Help Chapter One - downtime and wandering monsters

Rise of the Runelords

I'm new to GMing and 2 weeks I will be starting RotRL with my group. Now I have been with the same group for 2 years now so I know them all very well and I'm confident in that part of GMing.

The issues I'm having are as follows:

1. In RotRL there's suppose to be a 20% chance of a wandering monster when the PCs go outside Sandpoint. Since I have never GM'd before I'm worried about running this correctly. Any advice/help would be very much appreciated.

2. How much information did you/should I give my players about certain things, such as Nualia's story, the history of Sandpoint and the Runelords, history of some of the NPCs and so on. Again help here is appreciated.

3. I decided to skip XP tracking and just level the PCs around the time the book says I should. Although I will be paying attention to where the book says they could get extra XP and if they do get it, while I'm not tracking it I will have them level maybe a little before the book says, or after if they don't. Given that I'm not tracking XP, what kinds of things can help motivate the party to go out and slay some monsters in downtime they have in the story.

4. In Part 2: Local Heroes, it mentions that most of the following encounters can be done in any order, even after the PCs have turned their attention to the Caverns. The issue I'm having is that most of them say they need to happen within a few days of the goblin raid, while some are best used to point the PCs in the right direction, namely Trouble at the Rusty Dragon.

5. There seems to be almost NO TREASURE in chapter 1. Should I add in some here and there or does this pick up alot in chapter 2?

Thanks again, more questions sure to follow.

Greetings, fellow traveller.

1. I picked random encounters from the table and added them to the game where I saw fit.

2. Depends on whether at least one of your PCs grew up in Sandpoint. If so, she knows about Nulia and the late Unpleasantness for sure. If not again depends on whom they talk to. If Father Zantus would be asked about the new magnificient cathedral I'm sure he would relate some of the history of Sandpoint (the fire!) to the PCs. Another option would be after they find the looted tomb of his predecessor.

3. I do the same in my game and have heard complaints about it. Tough question. PCs are mostly motivated if shown what the gain. So slay-and-fetch quests seem in order.

4. I do not grasp your concern.

5. I did not as I felt there's enough treasure in chapter 2 (dagger!).

Happy gaming!


Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

1. Ah, random encounters. I have a love/hate relationship with them. On one hand, they add verisimilitude to the game - the world's dangerous, and the party doesn't know if they'll be attacked by monsters at any time. On the other, it is random, so your party has a chance of running into the Sandpoint Devil at level 1. Some people will say, "That's the point! If they can't deal with a monster that's generated, then they need to learn to run." Not a bad answer, though another suggestion would be if you generate something that's incredibly dangerous (like the Sandpoint Devil), then it doesn't necessarily need to be a combat encounter. Maybe they hear a commotion in the woods several hundred yards away, and when they check it out, they find that an owlbear (or some other vicious predator that would easily take down the group) has been killed and partially eaten. There's scorch marks all around, and the only other tracks look like a horse's hooves - but it looks like the horse might have been standing upright, and the hoof marks are clawed. If they try to track the beast down, then you might run the encounter (and get ready to have the group make a new set of characters).

2. RuyanVe's got the right of this. Sandpoint residents will know the basics of what's going on (Nualia was adopted by Father Tobyn, there's a bastard Kaijutsu, the Late Unpleasantness, etc.). They won't know the secret information, though, and in fact, their knowledge can be dangerous. After all, everyone thinks that Chopper started the fires of the Late Unpleasantness - they'll find out the real culprit as the game goes on. Nobody in town knows about the Thassalonian ruins nearby, but once the party discovers them, Brodert Quink is the go-to guy on that. He's eccentric, though. Everyone in town thinks he's a bit crazy. He's on the order of Zecharia Sitchin - his theories are based on fact, but he goes out into left field to come up with some incredibly outlandish stuff, like the Old Light is actually an ancient Thassilonian weapon.

3. After you've removed XP, the best way to motivate players to go exploring or do whatever is to find out what motivates their characters, and write to that. If you used the AE campaign traits, then you've already got some prewritten hooks to the town, so think about what those people might want the characters to do.

4. There's not really a set order to Local Heroes. Consider this chapter your chance to get the players familiar with Sandpoint and its inhabitants. You can basically do any and all of this in any order, and the only thing that kicks off the next bit of plot is Ameiko's abduction. Once that happens, your PCs have a trail of breadcrumbs to follow if they want to save the town. But, in general, take your time, and let the PCs explore as much as they'd like.

5. Yep, the treasure in the first part of the books is a bit sparse. The Catacombs have a bit more cash, but most of the money is in Thistletop. My party was strapped for cash until they got there - now they're kitted out with the basics. If the party wants to buy stuff, the citizens would probably give them a discount - after all, they are the Heroes of Sandpoint!

For number 2. I was more talking about the entirety of her story...beyond what the town knows

If they end up killing her would it be game ending to let them know the whole story

1. Somehow I missed the "20% chance of random encounters" instruction... Random encounters are used for three purposes: a) to increase the verisimilitude of the world (nice word, Misroi!) - increase realism; b) spice up travel /get player attention - nothing increases player focus like violence; and c) give characters an XP boost. If you're not using XP, you don't need c). Unless the surrounding adventure is boring, not sure you need b) and it's your judgement on the need for a). Use such encounters to help tell the story or engage your pc's in the world. Don't roll dice for it. Pick one that fits what you need. If you don't know what you need, don't use them.
2. No one knows anything about Nualia except she died in the fire 5 years ago. The pc's can learn about her background when they find her diary and other items in Thistletop. Knowledge of Thassilon is very rare, so PC's should know almost nothing about it unless they have a specific character background to explain their knowledge - you can do this if it'll get one or more player's engaged in the campaign but it's a bit of a departure from the AP - which assumes the players learn about Thassilon as the campaign progresses and most of what they learn is unknown to everyone, even Quink. The Sandpoint and NPC history should be known to PC"s based on their own backgrounds - it the pc grew up in Sandpoint, they should know a lot. If they are from East Zimbabwe, then they won't know anything. This is another way to engage the players - encourage them to have origins or roots in Sandpoint or Magnimar.
3. I think the story awards are built into the "advance them to level X at point Y" mechanic. If you do the XP math, that's how it works out. Without XP, pc motivation needs to come from story elements - like I want to learn more about Thassilon or I hate goblins or I want to protect Sandpoint or I want to get rich or I like to kill things that need a good killin' but in a socially acceptable way.
4. As Misroi said, those elements can happen in any order, and I encourage you to work them all in if possible. But let your pc's explore Sandpoint. Consider having them actually shop for their initial equipment in Sandpoint. Encourage them to have specific contacts or relationships with NPC's - they work for the Carpenter's guild or they studied from the Monk in town or they were schooled at the Academy, etc. Use the encounters whenever things slow down or it's not clear what will happen next.
5. Heard the complaint about treasure before. Not sure what to make of it. My group just finished Thistletop and they don't seem to be suffering. They didn't have any big troubles where lack of gear held them back - though Malfeshnekor scared the crap out of them :)

Thanks for the answers...I have another though

6. We are used to home games where magic items are generally available if we travel...I have never used a roll to determine item availability...question would it be easier to just let the PCs go to Magnimar and get what they want (but limit it based in PC level or wealth) or should I go ahead and roll every "month" to see what they can get? How did you run this and how well/horrible did it work out

It depends on the situation. The events in the first book will have the PCs pretty hard-pressed for time almost from the first minute, so there won't be much time to stop and travel a few days to Magnimar to sell and buy stuff.

Really, that's something that's easier to save til after the first book is wrapped up, I have a policy of giving my groups a week of in-game downtime between the end of one book and the start of the next. Gives them time to travel, do things in Magnimar, sell stuff and visits churches and cool places, and then get called back for the second book.

As for number 2, anyone who has lived in the town for more than a few years probably knows a large part of Nualia's story, or at least, the stuff that she went through while living in town. Though they may see it from the perspective of someone on the outside, meaning they might not actually think they were part of the problem, which is an important thing to remember. Anyone in town will certainly know her, and remember the church burning. The actual stuff about her worshiping Lamashtu obviously they wouldn't know, same with the Catacombs, Skinsaw Cult, etc.

For 4, just run them whenever. Modify the encounter if you need to make it fit a different time. Remember, their names are well-known around town, and it's a small place. The fact that they continue to save the town, bring criminals to justice, and help people just makes them even bigger heroes in most people's eyes, so the affection shouldn't really diminish with time. Just run them whenever it feels right, and don't feel like they NEED to go exactly as written. It's just a suggestion, you can make up any little events you think will get a reaction out of your players.

For 5; A lot of the chapter's Wealth By Level is kind of tied up in the 12,000gp Cold Iron Returning Dagger that Erylium carries. It's a small item, almost useless, but by nature of the crafting/cost rules, it's just sitting there taking up a big portion of the party's wealth until they can sell it off (which probably won't be in Sandpoint, as 12,000gp is a crapload of money). There's also some +1 stuff mixed in and a 3000gp gold helmet, and plenty of cash. There's more than enough treasure for a 4-person party if they find all of it.

Some advice, based on my fresh experience with my party.

1. If you are skipping XP track, then the encounters are purely optional. But if you will use XP... Go with medium progression, or cut them out. Random encounters, on fast track, can boost PC's heavily. My party got lucky with them.

2. Be careful with Thassilion lore. One of my players is magus, that is studying this old empire - knows the language; by background, has a mentor that sparked this interest, and whose colleague is Quink (so character often speaks with old sage, showing everything he has discovered). Because of this, it's not easy to decide, what does he know, and how much, and what will he discover on the course of the adventure.
If you're going to have such a character, try to make a short list of he knows about Thassilion, and what he can discover, if, let say, he looks on the wall, with inscriptions on Thassilion, in catacombs.

3. Motivation for slaying additional monsters... Make the story go faster. Like on the second day after goblin attack, they are invited to small council with Hemlock, Kendra and Shalelu. There they are informed about unusual goblin activity, and about Hemlock's urgent departure to Magnimar for additional guard support (and that he does not know, how long he will be there). Because of their proven abilities and fame, they are granted with an offer, to become for a time (and money reward) sheriff's deputies. On the next day, after Sheriff and Shalelu are gone, trow everything at them. They are on the duty, make them respond to the situations that arise.

4. Just systematize the encounters in such way, that they will fill the void between, let's say, Hemlocks departure and Ameiko's disappearing.

5. It's not a serious problem, the treasure will be further, just have patience. Maybe, give the party some extra potions of cure light wounds.
And a good rule is, that the loot from party is bought by shops almost always for half-price maximum. Even magic items.

6. My solution - dice roll for how many items of every category is in the city this month. If 2d4 for minor gets me 5 items, it's 5 minor items that are available this month in the shop. After, players just show me, what they want to buy (if they have money), and I say, if the item is on sale or not. Theoretically, they can buy anything, the only limits - amount of money they have, how much items of each category is available this month and my ultimate decision.

And other advice - read The Skinsaw Murders. There are some moments you can incorporate in Burned Offerings. And for the integrity of the story at all, it will be good.

Drakkiel wrote:

Thanks for the answers...I have another though

6. We are used to home games where magic items are generally available if we travel...I have never used a roll to determine item availability...question would it be easier to just let the PCs go to Magnimar and get what they want (but limit it based in PC level or wealth) or should I go ahead and roll every "month" to see what they can get? How did you run this and how well/horrible did it work out

I did both or neither depending upon your point of view. While I've been doing the DM thing for a long time, Pathfinder is new, so the magic item availability thing is something I don't have a lot of experience with. I did it just to see what the results were for at least the first month. But on top of that, I've let the pc's "order by mail" by building relationships with merchants (like Savah) and have items brought in from Magnimar. There's a weekly bazaar in town where merchants come from the surrounding area (if my memory serves) - so it seems plausible to me merchants could have specific items brought in. It's not timely or quick but neither is a trip to Magnimar and finding a merchant there. I've let them know that the more widely useful magic items such as weapons or armor can be had readily in this way but more exotic or specialized items may have to be made themselves or will take more time and money. A potion of cure light wounds or remove disease are useful to just about everyone if they can afford them, a pearl of power or necklace of fireballs, not so much. So the availability of the former type is much higher. I like to provide some level of encouragement for characters to craft their own items.

Like many things, I don't think there's a right or wrong answer here, it's more about how you and your players like to play. If you aren't interested in economics being a part of the game or otherwise want it to be simple, let the players buy whatever they want. If you want magic items to be more rare or acquisition of them to be part of the role-playing or challenge, then go that direction. Ask your players what they might like.

I was very much like Latrecis: I rolled items for the first week or two, but I let the PCs special order stuff from Magnimar, figuring 2-7 days' delivery time. (7 if it's a fairly mundane item and it's just going to come out with next week's merchant train, 2 if it's so expensive the person doing the ordering will go out of their way to use magic to contact Magnimar and get it sent immediately).

But I gave up rolling after week 3 or 4, as the PC levels were high enough they just went to Magnimar when they needed things, rather than waiting.

Thanks again guys...I will take this all into account...probably going to skip rolling for items and just say that these items (at this point give a list) are available and just change it up until they feel like running to Magnimar

Also I have read the first 4 books now and I'm typing up my own synopsis that will allow me to run the game from just a few pages per book as I retain just about everything I read...don't need much to bring stuff back from my memory

One thing I did for getting the party Nualia's story (beyond what the characters who grew up in/around Sandpoint knew) was

that once Nualia was learned to be alive and behind the attacks, I had Father Zantus give them a copy of her diary from her Sandpoint days that he found in the ashes of the old church. (I found the diary in the Community Content thread.) I was originally going to have the Gravedigger be the one who gave it to them, but the party treated him so poorly I couldn't see him doing anything to aid them.

The idea was (which I modified to Zantus) was the Gravedigger found it in the ruins of the old church, but kept it hidden because it painted the beloved Father Tobyn in a very unflattering light, and the fact that the diary implied Nualia herself set the fire, since she had died in it, it wasn't worth bringing up painful truths about the dead. It was better to let them be remembered fondly.

I think knowing her motivations before confronting her helped the flow of the story.

While RotRL does of good job of giving the motivations behind the various villains, too often the party ends up learning it after the fact (if at all) via finding their journals. I'm still only in Chapter 3 with my group, but I think if I ever run it again, I'm going to try to come up with ways to organically reveal the various villains motivations within the story.

I wholeheartedly agree with everything you say, Kalshane.

One of the most touching moments of the entire campaign for us was when the drow paladin cradled Nualia's unconscious form in her arms and did a touching monologue about how there but for the grace of Sarenrae went she.

The player really felt a visceral connection to Nualia: The paladin was a member of an evil race who had been rescued and raised with kindness, discipline, and hope, and had achieved the heights of paladinhood. Nualia was a member of a good race who had been treated with contempt, alienation, and cruelty, and had turned to evil.

There wasn't a dry eye at the table.

And it was because they knew Nualia's history *before* they faced her that it was possible.

Get those BBEG backgrounds out to the PCs if at all possible...

I will be doing this now...thank you both...Kalshane would you happen to have a link to that thread or could you share it

I really want to do my best with this group...2 of the 4 need a real good push for role play so stuff like this is what I need :)

I was wrong. It wasn't in the Community Created Content thread, it was here:

I used the second, expanded version.

1) For my random encounters, I tried to shy away from a purely "wandering monster" view, and added a variety of encounter types. Not just adding "You meet a wandering merchant" or "You find some acolytes making a pilgrimage to the new Cathedral", but also some inane occurances like "You see 3 dwarves furiously arguing in dwarvish, with a roguish looking character sitting nearby munching on some trail rations. He explains 'I jumped out and said your money or your life...about three hours ago'", or "You see an orc kneeling in front of a burning hut, clutching a small doll. His entire family killed by wandering adventurers. He cries ceaslessly (And gains a +1 on all attack/damage rolls)."

They've enjoyed the breaks, anyhow. Breather episodes, if you will.

3) There's always gold or treasure to be had! Greed works well with most adventurers. Like as was said before, play off their character hooks. It'll make them feel engaged, and if you can weave a bit of their plots into the main story, they'll feel that much more motivated to keep to the rails.

Grand Lodge

I actually had no trouble keeping my players with enough treasure in chapter 1. You have to consider all the small things. They add up! For instance, each one of those goblin warriors that you encounter in the first encounter alone comes with leather armor, a dogslicer, a shield, a shortbow which is their most pricey item, and arrows. Then consider the stuff that maybe isn't mentioned but would be implied. For instance, the goblin commando in that same early encounter is riding a goblin dog. That means there would be a saddle and a bit & bridle. Also, don't forget that gear is sold at half price, but valuables like gems, jewelry, and artwork are sold and traded as if they were currency themselves, selling at their full listed value.

EDIT: As has been stated earlier, Erylium's awesome dagger is worth a whopping 10,304 gp. Too bad it's Tiny sized, but still, makes for great vendor fodder, still selling for 5,152 gp. One of my players in my campaign took the Favored Son campaign trait, striking up a bond with Ameiko Kaijitsu. This trait enables her to sell off all the gear for the PC herself, increasing the sell-value of items by 10%. On top of that, another player took a trait that allowed the purchasing power of towns to be increased by 10%. I had these effects stack. Anyway, this also means she can make treks to Magnimar and sell stuff for more money, but as a trade off I make the players wait for her to leave and come back before getting their profits.

Ok more questions guys

7. The book mentions that during the fight with Tsuto he will run if all the goblins are killed or if he's dropped low enough in HP. However I don't see HOW he is suppose to get away. I mean the description of the tunnels seems to only lead to NOTHING or the Catacombs. Help please.

8. If the PCs kill Tsuto or capture him before he can run away and they don't wish to follow the tunnels to the Catacombs of Wrath, will this impact the story a lot or just a tiny bit? I mean I guess I could just have random sinspawn attacks to lure the PCs down there later, but just wanting some pointers or ideas from other GMs.

9. If for some reason the PCs miss encountering Tsuto in the Glassworks, thereby never talking to him or getting his journal, how do they find out that Nualia is at Thistletop? Now I'm sure that my group won't actually have this issue but I like to be ready.

10. I haven't read much about Magnimar yet. Can the PCs sell things at full price here? When I get back home I will be able to read up but I'm at work (not working) and writing out stuff from memory.

This is all for now...thanks again.

Grand Lodge

7. Take a look at the description of the smuggler's entrance on page 30. It says that before leading to the catacombs of wrath, it opens up to a narrow beach with remnants of an old goblin campsite strewn about. There's his escape.

8. I'm not sure if what you're asking is "What if the PCs don't discover the smuggler's tunnel?" or "What if they have absolutely no interest in exploring the smuggler's tunnel?" Either way, Tsuto's journal, which is on his person and can be looted, says it all, as depicted on page 33. The second page goes out of its way to mention the smuggler's tunnel leading to the catacombs of wrath. It would be impossible for a party not to get a clue to this place's existence. If the party simply shows no interest in going there...well then that's a pretty bad party. But yes, if they ignore the clues to head to the catacombs then you're right, sending sinspawn into town every-so-often is the best course of action, and is actually what the AP recommends doing (see page 65, Concluding the Chapter).

9. If they truly never meet Tsuto, one of several things could happen. First of all, never meeting Tsuto probably means they never rescue Ameiko, and then he rushes off to Thistletop with her, where she likely will die. If this happens, The PCs have a new purpose, find Ameiko. Ameiko was a former adventurer herself, and would likely be savvy in the tricks of the trade, leaving a trail for the PCs to follow as she's dragged off to Thistletop. The PCs can either follow the trail if they have a ranger amongst them or anybody with an exceptional Survival skill, or hire Shalelu Andosana to track them down.

If they DO rescue Ameiko in the Glassworks, but somehow manage to not encounter Tsuto, then Tsuto does their work for them. He'd likely go and hunt the PCs down, trying to get Ameiko back.

Another outcome, if the PCs REALLY drag their feet and Tsuto makes it back to Thistletop with or without Ameiko, and the PCs never bother going to hunt him down, then their lethargy should be duly punished with the inevitable raid on Sandpoint. Then they'll truly have a fight on their hands:

Nualia (female aasimar cleric of cleric of Lamashtu 4/fighter 2)
Lyrie Akenja (female human wizard 4)
Orik Vancaskerkin (male human fighter 4)
Bruthazmus (male bugbear ranger 1)
Tsuto Kaijitsu (male half-elf monk 2/rogue 2)
Ripnugget (male goblin fighter 5) w/ giant gecko mount
Gogmurt (male goblin druid 4/rogue 1) with firepelt cougar animal companion (assuming he's not left behind to keep an eye on Thistletop)
Koruvus (variant male goblin fighter 2)
Erylium (female quasit witch 3, assuming she's able to get over her fear of leaving the catacombs)
3 Yeth hounds
Plus a huge assortment of goblin warriors, rangers, bards, goblin dogs, and sinspawn.

10) Location doesn't really influence if PCs can sell stuff at full price, only how much money there is available for them to get from selling it. Gear still sells for 50% no matter where they are (possibly more if you want to reward PCs with good RP to haggle). Magnimar has an impressive purchase limit of 75,000 gp, meaning the PCs can sell 75,000 gp worth of stuff before shops are like "go home".

Thank you very much...answered all my questions

I'm fairly sure my party won't have too much of an issue taking in all the clues but again this is my first time as the GM so I wanted to be ready

Please stay tuned as I will very likely have more questions coming since we will be starting this Wednesday

7. As Strife2002 sad, there is exit for Tsuto. Even cornered, he has a good chance to escape (some good roll on acrobatics+withdraw action).

8. Try to lure your party in the tunnels somehow. If Tsuto escapes before they come - describe that there are some footprints on the dusty-dirty floor that go there (and out of there). Say that the wall of the basement was broken from the other side not long ago. Try to press the fact, that the tunnel looks like a serious security problem for the town, and it must be explored sooner than later.

9. Use the crypt encounter, where they find that ashes and bones of previous cleric are missing. There can be some footprints on the other side of wall, that lead from the town into Nettlewood (to Thisletop). Or bring back Shalelu, to help the party find their way there, as Strife2002 sad. And if they have a map of SP hinterlands, don't hide Thisletop location. Goblin fort on an island isn't the place, that can stay hidden for years.
Maybe they'll want to clear the hinterlands from goblin tribes - if it's the case, Thisletop is the first place to hit.

10. I decide that they can sell all in Sandpoint. The purchase limit is 7500 gp for a shop (so every shop has 7500 gp, if I'm understanding the rule rigth), so why not? Even quasit's dagger can be sold here. Jewelry and other precious gear to the jeweler, armor and weapons to Savah/Korvut, magic stuff to principal of Turandarok Academy/owner of The Feathered Serpent. The last two can have even deeper pockets if you make them collectors.
Yes, maybe selling in SP will suck almost all money from the town, but hey, they are the first adventuring party in the town! Why not? Besides, they are local heroes, not some crappy brigands.

Grand Lodge

Ashkar wrote:

10. I decide that they can sell all in Sandpoint. The purchase limit is 7500 gp for a shop (so every shop has 7500 gp, if I'm understanding the rule rigth), so why not? Even quasit's dagger can be sold here. Jewelry and other precious gear to the jeweler, armor and weapons to dSavah/Korvut, magic stuff to principal of Turandarok Academy/owner of The Feathered Serpent. The last two can have even deeper pockets if you make them collectors.
Yes, maybe selling in SP will suck almost all money from the town, but hey, they are the first adventuring party in the town! Why not? Besides, they are local heroes, not some crappy brigands.

Actually the rule is the purchase limit is for the entire settlement, not per shop. That makes more sense when you consider the idea that not every town will be as fleshed out as Sandpoint, and you won't know how many shops there are necessarily. The GMG does a poor job explaining this when it uses the singular "shop" in its description, but makes up for it when it says if you reach the purchase limit, you'll have to go to another town to sell the rest.

Grand Lodge

Also, when it comes to skill rolls to find out where to go next or to research a particular thing, don't forget about the town's stat block. Sandpoint has a Lore modifier of +2, so any Diplomacy checks made to gather information get a +2 bonus, as well as any Knowledge made when using a library to research inside the city. If they can gain admittance to the House of Blue Stones inside Sandpoint (building 19 on the map), the library therein can be used to take advantage of this bonus, not to mention the +4 bonus when specifically using the library to make Knowledge (history) and Knowledge (planes) checks. I asked James Jacobs and yes, these bonuses stack, so using this library to, say, research what on earth a quasit is after they read Tsuto's journal will give them a +6 bonus to their Knowledge (planes) check to get info on the creature.

If Tsuto escapes, it might be worth having him accidentally forget his journal in his rush to flee. The idea is he's busy sleeping off a bender when the party's assault of the glassworks wakes him. It's entirely possible for him to forget his journal in his haste. (Especially since most of the clues for what to do next are in his journal.)

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