Ogrekin and Closing Location

[Slandor]

We were a bit unsure how to handle location closing on a roll of 4.

When you encounter the Ogrekin, roll 1d4:
1. The difficulty to defeat the Ogrekin is increased by 2; damage dealt by the Ogrekin is reduced by 2.
2. Damage dealt by the Ogrekin is increased by 2.
3. The Ogrekin may not be evaded.
4. After the encounter, put the Ogrekin on the bottom of the location deck.
If defeated, you may immediately attempt to close this location.

We decided since the Ogrekin is put on the bottom of the location deck, the location cannot be closed since "after the Encounter" happens before "resolve the Encounter" and since he isn't around anymore during the resolve step the "if defeated"-text is gone and cannot be applied anymore.

But we were unsure if this is the correct interpretation or if the location can be closed, effectively banishing the henchman with the rest of the deck if successful.

[Pixel Hunter]

Hmmm, I've deleted and retyped what I was going to say a few times because I just don't know. My first thought was there should be an "if undefeated" added to the 4th line. But then I thought that a roll of 4 would be a bad thing and force you to have to find him again. But then you'd think there should be a "and you may not close the location" tacked onto the end.

[Erixian]

This is interesting. I think that you can still close the location. The effect to place him on the bottom of the deck is only to penalize you if you do not defeat him or close the location. He is still defeated, so you are able to use the 'If defeated...' text. However, if you did not defeat him, he would be placed at the bottom of the deck instead of being shuffled in, making it more difficult to close the location, because you have to burn through the whole thing.

You will just remove the Ogrekin from the deck if you close the location. It is really the same as defeating a villain in a deck that also has a henchman in it.

[Hawkmoon269]

This is during the Them Ogres Ain't Right scenario, correct?

Them Ogres Ain't Right wrote:

If you defeat a henchman, place it in a stack next to this card. The difficulty to defeat Mammy Graul is increased by 1 per card in this stack.

So the Power #4 on the Graul Ogrekin henchman won't matter, because the Scenario's power will trump the Monster's power, via the Golden Rule:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qich?Graul-Ogrekin-Place-on-Bottom-of-Location -Deck#6 (Read that post and the next 3 after it.)

So the Graul Ogrekin henchman goes up by Mammy Graul when you defeat him and then you may immediately attempt to close the location.

Also, Power #4 has no effect on him being defeated or undefeated. He still counts as defeated, he just would go to the bottom of the deck. So, hypothetically, if the Graul Ogrekin henchman was in a scenario without an efffect like the "Them Ogres Ain't Right" power, you would put him on the bottom then still attempt to close. If you succeed, you'd banish the location deck, including him. If you failed, running into him again would give you another shot to close the location before removing all the cards from the location deck.

But I don't think you'll ever see that. The only way the #4 power will have an effect, because of the scenario rule) is if you fail to defeat him he won't be shuffled, he'll be on the bottom. And that means that it will take you the maximum number of explorations to reach him. Unless you play Augury or Brodert Quink or something.

[Slandor]

Since Mike said it, it's official ruling. But this does contradict the encounter timing rules from the faq:

•Apply any effects that happen after the encounter, if needed. Do this whether or not you succeeded at your checks. At this time, deal with any effects that were triggered by the checks. For example, If Ezren played a spell with the Arcane trait during the check, he may now use his power that allows him to examine the top card of his deck.
•Resolve the encounter. If you succeed at all of the checks required to defeat a bane, banish it; if you don’t succeed, it is undefeated— shuffle the card back into its location deck. If you succeed at a check to acquire a boon, put it in your hand; otherwise, banish it."

In my interpretation, the ogrekin is put under the deck the step before the golden scenario rule is triggered, so he cannot end up under Mammy Graul because he is already under the location deck.

This is a different question from whether you're allowed to close the location or not, though. And I can live with the ruling that his "if defeated" ability still applies even if he is already under the location deck.

[Hawkmoon269]

Here is how I see it:

Them Ogres Ain't Right wrote:

If you defeat a henchman, place it in a stack next to this card. The difficulty to defeat Mammy Graul is increased by 1 per card in this stack.

Rulebook v3 p22 wrote:

Cards Do What They Say. Read any card as it is encountered or played, and do whatever it says as soon as it makes sense to do so.

It makes sense to apply the scenario rule as soon as any other action with a defeated henchman would conflict with the scenario rule. After you succeed at the check, the henchman is defeated. You don't have to wait until the "Resolve the encounter" step to know that it is defeated. So following #4 of the Graul Ogrekin henchman's power would conflict with the scenario rule, so follow the scenario rule instead.