So I just had a random idea for a houserule that I was hoping some people would like to share their thoughts on. The big issue for sneak attack is how situational it is compounded by the fact that it is actually the main damage dealer for the classes that have it (potentially excluding Vivisectionist Alchemist). I'm also not a fan of imposing an Improved Feint tax on the poor Rogue. With that in mind I'm thinking of adding this to the rules concerning sneak attack:
"As a full round action, you may make one attack at full base attack bonus and apply sneak attack damage as though the target was flatfooted. Sneak attack is not applied if the creature is immune to precision damage or being flatfooted.
When your base attack bonus reaches 6 or higher, you may use this ability as part of a standard action."
Originally I was thinking full round action as otherwise it would have no downside to start with, but in retrospect I'm thinking the restriction may not be necessary and it should just start as something that can be done as part of a standard action; it's not like Rogues are known for having nice things so they could use something.
I figured this would make sneak attack more usable while still requiring Rogues to think tactically in their movements if they want to be able to benefit from sneak attack more than once per round. It's also meant to be worded so that it can be combined with other effects that use a standard action, such as Vital Strike or even Cleave... though Cleave make not make much sense depending on the context.
It's not a bad idea, but I always thought the problem with sneak attack was that it did damage and nothing else.
Throwing in my two cents...
What if you had a feat that gave rogues a way of using their sneak attack (or at least parts of it) without giving them additional ways of adding all those sweet dice? You don't want to give them a whole bunch of new tricks but maybe give them a new avenue to pursue that will make non-situational melee combat more rewarding for them. For example, if they could deal an extra point of damage per sneak attack die they would normally gain against a flat-footed opponent, that would potentially give them a +1 to +10 bonus on damage over a 20 level progression. Make the damage non-stacking with sneak attack and non-multiplied on a critical hit, and you've got yourself an ability that is rewarding to use because it is based on the rogue's skill in picking out pressure points.
Pressure Points
You know how to hit where it hurts, even if you can't catch your opponent unaware.
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +1d6.
Benefit: Whenever you make a melee attack against a target who is not flat-footed or otherwise unaware of you but would otherwise qualify as a sneak attack, you deal an additional +1 point of damage per sneak attack die you would normally roll. This extra damage is not multiplied on a critical hit. You do not gain this additional damage if you deal normal sneak attack damage to a target. You must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. You cannot use this feat while striking a creature with concealment.
It's not a bad idea, but I always thought the problem with sneak attack was that it did damage and nothing else.
Thats one of the popular arguments, but what "the problem" is depends on the viewpoint of the person talking about sneak attack. The complaints I remember are:
-Situational (need flanking or loss of dex bonus)-Immune creatures (slimes, et al)
-Not enough damage (need huge weapon or two weapons)
-Its only damage (injured creatures still function at 100%)
-Low attack bonus (rogues don't have full-BAB)
-Ranged SA is hard (no flanking)
I kind of dig some of the issues. In my perfect little world, a warrior like the fighter should win in a straight up fight, and a warrior like the rogue should win when there is an advantage to exploit. We're not quite there yet.
@Cyrad
I never really thought of it that way. In the context of what I was thinking for my houserule, I could see a potential list of effects being applied based on level (shaken, sickened, blinded? Maybe let him essentially apply Dirty Trick and give him the feats for it for free as he levels?) but only when meeting standard sneak attack requirements. That would give the Rogue something to do combat wise while not in his element and make him more effective when he is.
@Pheoran
That would be better as a Rogue Talent instead of a feat, but I see your point. More things that act as a backup for the poor Rogue without a flank buddy is nice. I do like the concept there, but I'd consider renaming it as to avoid confusion with the Ninja talent.
What about something that would allow a rogue to gain a bonus based on his sneak attack class feature to the dirty tricks combat maneuver. I don't think a +1 bonus per sneak attack die would be outlandish. If the rogue was able to perform a dirty trick combat maneuver on a flat-footed or unaware opponent, maybe increase the effective rounds of the maneuver by the same bonus?
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This was my attempt at a sneak attack replacement. It was fairly well received.
@Cyrad
I never really thought of it that way. In the context of what I was thinking for my houserule, I could see a potential list of effects being applied based on level (shaken, sickened, blinded? Maybe let him essentially apply Dirty Trick and give him the feats for it for free as he levels?) but only when meeting standard sneak attack requirements. That would give the Rogue something to do combat wise while not in his element and make him more effective when he is.
I agree with this, give him Improved Dirty Trick and then Quick Dirty Trick. Perhaps the effect is worse if the target is in a sneak attack condition.
Something unique could help Sneak Attack to stand out. Perhaps a rogue talent that allows sneak attack damage to be swapped for denying an opponent their next move action (bye-bye full attacks) or forcing a concentration check at -X penalty on spellcasting during their next turn. Either could be very situationally useful.
It's not a bad idea, but I always thought the problem with sneak attack was that it did damage and nothing else.Thats one of the popular arguments, but what "the problem" is depends on the viewpoint of the person talking about sneak attack. The complaints I remember are:
-Situational (need flanking or loss of dex bonus)
-Immune creatures (slimes, et al)
-Not enough damage (need huge weapon or two weapons)
-Its only damage (injured creatures still function at 100%)
-Low attack bonus (rogues don't have full-BAB)
-Ranged SA is hard (no flanking)I kind of dig some of the issues. In my perfect little world, a warrior like the fighter should win in a straight up fight, and a warrior like the rogue should win when there is an advantage to exploit. We're not quite there yet.
I think it's pretty good the way it is, though I've admittedly never played a rogue.
I think of sneak attack as the martial equivalent of a save or die spell. You can't use them all the time, and they don't always work, but when they do, the damage is huge. For sneak attacks especially, I'm in favor of the Massive Damage rules, requiring a fort save to avoid death if you take too much damage from a single blow. A knife in the kidney should be lethal, at least some of the time.
Obviously some creatures are going to be immune to precision damage, just as some are immune or highly resistant to other damage types.
I'm not sure if I can agree that the damage is too low, considering it's still a lot more than any other martial class can dish out in a single blow, without additional feats that the rogue can also take. Sneak attacks can be applied to every hit in a full attack action, in the right situations.
I could agree with the "it's only damage" argument, except that that's the case with all HP damage in PF. There's no penalty for being injured, unless dirty tricks or sub-targeting are used. There's definitely room for improvement in this area of the game, but it's not a problem exclusive to sneak attack. There are at least a few rogue talents that add extra effects to sneak attack, though there should probably be a few more.