Goblin Squad Member
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Having a "cost" is a good selling point. So (as modified now) it would be about keeping someone out of a PVE or harvesting area. Primarily, at least, preventing them from coming and capitalizing on your work to clear it first?
Yes, though I think there should also be a container ownership like EVE.
Although it seems like a limited use system for the work to build, if they had the time/resources, I would get behind it. The radius of effect would need to be larger, wouldn't it?
It's best to leave numbers to the developers, to be later tweaked through play testing.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Personal_Space.svg
For me, a SYG is a good way to represent the "personal space" that we all have a right to. I should have the right to protect my immediate personal space.
For exemple, if I see an obviously hostile actor approching me, I shouldn't have to wait to receive the first blow to protect myself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If it were a flag to plant, "King of the Hill" style, that says "You have X seconds to leave or be subject to penalty free PVP vs. player Joe"... Joe plants the flag, but it costs Influence. He is challenging all to stay out. No one is subject to penalty for PVP if they stay.
Edit: Could be a great faction skill for adventures and gatherers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Personal_Space.svg
For me, a SYG is a good way to represent the "personal space" that we all have a right to. I should have the right to protect my immediate personal space.
For exemple, if I see an obviously hostile actor approching me, I shouldn't have to wait to receive the first blow to protect myself.
If they're obviously hostile, why would this stop them? You just gave them a way to kill you AND avoid the alignment/rep consequences. I'd send you a hearty thank-you tell for making my job easier.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For clarification purposes:
Is your intention for this 'mechanic' to be a learned ability? Or is it something that everyone has access to?
I think the idea has some merit, but ONLY IF it is an ability that must be purchased and trained (which makes sense: being a good shieldwall defender with enough bluster to force someone to stand-down would definitely require training).
Otherwise, I think (like others here) that it just another mechanic that would draw resources that I feel could be better spent elsewhere.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another "thought". With a cost, couldn't players abuse you by breaking their party and forcing you to target them each?
If they break party, you can go at them one at a time. And they would have to come in blind and separated. Breaking party after a SYG is issued will not remove the SYG, it will just make it so you can' help your other party members once they are attacked.
I would also say that any party members that remain in the SYG are automatically split into another party.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If they're obviously hostile, why would this stop them? You just gave them a way to kill you AND avoid the alignment/rep consequences. I'd send you a hearty thank-you tell for making my job easier.
You seem to have skipped most of the discussion, and how the idea has changed.
If someone is aggressively coming at you, you can hit SYG and take a rep hit. They will either hit their SYG in response and take a rep hit, you will be able to attack them free of rep consequences if they don't leave, or they will take a larger rep hit to get the first strike in.
Nothing has been said to indicate this would void alignment consequences, it just lessens rep consequences.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh, so it's an even more complicated mess than the original idea. If clutter like this is in the game then the basic, core design has serious problems. The core pvp & reputation design should be able to handle most situations.
It looks that way right now. Like many ideas, it would need to be simplified from the creator's concept to "workable" end result. Not always favorable in the eyes of the conceptualist, but often necessary.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If someone is aggressively coming at you, you can hit SYG and take a rep hit. They will either hit their SYG in response and take a rep hit, you will be able to attack them free of rep consequences if they don't leave, or they will take a larger rep hit to get the first strike in.
This time i'm a little lost. If someone is "agressively coming at you" in the sense they are actually attacking, then SYG is completely pointless, no?
Isn't the purpose of SYG to
1) chase away the "neutrals" standing by your fallen comrades corpse waiting for you to be distracted so they can loot and run, or the miner who tries to ninja 'your' skymetal node before your gatherer friends arrive.
2) give a mechanism for voluntary pvp duels ('come get me')
3) potentially stop 'civilians' from entering a battlefield and tricking defenders to take rep hits
4) chase away pests
The size of the zone, who can declare it, cost, time to get out, visual representation, etc are all tunable parameters.
Personally, i'd like companies to be able to pay influence (initial and upkeep) to plant their flag in an unclaimed hex and 'own' a certain area for as long as they remain. Bandit/raider camps, black markets, druid groves... There is a potential problem that the strongest settlements might hog all the meteorite sites, but that could again be solved by tuning the costs (ie low costs for normal wilderness, high cost for meteorite and choke points, can't SYG in monster hexes)
re: my previous posts, others already gave all the good answers to the questions that came up.
So when Ryan suggested extreme high-Rep might mean someone is not willing to do the dirty work to make a settlement successful, that did not make sense to you?
I once played a pvp sandbox game which shall remain un-named.
If there was a rep system, I would have never had any negative rep. I did much dirty work and work in general.
Assuming a rep system works correctly, I don't see how doing "Dirty deeds" (per se) is necessary for success. It might be harder to do it the right way, but you should be rewarded.
If I go through the game without ever killing someone or stealing something (purely my choice btw), I would like that to be known. Not because I do it because of that, but I want people to know such things are possible.
And hopefully will open people's mind about the game. Trust me, there will be plenty of people who PK and plenty of people who PK and still keep very good rep... just because it's like you said, they do it quick and easy and it has high benefit to them, little risk.
However, they can be seen more as a power gamer than moral. You might say... ha, at morality in a pvp game, but I think it's necessary for someone to be.
I think this idea needs fleshing, but the concept makes sense. Could even be an auto-claim where if you are at a node for a certain amount of time, you gain possession of it and people who attack you are criminals. Obviously, everything can be abused... that's why I support GMs who can make objective rulings.
Still, my main point is that I disagree with what you said. Such behavior is not equal to paying dues or "doing work."
Edit: should be noted by killing I meant PKing, as in not during a battle or when I was attacked.
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Goblin Squad Member
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Personal_Space.svg
For me, a SYG is a good way to represent the "personal space" that we all have a right to. I should have the right to protect my immediate personal space.
For exemple, if I see an obviously hostile actor approching me, I shouldn't have to wait to receive the first blow to protect myself.
What about weapons sheathed vs primed status?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If anything like this IS included in the game I'd just like to suggest that it NOT be called 'Stand Your Ground'. People who are familiar with the Florida law of the same name should understand.
That said, it might make sense to just make this an automatic aspect of any sort of resource extraction or construction in a hex. You begin such activity and thereafter anyone entering the area either needs to be approved by you or can be treated as a hostile intruder (for reputation and alignment purposes) after being warned and a certain amount of time passing. I'm not sure it would make sense for everybody to be able to declare a random patch of dirt 'mine' and keep others out, but settlements and worksites should automatically qualify. Combat sites would also make sense... if a battle is going on in a given area then people entering the area should be warned (they'd hear the sounds of combat) and combatants shouldn't be penalized for assuming they are hostile. The same sort of 'non-hostile' flagging option described for work sites could be applied, but there'd be separate settings for each 'side' in the combat.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Maybe just play your own way , and see how the rep/alignment system labels you, without tweaking the rules to make your playstyle high rep ?
I'm really not a PvP player. But I don't think it's unfair to not be punished from protecting what you're looting, or the inventory of your buddy's corpse while he's coming back.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How does this issue not get handled by the trespasser, or triggering hostility?
If you have an outpost, you can have an unaffiliated alt standing by the storage box. If he should see a group that he is nervous about, he trips the box (loots it) and everyone within the radius is marked "Criminal", unless they leave the area.
Or, if the laws of your territory are set to bar entry of that group or individual, they would be marked as Trespasser(s).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe just play your own way , and see how the rep/alignment system labels you, without tweaking the rules to make your playstyle high rep ?I'm really not a PvP player. But I don't think it's unfair to not be punished from protecting what you're looting, or the inventory of your buddy's corpse while he's coming back.
A triple negative? o.o
Just to help me out in understanding, do you think it is fair to be able to protect areas/things via something like SYG?
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Goblin Squad Member
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How does this issue not get handled by the trespasser, or triggering hostility?
If you have an outpost, you can have an unaffiliated alt standing by the storage box. If he should see a group that he is nervous about, he trips the box (loots it) and everyone within the radius is marked "Criminal", unless they leave the area.
Or, if the laws of your territory are set to bar entry of that group or individual, they would be marked as Trespasser(s).
It's supposed to be used anywhere, not just in the immediate vicinity of an outpost.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If looting corpses (that aren't your kills) flags you and there is a marshal or "trespass" mechanic (for player land), the way the mechanic is described it would only really be useful to try and get others to leave a "wilder" gathering/PVE area that you want as yours.
Can anyone think of a use (beyond that) which is practical enough for the programming?
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Maybe just play your own way , and see how the rep/alignment system labels you, without tweaking the rules to make your playstyle high rep ?I'm really not a PvP player. But I don't think it's unfair to not be punished from protecting what you're looting, or the inventory of your buddy's corpse while he's coming back.A triple negative? o.o
Just to help me out in understanding, do you think it is fair to be able to protect areas/things via something like SYG?
Sorry, french.
"But I think it's fair to not be punished for protecting what you're looting,"
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe just play your own way , and see how the rep/alignment system labels you, without tweaking the rules to make your playstyle high rep ?I'm really not a PvP player. But I don't think it's unfair to not be punished from protecting what you're looting, or the inventory of your buddy's corpse while he's coming back.A triple negative? o.o
Just to help me out in understanding, do you think it is fair to be able to protect areas/things via something like SYG?
Sorry, french.
"But I think it's fair to not be punished for protecting what you're looting,"
I think you can protect what you have without shooting a noncombatant.
If someone loots a corpse , either:
-they're a thief, and they'll become a target with the first item they steal,
or
-they fought; and your whole party should be under combat flags and allowed to fight on without punishment.
Not sure about harvesting, but basically, I think the reputation system will have to be playtested before it's modified.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is unnecessary for the devs to worry about, or for us to worry about, for the moment.
I will remind you that the Blinds in the current SAD system can be used in more situations than just SADing, and can easily be used to stop people at a bridge, ambush convoys, create a checkpoint, lure into dangerous PvE monsters, etc.
I don't need "temp claims" when I can get the same from the current system, esp. when the current system is more flexible (imo)
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is unnecessary for the devs to worry about, or for us to worry about, for the moment.
I will remind you that the Blinds in the current SAD system can be used in more situations than just SADing, and can easily be used to stop people at a bridge, ambush convoys, create a checkpoint, lure into dangerous PvE monsters, etc.
I don't need "temp claims" when I can get the same from the current system, esp. when the current system is more flexible (imo)
SAD is not a system everyone can use, You have to be Chaotic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Valkenr
It is a skill now, as Urman said. I haven't heard any requirements of the alignment sort on it. And if that is the case, then just argue for the alignment restriction to be gone, not to overwrite the system. Even if it is alignment restricted, the whole point here is to have groups, and I am sure you, or anyone else, will be able to find a likely person of the needed alignment to help them out. In fact I have a few UnNames that I could mention right off the top of my head.