I created an animated wagon with craft construct. It can only fly, I took away its ground movement ability to give it more flying speed as per the construction rules for animated objects.
The question is, can it run? There is nothing apparently limiting the ability of flying things to run regardless of how they fly, as far as I have been able to tell, but the GM argues that most have access to wings. I argue that the fly speed is from it being a magic item and so that's irrelevant, but he wants a rules clarification.
I think the best way to deal with this would be to find a magic creature of some sort that flies but has no wings. That would settle the issue. I can't think of any off the top of my head except for the Beholder from D&D.
"Run" does mean mean you have to run with your legs. It means that you are moving at a certain speed. The word "run" because most PC's will travel with their legs, and the rules are not written perfectly.
Depends. Flying creatures can run just fine with their fly speed as the Run action does not contain any restrictions on which types of speed do and don't work (so no legs required, else it would have said land speed instead of just speed), but creatures flying by using the Fly spell cannot use their fly speed to run. Was the fly spell used in the crafting process in order to give the wagon the ability to fly? If so then I'd agree with your GM, as the spell specifically says that you cannot run with the fly speed given by the spell.
A Summoner's Eidolon can spend 4 evolution points to get magical flight, which does not have any restrictions on Running like the Fly spell does, so such an Eidolon can use his fly speed with Run.
As stated, the fly speed was given as per the construction rules for animated objects. It did not come from the fly spell.
@Ravingdork
My GM generally argues that unless it is specifically allowed by the pathfinder rules, it isn't allowed. That link provides nothing to help.
@Malachi Silverclaw
Animated Object construction rules are all available here.
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From your link:-
Additional Movement (Ex, 1 CP): Gains a new mode of movement (burrow, climb, fly [clumsy], or swim) at a speed equal to its base speed.
Although it's not necessary to flap wings in order to fly, you do need some way of flying. I can't see any way for an animated object to fly without a physical means of doing so, because, by itself, it has no magical ability to fly. The only 'magical' ability it has is the 'animated' part, which lets an object move it's own parts as if they were limbs, not to somehow magically fly.
I took away its ground movement ability to give it more flying speed as per the construction rules for animated objects.
What do you mean by this? Merely that you gained extra construction points by reducing one mode of movement and spending those points of a new mode (fly) and Faster?
Anyway, you can't just give your construct a magical flight that resembles a fly spell, and if you did then you'd have to follow the rules for that spell.
You have to explain it's flight by it physically flapping and thrashing it's body around, just like the rest of us.
This is actually good news for you! If you have a fly speed, then you can run while flying. However, you must obey the conditions for running:-
You can run as a full-round action. If you do, you do not also get a 5-foot step. When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line (or three times your speed if you're in heavy armor). You lose any Dexterity bonus to AC unless you have the Run feat.
The run action would be a full round action the construct takes. Constructs can't have any feats, so no Run feat. While running the construct would have to travel in a straight line. The DM may also rule that turbulence counts as difficult terrain for flying creatures.
There is also the matter of the Fly skill:-
Creatures with a fly speed treat the Fly skill as a class skill. A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability: Clumsy –8, Poor –4, Average +0, Good +4, Perfect +8. Creatures without a listed maneuverability rating are assumed to have average maneuverability.
A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Fly checks depending on its size category: Fine +8, Diminutive +6, Tiny +4, Small +2, Large –2, Huge –4, Gargantuan –6, Colossal –8.
This means that even though Fly is a class skill for any creature with a fly speed, since constructs can't have any skill points then it's Fly modifier is -2 (Dex) -8 (clumsy) -4 (huge), for a total modifier of -14. This is bad. For example, if your construct wanted to fly at less than half speed then it can only remain flying if it rolls a natural 24...on a d20. Forget about turning more than 45 degrees or hovering or flying upward at an angle of greater than 45 degrees.
The wagon will have a Str score of 30. Flying creatures can only fly with a light load or less, so that means a maximum flying load of 2133 lbs. (it's huge, but not a quaraped since it's not using four legs to move, and you took it's ground move capacity away.
So, good news and bad news. : )
Your little calculation on the fly skill appears to be wrong.
"Creatures without a listed maneuverability rating are assumed to have average maneuverability."
So... -6.
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Your little calculation on the fly skill appears to be wrong.
"Creatures without a listed maneuverability rating are assumed to have average maneuverability."
So... -6.
As I posted above:-
Additional Movement (Ex, 1 CP): Gains a new mode of movement (burrow, climb, fly [clumsy], or swim) at a speed equal to its base speed.
So, -14. : )
Woops.
Not relevant, anyway. It's transport, not combat, and has standing orders to avoid combat if not currently being ridden by me. Nothing short of a tornado can blow it off course.
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I created an animated wagon with craft construct. It can only fly, I took away its ground movement ability to give it more flying speed as per the construction rules for animated objects.
The question is, can it run? There is nothing apparently limiting the ability of flying things to run regardless of how they fly, as far as I have been able to tell, but the GM argues that most have access to wings. I argue that the fly speed is from it being a magic item and so that's irrelevant, but he wants a rules clarification.
I think the best way to deal with this would be to find a magic creature of some sort that flies but has no wings. That would settle the issue. I can't think of any off the top of my head except for the Beholder from D&D.
This is an old argument and, sadly, PFRPG has been remiss in properly addressing the different movement types, specifically "burrow" and "fly." There's some information under the Fly skill, but nothing that addresses the "run" question. Unfortunately, without a FAQ update from Paizo, you're stuck with making your own decision on this.
If it helps, 3.5 was very specific about being able to use the "run action" when flying, as long as you flew in a straight line. Whenever PFRPG comes up short, as a GM I turn to 3.5's rules in matters like this whenever they're available - but that's not RAW, just a suggestion.
If it helps your argument with the GM, the key feature that sets "run" apart from a simple double move is the requirement to move in a straight line. The idea is that by "sprinting" headlong in a straight line, you're able to do a "double-double move" if you will. There's no reason this can't be applied to flight, wings or not.