriptor and thus not on the Solar's spell list ;)
"What's that? You're eliminating one of the greatest threat on Golarion using a spell with the EVIL descriptor? NOT ON MY WATCH!"
You might want to re-check the post. He's casting it as a SLA via his 1/day wish SLA. His wish now duplicates the effects of an animate dead spell as cast by a wizard.
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Kudaku |
![Lem](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/A4-pf12_simulacrum.jpg)
Kudaku wrote:You might want to re-check the post. He's casting it as a SLA via his 1/day wish SLA. His wish now duplicates the effects of an animate dead spell as cast by a wizard.Note that the Solar would have to UMD a scroll, since Animate Dead is a spell with the evil descriptor and thus not on the Solar's spell list ;)
"What's that? You're eliminating one of the greatest threat on Golarion using a spell with the EVIL descriptor? NOT ON MY WATCH!"
I stand corrected. Did you use the Wish SLA specifically to sidestep the cleric restriction on casting evil-aligned spells?
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Ashiel |
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![Seoni](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/The-pharaoh-1.jpg)
Ashiel wrote:I stand corrected. Did you use the Wish SLA specifically to sidestep the cleric restriction on casting evil-aligned spells?Kudaku wrote:You might want to re-check the post. He's casting it as a SLA via his 1/day wish SLA. His wish now duplicates the effects of an animate dead spell as cast by a wizard.Note that the Solar would have to UMD a scroll, since Animate Dead is a spell with the evil descriptor and thus not on the Solar's spell list ;)
"What's that? You're eliminating one of the greatest threat on Golarion using a spell with the EVIL descriptor? NOT ON MY WATCH!"
Pretty much. And because when you use a SLA you ignore material components, so he doesn't need to worry about having 750 gp in onyx gems, so it's convenient. I realize that 750 gp in gems is a paltry sum for a solar, but it's just more stylish for the solar to fell the creature, raise his hand and strip the monster of its life-force, and then destroy the undead husk in a cloud of righteous ash and glittering embers. :P
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![Halruun](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/PF19-07.jpg)
The Animate Dead trick probably doesn't work, and certainly only works if you manage to kill it with some other method than HP damage. Read the rules on regeneration, by them it is still alive no matter what amount of negative HP you reduce it to. Animate Dead requires a dead body to work.
Now, the Spawn of Rovagug description does say the following:
...they regenerate even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect. If a spawn of Rovagug fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with i hit point if no further damage is dealt to its remains.
So it's debatable, per RAW, that this would work during those three rounds. However it goes on to say:
It can be banished or otherwise transported as a means to save a region, but a method to kill Spawn of Rovagug has yet to be discovered.
Which is contradictory with the above by a strict RAW reading...meaning one of the two statements must be flavor ('rises from death' or 'method to kill'), not rules in the strictest sense. If the first is rules, then this works (if and only if you kill it with a death effect), if the second is correct then Animate Dead never works, since it's never actually dead. The second is more consistent with the Regeneration rules, and by far the more logical interpretation.
A Solar can probably still beat it up and imprison it in a private demiplane or something, though.
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![Phantasmal Octopus](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/PZO9471-Octopus_500.jpeg)
The Animate Dead trick probably doesn't work, and certainly only works if you manage to kill it with some other method than HP damage. Read the rules on regeneration, by them it is still alive no matter what amount of negative HP you reduce it to. Animate Dead requires a dead body to work.
Now, the Spawn of Rovagug description does say the following:
Inner Sea Gods wrote:...they regenerate even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect. If a spawn of Rovagug fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with i hit point if no further damage is dealt to its remains.So it's debatable, per RAW, that this would work during those three rounds. However it goes on to say:
Inner Sea Gods wrote:It can be banished or otherwise transported as a means to save a region, but a method to kill Spawn of Rovagug has yet to be discovered.Which is contradictory with the above by a strict RAW reading...meaning one of the two statements must be flavor ('rises from death' or 'method to kill'), not rules in the strictest sense. If the first is rules, then this works (if and only if you kill it with a death effect), if the second is correct then Animate Dead never works, since it's never actually dead. The second is more consistent with the Regeneration rules, and by far the more logical interpretation.
A Solar can probably still beat it up and imprison it in a private demiplane or something, though.
Honestly you could play with both being true. Hell if the latter rule is true even while it is "dead" it could supersede the ability to use animate dead. Or you could play it that you could animate it and then kill it but unfortunately that whole super regen turns back on and the zombie Tarrasque rises from the dead alive and angry again.
Seriously we are talking about the herald of the rough beast and a creature so bad and nasty that there is only one and they call it THE ARMAGEDDON ENGINE. Let it play bigger then big. Now even if only one is true you still need to slam it a lot of death effects in order to put it down which either means some nasty outsiders or a rather large and well trained army of wizards that you will probably lose half of.
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GreyWolfLord |
![Avimar Sorrinash](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/PZO9058-Avimar_90.jpeg)
If any player in a game I ran managed to send the Tarrasque to another Plane (really, any other Plane)...they would receive it back within a few days or weeks, along with annoyed denizens of the Plane in question.
Plane-shifting the Tarrasque doesn't solve the problem it poses, it makes it someone else's problem. And y'know what? The denizens of most other planes, collectively anyway, are in a position to return the favor. With interest.
It'd also constitute an Evil act to send it to any Plane other than Abbadon, the Abyss, or Hell, since bystanders would almost certainly be killed wherever you send it.
Space is a VERY big place...so is the Astral plane. I think a majority of both are uninhabited.
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andreww |
Seriously we are talking about the herald of the rough beast and a creature so bad and nasty that there is only one and they call it THE ARMAGEDDON ENGINE. Let it play...
I have posted multiple ways in this thread in which a single moderately prepared caster can remove it with little to no risk to themselves. For all it is all "rarrgh, rarrgh, I am the engine of destruction" its +12 will save is a crippling weakness which makes it a frankly trivial threat at high level to anyone with a bit of sense.
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![Halruun](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/PF19-07.jpg)
Honestly you could play with both being true. Hell if the latter rule is true even while it is "dead" it could supersede the ability to use animate dead. Or you could play it that you could animate it and then kill it but unfortunately that whole super regen turns back on and the zombie Tarrasque rises from the dead alive and angry again.
The second isn't supported by any interpretation of RAW (the Zombie version loses Regeneration and doesn't get it back just by dying). You could do it, but it's explicitly a House Rule.
The first is, as I mention, a valid interpretation of the RAW and what I'd use, both to highlight its indestructibility and because that seems to be the RAI as well as RAW.
Seriously we are talking about the herald of the rough beast and a creature so bad and nasty that there is only one and they call it THE ARMAGEDDON ENGINE. Let it play bigger then big. Now even if only one is true you still need to slam it a lot of death effects in order to put it down which either means some nasty outsiders or a rather large and well trained army of wizards that you will probably lose half of.
That...seems excessive. A single high-enough level Wizard or Cleric can probably manage something if given prep-time. Like most encounters, actually.
Space is a VERY big place...so is the Astral plane. I think a majority of both are uninhabited.
Space, absolutely, but the Astral Plane seems fairly inhabited based on descriptions of said inhabitants...and more importantly, the Tarrasque can travel through it instead of being reduced to hibernation like in space, getting somewhere to kill people in relatively short order (especially since it won't get hungry or tired).
Transporting it into a stable orbit in outer space (so it doesn't crash into a planet and cause great destruction) is...tricky. It's doable, but hardly easy.
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Ashiel |
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![Seoni](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/The-pharaoh-1.jpg)
Yeah. But the Tarrasque's is special. It's regeneration says that it can be killed by a fortitude save that would slay it. Then it rises from dead 3 rounds later. For 3 rounds, the Tarrasque is dead per the rules. This is not complicated. I really don't understand why people try to over complicate everything on these boards.
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![Halruun](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/PF19-07.jpg)
Yeah. But the Tarrasque's is special. It's regeneration says that it can be killed by a fortitude save that would slay it. Then it rises from dead 3 rounds later. For 3 rounds, the Tarrasque is dead per the rules. This is not complicated. I really don't understand why people try to over complicate everything on these boards.
Read my previous post (the one a couple of posts up). I go into that.
In brief, that section has two contradictory statements...so one of them pretty much has to be fluff. I'm betting on the one that says it's dead, given that that makes much more sense. And even if that isn't the case, you need to kill it with an instant death effect to activate that clause, not just beat it to death.