David would have fallen.
so essentially, we cannot have divinely empowered holy knights of other alignments and religions? because paladins have to be Speshul. in fact, the historical figures we associate with the paladin class and its legends, aren't anywhere near as pure and virtuous as we give them credit for.
and we both have different ideas of the paladin.
you side with tradition and restriction based upon tradition, and old school ideal, and i side with the newer school of thought that encourages opening up concepts by opening set mechanical packages for open access for the purposes of concepts the game doesn't really support. if you want lawful good paladins, there are plenty of retroclones out there.
but please, let the new concept freedom oriented systems allow the concept freedom oriented ideal of lack of restrictions. the direction many TTRPGs go. even with alternate aligned paladins, the lawful good Sir Roland Clone will still generally be viewed as honorable and trustworthy beyond the other paladins.
but alignment restrictions do not balance a class, they merely encourage loopholes, or particular habits, such as all the paladins in the groups i was in, having a fondness for picking mushrooms, so the group could deal with the problems the paladin couldn't be trusted to handle without staining their conscience.
not neccessarily torturing prisoners, but the king's royal guard executing bandits or the rogue needing to steal a rare key item for a specific ritual from an evil cult leader hiding within the kingdom in disguise.
there are a variety of adventures, including many published ones, where the paladin better get used to going on a brief walk and picking mushrooms and better learn to enjoy it. i think we have established a difference in opinion, and well, i merely want to see paladins able to participate in a grand majority of these published adventures rather than a tiny handful.
i can't seem to persuade you, but a lot of published adventures are unplayable with a paladin in the party unless you forget that the paladin is a paladin and remove his alignment restriction for that adventure or something. but it's not you i need to persuade, it's the staff of PF2E
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The paladin class was made to represent the idea of a dedication to a lawful good mindset. It was not slapped on at the last second for balance. It's what it's supposed to be.
Play a warpriest or an inquisitor.
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so essentially, we cannot have divinely empowered holy knights of other alignments and religions? because paladins have to be Speshul. in fact, the historical figures we associate with the paladin class and its legends, aren't anywhere near as pure and virtuous as we give them credit for.
and we both have different ideas of the paladin.
you side with tradition and restriction based upon tradition, and old school ideal, and i side with the newer school of thought that encourages opening up concepts by opening set mechanical packages for open access for the purposes of concepts the game doesn't really support. if you want lawful good paladins, there are plenty of retroclones out there.
but please, let the new concept freedom oriented systems allow the concept freedom oriented ideal of lack of restrictions. the direction many TTRPGs go. even with alternate aligned paladins, the lawful good Sir Roland Clone will still generally be viewed as honorable and trustworthy beyond the other paladins.
but alignment restrictions do not balance a class, they merely encourage loopholes, or particular habits, such as all the paladins in the groups i was in, having a fondness for picking mushrooms, so the group could deal with the problems the paladin couldn't be trusted to handle without staining their conscience.
not neccessarily torturing prisoners, but the king's royal guard executing bandits or the rogue needing to steal a rare key item for a specific ritual from an evil cult leader hiding within the kingdom in disguise.
there are a variety of adventures, including many published ones, where the paladin better get used to going on a brief walk and picking mushrooms and better learn to enjoy it. i think we have established a difference in opinion, and well, i merely want to see paladins able to participate in a grand majority of these published adventures rather than a tiny handful.
i can't seem to persuade you, but a lot of published adventures are unplayable with a paladin in the party unless you...
This topic is about good examples of Paladins, not for picking a bone with the paladin class as a concept. You're derailing the thread. Make another topic about it.
The paladin class was made to represent the idea of a dedication to a lawful good mindset. It was not slapped on at the last second for balance. It's what it's supposed to be.
Play a warpriest or an inquisitor.
the warpriest and inquisitor wouldn't be needed if the paladin didn't have it's alignment restrictions in the first place. why do we need 3 classes to represent the concept of a holy knight when we could expand one class to represent a portion of the varieties represented by all 3? we have 2 3/4 BAB 6th level spell any alignment holy knights, but some of us want a Full Bab 4th level casting any alignment holy knight with decent self healing that while bearing a similar mechanic set up to the paladin, doesn't bear the name and the associated baggage.
it's not a paladin i want to try in the concept sense, but a holy knight of another of alignment with Full BAB, 4th level divine spells, a challenge/smite mechanic, Cha to Saves, a handful of buffs and decent limited use swift action self heals
in other words. i and a few other people, want the mechanics but we want to see the fluff divorced so we can play a holy knight by another title of another alignment and another religion and apply a different skin to those mechanics. it just happens to be a second concept with Full BAB, 4th level divine spells, a challenge/smite mechanic, Cha to Saves, a handful of buffs and decent limited use swift action self heals. you can change the names even as long as you keep the mechanical package close enough.
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You can do that now.
Inquisitor or Warpriest. Neither have alignment restrictions. Both can be holy warriors. Easily.
Ok so it is the mechanical advantages you're after, not any real attachment to a character concept. Gotcha.
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Samson was not a Paladin. Just studied him recently. If he was, he was given a very lenient GM who eventually decided he wasn't being Lawful Good after he broke EVERY part of his code.
Indeed.
David would have fallen.I think he did ... right off the roof and into Bathsheba's ...
... bath.
Samson was not a paladin.Agreed. He was blessed of YHWH for reasons known to Him, but by no means a paragon of virtue.
Not only that, he didn't decide to cut his hair, someone did it for him, and he still "fell".
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You can do that now.
Inquisitor or Warpriest. Neither have alignment restrictions. Both can be holy warriors. Easily.
Ok so it is the mechanical advantages you're after, not any real attachment to a character concept. Gotcha.
i'm after the mechanical advantages because i plan to represent a series of alternative character concepts one day using those mechanical advantages. i think the mechanical advantages are pretty cool, and a great way to represent a few character concepts such as the Blood Knights and Scarlet Crusade from WoW or something similar.
the Blood Knights were essentially a Chaotic Good order of Blood Elf Paladins with Oath of Vengeance dedicated to punishing the former human and night elf enemies that oppressed them and Scarlet Crusade was a Group of Paladins whom opposed the Scourge and were a Rival of the Argent Crusade, sometimes fighting them, the Scarlet Crusade believed in Enlightenment from the fruits of hard labor, in other words, enlightenment through pain, so they were masochistic paladins, but they weren't good, Lawful? sure. a Scarlet crusader whom didn't get a chance to use a justified use of his swift action self healing was generally seen as a disgrace and coward for not being able to handle the labor of the others. they weren't stupid, but they rarely carried shields, in favor of fighting with a 2hander or fighting with 2 1handers because to them, being at the center of the conflict against the scourge was vital to their beleifs.
Paladins in WoW get their powers from a "puzzle piece Jesus", not by any oath or way of life or any code, really...the Blood Elves syphon their power from one and hold it captive against it's will.
What about that jives at all with being a paladin?
These should not be confused with paladins in Pathfinder.
Also, not all concepts have merit or are worth pursuing, let alone reworking established classes to accomodate them.
Paladins in WoW get their powers from a "puzzle piece Jesus", not by any oath or way of life or any code, really...the Blood Elves syphon their power from one and hold it captive against it's will.
What about that jives at all with being a paladin?These should not be confused with paladins in Pathfinder.
Also, not all concepts have merit or are worth pursuing, let alone reworking established classes to accomodate them.
i'm not the only one whom has ever looked at the paladin mechanics and thought they were a cool and interesting yet balanced set of abilities for a character to have, only to be turned away by the alignment restrictions and the code of conduct. i'm sure there are countless others. if i truly wanted unlimited power without responsibility, i would have simply rolled up a wizard. but then, i don't see highly embellished thousand year old legends about a human from earth as an excuse to restrict a fantasy character's alignment in a fantasy setting where all sorts of supernatural stuff could happen. i also dislike the prominence of the core races with a passion, while i may swallow my pride and play an elf or half elf if i have to, i hate those two races just as much as i hate dwarves, halflings, gnomes, orcs and half orcs and don't want to play a human because i am one in real life, i personally turn towards the fey creatures, the planetouched and the elemental blooded, because i find them more appealing than another axebeard or tree hugging hippie archer. in fact, i find replicating Sir Roland to be a difficult and quite boring activity because his legendary persona is too goodie two shoes to really step into outside of a one shot game. while yes, i am fan of shades of grey more than black and white, i came across a revelation, it's not only the paladin i want to see loosened in restrictions, it is everything, no alignment restrictions for anyone or anything, but to do that, we have to remove alignment entirely, slaughter the sacred cow to make the sacred beef.
maybe i want to build a character whom has identical abilities, but a completely different and possibly incompatible set of beliefs. i can't think of examples on my own, but some people can help me hopefully, but supernatural knight equivalents such as Samurai, Jedi and the like would likely be a good start.
we have a nonmagical samurai class whom fits the historical vision, but not the anime vision, and we have a 3rd party class that can do some jedi things, but not in the way a jedi can truly perform them or in the amount of versatility.
So it sounds more like you need a GM with the same beliefs and likes/dislikes as you rather than the rules to change. Finding that person would likely be quicker and easier than waiting for the Paladin to change.
There are a number of 3PP and 3.5 products to suit your needs. Given that you have (in previous posts) mentioned your hatred of the core races and desire for fey/etc types, and seem to manage to get to play those, I'd think that introducing a variant paladin into your games should be easy as pie.
So it sounds more like you need a GM with the same beliefs and likes/dislikes as you rather than the rules to change. Finding that person would likely be quicker and easier than waiting for the Paladin to change.
There are a number of 3PP and 3.5 products to suit your needs. Given that you have (in previous posts) mentioned your hatred of the core races and desire for fey/etc types, and seem to manage to get to play those, I'd think that introducing a variant paladin into your games should be easy as pie.
i probably could convert the paladin variants from UA, but i have neither the software for clean formatting nor the software to upload them.
i opened it up to accommodate a variety of deities, alignments and religions, and included a patch for neutrality. the name is kind of generic, but it is an alternate class that misses out on some of the paladin abilities and misses out on a lot of the archetypes.
it's smite is weaker than that of a traditional paladin against big name foes, but more versatile in how it applies, and by giving up mercies and channel, it gains additional combat feats, effectively allowing the paladin to be better at healing. i would say it is more combat oriented than a traditional paladin, but not neccessarily stronger. it lost the code of conduct in the transition because the code of conduct is for traditional lawful good paladins and i didn't want to come up with 10 variant codes.
I think this the variant paladin write-up is largely if not entirely inappropriate to this thread. I suggest starting one of your own.
Incidentally, I despise the new class. It's a paladin without a paladin's rightful strictures. I'd neither allow it nor play in a game that did.
that is because it is a crusader built using the paladin chassis rather than a true paladin. don't think of it as a paladin but a generic crusader. it still has to be one step behind it's deity's alignment, which means you can choose your scriptures instead of being forced with a specific set. for crusaders of other faiths.
LOL @ forced.
the Crusader is no more BS than an old man in robes being able use mathematics to turn a handful of bat feces and sulfur into a 45 foot diameter radius globe of fire from over 600 feet away with perfect precision. no way our ballistic technology will ever be that accurate.
it is no more BS than a guy whom can wave around a cross, sprinkle 5,000 gold coins worth of diamond dust and bring a dead guy back to life after ten minutes of prayer. yay, this one guy you can find in any metropolis, can ressurect you by sprinkling a bunch of diamond dust and spending 10 minutes in prayer. if only our world had priests that could do that
it is no more BS than a girl in a fancy dress whom can dance so well, that she gives every ally whom sees her dance, a selective moral bonus to attack and damage rolls. since when did seeing a cute girl dance in a sultry manner give bonuses? shouldn't arousal be a penalty?
it is no more ridiculous than a weasly guy in leather whom can deal more damage to a foe because he simply hates them and they killed his parents. if hate alone were truly a source of power, my damage bonuses would be godlike.
it is no more ridiculous than a native american shaman wearing the hides of beasts from the Sahara desert, whom can transform into prehistoric dinosaurs assumed to be extinct for billions of years, despite having never seen nor studied a dinosaur in his life because they were extinct for billions of years
it is no more ridiculous than a japanese schoolgirl, whom wears black pajamas, whom wields a daisho consisting of a pair of tokugawa wakazashi and can disappear at will
it is no more BS than brain eating space aliens, fire breathing sentient reptiles, or sentient jello
it is no more BS than a medieval English fighter wearing Renaissance era Italian armor designed to combat firearms, worshipping ancient Greek Gods that were banned for over a millenium and wielding a Persian Falchion
it is no more BS than a tiny elf whom could put you to sleep by looking you in the eyes from 30 feet away, could curse you with all sorts of penalties, including a few lethal terminal illnesses, and could use your dead son's skull as a focus to inflict you with eternal suffering while she offers prayers to some old lady called the weaver.
for some reason, we can all suspend our disbelief for stuff like this, but when we see a paladin whom isn't lawful good, a priest whom cheated his god to regain his lost divine powers, or a demon that isn't chaotic evil, we can't suspend it? how many Persian myths include clever third sons whom tricked a godlike being into giving them irrevocable supernatural benefits?
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Horatio Hornblower.
i found out, i would prefer a setting where divine casting and similar stuff is either learned by training or passed by ritual and the gods don't have the active influence they do, allowing divine characters like paladins the desired freedom to do what they wish, while also encouraging the need for heroes and adventurers, because with Pathfinder's setup of overinvolved deities that interact with, influence and control everything, the need for heroes is kinda not there because the gods can do whatever the heck they please with their limitless cosmic power.
i found out, i would prefer a setting where divine casting and similar stuff is either learned by training or passed by ritual and the gods don't have the active influence they do, allowing divine characters like paladins the desired freedom to do what they wish, while also encouraging the need for heroes and adventurers, because with Pathfinder's setup of overinvolved deities that interact with, influence and control everything, the need for heroes is kinda not there because the gods can do whatever the heck they please with their limitless cosmic power.Well, then ... there you go. Find a game like that, and leave us primitives our paladins, thanks.
the issue is it isn't easy to find a game like that, i have to filter through 3 dozen groups whom aren't like that to find 2 groups that are. a long process that takes too much effort. finding such a unique and specialized group is like finding a needle in a haystack, and in my own area, finding a group that allows faeries, while similar to finding a needle in a large haystack, is nowhere near as large a haystack as finding a group that ignores alignment restrictions and encourages open play of whatever concepts you feel without fear of losing your powers. in fact, playing a paladin in any group in my area, for the majority of them, is bound to include a moral dilemma guaranteed to strip your powers with 100% accuracy before you reach level 5. plus i have a schedule to work around, and finding such an accommodating game that doesn't interfere with my food locker job or another gaming group, is even harder than that. both IRL and online.
but when i find a group like that, i will leave your traditional groups your paladins and take my crusader to such a group.
in fact, playing a paladin in any group in my area, for the majority of them, is bound to include a moral dilemma guaranteed to strip your powers with 100% accuracy before you reach level 5.So the local DMs are all jackasses, eh?
...but when i find a group like that, i will leave your traditional groups your paladins and take my crusader to such a group.And I wish you enjoyable gaming when you do.
thank you, i have to deal with Jerkwad DMs and i thank you for your blessing.
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Never read much of the comics, but I've grown fond of the Marvel movies Captain America, and would probably model him if I had to play a paladin.
Personally, I find that the essence of the paladin is more about honour and ethics than about religious devotion.
So I stand diametrically from Umbriere: I'd keep the LG + code thing and toss the whole "pray to a god" thing. Make the paladin's association to a church as mechanically loose and fluff-related as the monk.
I thought this was about examples of paladins to help the OP out, not why Moonwhisper thinks we are all Philistines for preferring only LG paladins. Perhaps I'm mistaken.
Anyways surprised no one mentioned Superman. In most renditions he is pretty LG.
Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, you move."
Don't care what mythology, modern media, anime, or anyone else says. Don't care who else has questionable motives, or engages in questionable means. Don't care if the standard is too rigorous.
Don't let them bring you down. Hold yourself higher.
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