I would create a Minion (Undeads) Controller starting by 1st level with 20BP.
What i would do is simple: create/summon/animate/everythingelsepossible strongest (so i prefer less but good) undead minions, skilled and useful (maybe flying? with trip? other skills? i'm a totally newbie to pathfinder...always played D&D3.5)
The andventure that i'm going to play is reach of undeads.
The sources i can use are: Paizo and D&D3.5 (with conversion and DM approval)
All tips are welcome!
I say sorry if i made some language mistakes but i'm an half italian/half french guy!
Wish to thanks in advance all that will write something!
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First of all, don't believe people when they say that you should be a cleric and that clerics are the best necromancers in PF. They are mistaken. This was generally true in 3.5e, where the cleric and a non-PF/3.5e exclusive class called the dread necromancer where always the superior options for necromancer. However, in PF the three best classes are actually the Oracle, Undead Bloodline Sorcerer and Wizard/Agent of the Grave. Out of the three, the wizard/agent of the grave is the absolute best, but if you don't want to deal with prestige classes the other two will suffice.(Wizard WITHOUT agent of the grave, however, is actually the worst option for minionmastery unless you are a curoromancer) The reason for this? Well, there are several.
The main one however is this: intelligent undead > unintelligent undead. When you look at all three options I presented, they all have one thing in common: they are good at commanding and keeping control of intelligent undead. The command undead feat is bad. I will stat this flat out. As far as controlling intelligent undead goes, the command undead feat is a poor way to do it as they get a save EVERY DAY. Now, for the aforementioned cleric or the wizard without the agent of the grave prestige class, this effectively means they cannot safely make use of intelligent undead as command undead has a CHARISMA-based save, which they get EVERY DAY, and charisma is a DUMB STAT for the wizard and cleric class(Unless your building to abuse channeling, which 90% of clerics don't). The Oracle, however, has a leg up on the cleric and non-agent necro wizard in that their casting stat is charisma, meaning that their save will be significantly higher then the wizard and cleric. With feat/item investment, your command undead save should be high enough that you can -reasonably- make use of some intelligent undead. This already puts you leagues ahead of the non-agent wizard and the cleric.
However, if you REALLY want to be good at commanding intelligent undead, you're going to be Arcane. Yeah, you get Animate Dead a bit later then the cleric or Oracle, but in return you get something very valuable; the ability to make -extensive- use of intelligent undead. The most simple way to do this is to be an undead bloodline sorcerer. Yeah, the undead bloodline overall is not that great, but the bloodline arcana makes it one of the best necromancy classes in the game. Why? Because you can now use -dominate person- on intelligent undead. Because of this, you don't need the command undead feat. Instead of giving your intelligent undead pawns a save every day vs. a dump stat, you give them one every some odd WEEKS vs. YOUR CASTING STAT. You can already see how this is vastly superior to command undead.
However, while the sorcerer gets this ability for free at level 1, the agent of the grave prestige class also grants you a STRONGER version of this ability. While this at first may seem like a way to make the cleric #1 again it's not.....unlike 3.5e, Clerics have no way to get Dominate Person as a spell in Pathfinder. There is no domain that grants it and currently no feat that adds it to your spell list. Not even a Kitsune's magic tails will work as the class feature does not apply to SLAs.(And besides, the magic tail feats suck) However, what this does mean is that you can now use the undead sorcerer's same dominate person on intelligent undead trick....with a wizard. A wizard with the agent of the grave prestige class thus becomes the best of the best at necromancy. With agent of the grave they are the best controller of intelligent undead in the game, can match the numbers clerics and oracles can produce with animate dead via getting desecrate as a class feature, can now heal their undead with their negative energy touch and are overall awesome at necromancy.
In addition, Arcane Necromancers have another major thing going for them that divine one's don't: Blood Money. That spell is perhaps the most valuable resource a Necromancer can have. With the right items, that spell will allow you to never have to worry about having enough black onyx to animate your minions...ever...and just like Dominate Person, there is -no- way for clerics to add it to their spells.
As far as feats are concerned, you'll want to buff animate dead's caster level as much as possible. To do this, you'll want to take Mage's Tattoo(Necromancy), Spell Specialization(Animate Dead), Undead Master, and Spell Perfection(Animate Dead). When you get all those feats, you'll be able to produce massive amounts of undead as Animate Dead gets a whooping +6 to it's caster level, and in addition has it's caster level treated as 8 levels higher for many purposes. You will be able to animate FAR more undead then you'll be able to control, mind you, but this isn't a bad thing. Why? Read the spell Animate Dead. Any excess undead you animate with it remain under your control so long as you don't create any more undead/use the spell again. Of course, if your undead supply gets depleted enough where you have well under the amount of undead you can control, you can safely cast animate dead again so long as you don't excede your control pool and if you lose -all- your undead then you can cast at your full animation capacity without having to worry. This trick is how clerics where able to get so many undead in 3.5e....the deathbound domain allowed them to animate well over the amount they could control normally, but by being careful with their castings of animate dead they retained control of the excess created with a single casting. In PF, that line of feats gives you an effect similar to this, so any aspiring minionmaster should take all of them.
Anyway....hope that advice helped a bit! :3
EDIT: Just saw now that you can use 3.5e. In that case...ignore all the above advice and play a dread necromancer. No seriously. Just go on D&D tools and look up the Dread Necromancer class. The Dread Necromancer is THAT GOOD at minionmastery. They can control and create more undead then ANYBODY. Also, you'll want to get the corpsecrafter line of feats from 3.5e as well. Dread Necromancer is from "Heroes of Horror" and corpsecrafter is from "Libris Mortis" Look both up ASAP. Dread Necromancer is THAT GOOD. If you can't be a dread necromancer, then just ask your DM if you can use 3.5e cleric domains and be a cleric with the deathbound domain, domination domain and agent of the grave prestige class. You'll lose your 8th level domain powers, yeah, but in return you'll be AWESOME at necromancy and will have -dominate person- as a domain spell. Also ask your DM if you can be a 3.5e -cloistered cleric-(The PF version SUCKS) to get the knowledge domain for free, and thus get at least some domain powers.
it helped A LOT! Really!
so your tip is to go with Dread Necromancer... now my question is: is there a place where i can find that already converted for PF? (think the DM will allow that class, he said "we can also use D&D3.5 and convert for PF [He's, like me, a fan of D&D3.5... but i still prefer PF XD!])
for now i really thank you..now things seems to be a little clear in my mind!
Maybe if you have others suggestions to make up a 1st level Dread Necromancer with 20BP it will be very cool.. maybe with a little progression (or simple order of that, only to make an idea)
EDIT: i've googled it...a lot of discussion but no one seems to have made the conversion...
here on the forum i found this: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q8zn?Dread-Necromancer-Conversion#1
but there aren't comments, so i'm not sure that it works...
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no for PFS
You can not use any third party publications for PFS. any 3.5 material and all feats, skills, classes, ext ext are banned from use in PFS.
There is a Downloadable document on what is legal for PFS. If it is not on the list then it is not allowed.
Back to original tangent on the Thread.
Takisis is correct in a lot of what he says. Follow his advice on this.
I would also consider some pathfinder feats as well. I know Undead Master is pretty decent. It doubles your duration when you cast command undead. Also allows you to animate at 4 higher HD.
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If you need a conversion for the Dread Necromancer to PF I can provide it. However, I am lazy right now so I'll do it later. When I get around to it, I will post it in the homebrew board and link the thread here. There is already a conversion in existence, but it is grossly overpowered and thus your DM most likely won't allow it. I can make a -better- conversion easily enough, since the Dread Necromancer is the class I know the absolute best out of every edition. (PF included)
Thank you Takhisis..that will be very very cool! i'm not able to do it, and i will use dread necromancer...
by the way, what stats should i consider to play a Dread Necro? What should i dump?
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Charisma is your most important stat since it's your casting stat and powers all your class features. After that you'll want dexterity for survival(you only get light armor), some strength(though you can get away with this being lower if you wish) if you plan on going into melee at all(which is actually an option at low levels seeing as you get some good damage reduction and -infinite- out of battle healing if you take the tomb-tained soul feat from 3.5e, become a necropolitian or choose dhampire as your race.). Finally, you only get 2+ int skill points, so Int should not be dumped. The only real "dumb stat" you have is wisdom. Constitution can be dumped if your DM will allow you to become a necropolitian(3.5e undead template aimed at player characters. The fastest you can do this is third level, which, if your DM allows you WILL do. Necropolitian is also from Lbris Mortis.), but if not just get the bare minimum needed to get by, as eventually you'll become a lich anyway and before then you have more self-healing then even a cleric.(Provided you are a dhampire, necropolitian or have tomb-tained soul.) However, your #1 stat will be charisma, as that is not only your casting stat but the stat that powers all your class features AND you eventually get to control 4 + Your Cha-mod HD of undead per level with Animate Dead instead of the usual 4 HD per level that you normally get.
I've already started working on the conversion, but sadly won't have it up today due to school.
Thank you so much, and take your time! Life comes before game (i'm liying XD!!)
ah and can i use light armour without spell failure?
for melee: it's better to stay out or jump in it? i don't know how dread necro is because i never played one.. is more like a warlock than a caster?
for COS: supposing i'm using half-undead race, the text say something about i need to have 10 (probably i'm wrong)
for the race i explain: i was playing a dwarf before this PC... now my DM said that i can create my race, 'cause he want i hold (if possible) the dwarf appearance (only that).. if you have some tips.. for now i'm trying to build it with the same points as the dwarf (11)
i was looking at those : humanoid/ half-undead(dwarf+undead) / Outsider(native)
for the Lich: i really loves liches... but i don't know if my dm will allow me to become one (*sadly*)..
supposing he will say yes... how to do that? o.O i really don't know how i can become a lich
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How do you become a lich? Simple, you take 20 levels of dread necromancer. The -capstone- ability of the dread necromancer class is transformation into a lich. Also, if you want to be undead and look like a dwarf, necropolitian should do the trick. Just be sure that when you create your race to assure you don't have the dwarven cha-penalty, as dread necromancers rely heavily on charisma...and as for spellcasting, your more like a sorcerer then a warlock. you are a fullcaster, with 9th level spells and spontainous spellcasting(like a sorc). However, instead of having spells known like a sorc, you have a fixed spell list that is highly specalized(towards necromancy stuff) and as soon as you are able to cast a spell level you automatically can spontainously cast any spells on your spell list of that level. Essentually, like a cleric, you get your entire spell list, but like a sorc you are spontainous. To make up for this emense versatility your spell list is tightly focused on necromancy, moreso then even a sorcerer and while the sorc will have less known spells then you will, his smaller list will likely be more broad while your spells are focused on -necromancy-. However, because of this, you are the best necromancer in the game, as your class features allow you to be the absolute best character at dealing with undead minions.
As for melee, it depends on how large your party is and how -useful- you want to feel at low levels. At low levels, you are a decent backup fighter and most of your best spells and class features require you to get in close. Between infinite out of battle self-healing, damage reduction and your negative energy touch for damage and touch spells like chill touch you can be an alright "gish" at low levels. You also are great at fear-abuse, and with your fear aura and some 3.5e feats I forget the name of you can make many opponents you face in melee literally just cower in front of you. At mid-high levels, however, you become far less melee viable and are basically best served by being a caster and undead animator. You can control more undead then anybody and get some powerful offensive spells and debuffs. Your build should be made to reflect this part of the class rather then melee...melee is something you do at low levels if you want to feel like your contributing, and something you can do with minimal investment due to your class features and touch spells. Heck, even at 10 strength you can be -ok- at melee if you relly on touch spells and your negative energy touch for damage instead of trying to swing around the one martial weapon you chose to get proficiency in.(Dread Necros get one martial weapon proficiency for free.) At higher levels, don't melee...let your pets do that. You can be doing better things like laying down debuffs and AOE spells that make life easier for your army of undead. Thus, the best feats to take are things that boost your miniom-making, such as the corpsecrafter feats and undead master.(The conversion I am making gets command undead for free, so you don't have to spend a feat on that.)
okk thank you again.
the party is: Bard (detective Archetype)- Inquisitor(Iomedae)- Wizard (Invocation)
i don't really need to go in melee.. i prefer doing my spellcasting and let my minions gain their bread (LOL)
now my DM has decided to edit the dwarf race himself... i will give me tomorrow 3 alternate (no one of those will have dump at CAR).
Necropolitian i don't know what it do XD! in wich book i can find that?
My DM as also decided that for his campaign i will be Evil..he said it's the only reason he can explain my role.. so i will be an Evil Lich (at 20th) XD wonderful!
(thank you for the conversion... i know that undead master feat is already converted for PF... but corpsecrafter and necropolitian?)
Another thing i must do is finding a way to hide my evil allignement and my evil aura(if any)... how could i do that?
@Tin Foil: thank you for the advice... i've already read Juju Oracle, and yes my DM allow that.. but i feel those "good" undead a little bit nonsense..
thank you for the advice!
i'm thinking the solution you give me, lost in powers and flavour...dread necromancer become a lich at 20th (*_* flavour!) and have a lot of class features.
BTW i found feats very usefuls, so thank you!
1) how do i get the spell "blood money"? isn't in my spell-list
2) DM will not allow dragon magazine nor templates or edit spell(cantrips)
3) Bloody skeleton...how do i normally(legally) get them?
4) Armor and weapons i think he will allow that.. i will need a convertion btw
5) I don't know if he will let me convert all feats... when we started he said "if u see something that you like in D&D3.5 tell me and we can talk about and see to convert". So here's my question: What are most important Feats for my Dread Necro (see "Must Have") ?
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For my conversion, you'll be able to add the spell blood money to your class spell list with advance learning. I am -altering- the way advance learning works to allow you to pick up spells like -blood money- and -dominate person- as a dread necromancer, though a bit later then other classes would get them.
okk i thank you so much takhisis .. but try to make up a conversion that is "legal" (don't wanna see my DM don't allow that because is broken... and also don't wanna ruin party's playing)
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The fix to advance learning is not my own. It actually comes from 3.5e. In 3.5e, the warmage, which was a class that was similar to the dread necromancer except it was based on evocation instead of necromancy, got advance learning as well, but also got an ACF who's name I forget(Something along the lines of eclectic learning?) that allowed it to use advance learning to add evocation spell of any level they could cast OR any spell of any spell level below the highest level they could cast. I'm basically giving the dread necromancer the -same- option, but not as an ACF. Instead, it will be the "default" version of advance learning that they get for PF. They don't get many of these spells, though, and as stated they get them well after other classes would, so in the end it is balanced.
Also, just so you know, the dread necromancer class I am making is basicly -incidental- to the 3.5e one except for the change to advance learning, trading rebuke for command undead and alterations to skills and the spell list(which will be very minior. In fact, the only changes I am making are that I will be adding Magic Circle, getting rid of the double death ward issue, moving animate dead down to level 3 spells and adding desecrate and Lesser Animate Dead.). Other then those changes, pretty much it will be word for word the 3.5e class.
okk you're more experienced than me on that class...so i'm in your hands!
the only thing needed is balance... if it's balanced it's really good!
any news dear Takhisis?
still waiting for some help! if someone has other suggestions..
so give some explanation on why that..
sorry...understand only now that was a link lol