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If one observes RAW to the letter, is there, currently, a way to play a CG paladin of Cayden?
If not, what is the best CURRENT alternative on the market? (loads of books have come out since the OP asked the question, including books like Ultimate Intrigue and a host of companions that I am no longer fully caught up on...)
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AFAIK the closest you can get is a Gray Paladin from Ultimate Intrigue.
Gray paladins have discovered that in a world of intrigue, a strict code of honor hinders their options. Their divergence from the paladin's normal code still drains them, but somehow, they have found a way to avoid losing all of their powers.
Alignment: A gray paladin can be lawful good, lawful neutral, or neutral good, though she must still follow a lawful good, neutral good, or lawful neutral deity.
This alters the paladin's alignment restrictions.
Code of Conduct: A gray paladin must be of lawful good, lawful neutral, or neutral good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act (for example, casting a spell with the evil descriptor). She should strive to act with honor and uphold the tenets of her faith, but failing to do so is not a violation of her code, and other than evil actions, she can do whatever else she feels is necessary to uphold the causes of law and good.
This ability replaces the paladin's code of conduct and associated abilities and alters the section on ex-paladins.
Which is still pretty far from CG paladin of CG deity.
Can you be a Paladin of a Chaotic Good deity? Yes. There are no rules requiring paladins to worship specific deities, or deities at all, nor are there rules requiring the deity you worship be within one step as you.
Can you be a Paladin of Cayden Caillean specifically? No. At this point you're not dealing with the rules of the game, but rather the rules of the campaign setting Golarion, which has a seemingly unspoken rule that not only does all worship have to be within one alignment step, but paladins are required to worship a deity when they previously did not.
I'd definitely prefer if they wrote this down somewhere in their campaign setting books, but this is as far as I can tell us the case.
I always read it as the rule for "you must worship a deity within one step of your alignment" as applying exclusively to Clerics (and by extension warpriests). Everybody else is free to worship whatever deity whose portfolio is most relevant to their interests.
There's absolutely nothing weird about a chaotic good ship captain who worships Gozreh. Nor should a ship captain be required to be within one step of true neutral in order to worship the deity most relevant to sailing.
Since Paladins don't get their power from a deity (you're free to have a paladin who worships no diety, or who respects a great number of deities equally), they're as free to worship whatever deity they like just like fighters or wizards, provided that this worship does not conflict with the paladin's code, and "whether the worship of a deity conflicts with the paladin's code" should come down to what, precisely, the worship of that deity involves not "what alignment does that deity have."
But I imagine this, like all issues involving how Paladins ought to be, will involve significant table variation.
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the rules in alignment say your deity must be within one step of your's.
The core rulebook specifies that a cleric's alignment must be within one step of their deity's. It does not put any such restriction on the alignment of fighters, wizards, gunslingers, or other non-clerics. Anybody who's not a cleric is free to worship any god they like regardless of their alignment, whether or not this will cause problems (either with their deity or their alignment) is something to be worked out in the course of play not at character generation.
This may be a PFS rule, or an extremely common house rule, but it is not a game rule.
The core rules don't even specify what it means to "have" or "worship" or "venerate" a deity, except for clerics. The Golarion setting adds some unwritten rules about this; PFS writes them down. If you're not in PFS, and especially if you're not in Golarion, no book rule says you have to pick a god to worship in the first place.
Outside of organized play, "setting rules" are really just guidelines anyway. Since the players have narrative agency, they're allowed to change the world in big ways, and it's hardly heretical for a GM to take a published character or setting and tweak it to better fit their game.
But if the GM wants to gender-swap a published NPC because it fits their game better, change a detail in a kingdom's system of government to enable a plot point, or if in the course of the events of a campaign have a published city razed to the ground, no one would accuse them of anything remotely resembling "playing the game wrong."
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This ins't something you can get a "correct" answer on.
Ultimately this topic always comes down to the same thing: This is something you have to work out with your GM. If you are the GM then great, simply decide you want to allow Paladins to worship gods further than 1 step from their alignment. If you're in PFS then you just have to accept that your Paladin can only worship a god within that 1 step of its alignment.
its common sense a paladin is a divine class therefore it needs a divine source.
Nothing about "metaphysics" is ever common sense. The rules say a cleric can venerate an idea instead of a deity, and don't lose their spells by doing so. So there's obviously a divine source other than "the will of a specific Deity."
I mean, Druids are divine casters and they get their powers from "Nature" the abstract concept and not any gods in particular. Who's to say Paladins can't just get their spells from "Goodness" and "Law" as abstract concepts?
Remember that Paladins get into trouble by violating their personal code of conduct, not from violating the precepts of any particular god.
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When I think holy warrior of Cayden I think Urban Drunken Rager Celestial Totem Barbarian 5/Liberator 1/Chevalier 3.
Or multiclass with oracle and go Rage Prophet for more divine spells.
Sprinkle with Daring Champion if you want it a bit more knightly
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If one observes RAW to the letter, is there, currently, a way to play a CG paladin of Cayden?
If not, what is the best CURRENT alternative on the market? (loads of books have come out since the OP asked the question, including books like Ultimate Intrigue and a host of companions that I am no longer fully caught up on...)
For a base class, Warpriest is probably your best option.
For prestige classes, I would consider the previously mentioned Chevalier as well as the Sentinel from Inner Sea Gods.
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Sorry if this has been brought up already, I haven't read the whole thread.
JJ has addressed this a few times. His reasoning, in a nutshell, is as follows: A paladin is a follower of both law and good, the archetypal "knight in shining armor." Paladins aren't bound to their deity like a cleric is, but will have fundamental doctrinal problems with deities that aren't within one step of Lawful Good. For OP's example, a paladin would have a hard time with the "individual freedom" tenants of Cayden Cailean beyond simply being anti-slavery-- Cayden Cailean sees no problem with breaking laws (even if he doesn't outright encourage it), which runs counter to a paladin's outlook. Even True Neutral deities like Pharasma or Nethys are problematic for a paladin, because they don't care whether you follow laws or do the right thing-- they have their own agendas, which will occasionally coincide with a paladin's goals but overall aren't very paladin-like.
But I think "working through the Hegelian dialectic between the importance of law and individual freedom and coming out with the synthesis of those ideals" is an opportunity for a great character arc and some really interesting RPing from a good RPer, so it's not something we should just bar at character generation.
Like, theoretically a Paladin believes that law and order is essential to individual freedom because no one may be free who feels afraid, that the ultimate barrier to individual freedom is people who abuse their own freedom to harm others (the proverbial "the right to swing my arms around stops when I hit you in the face.")
It may be impossible to synthesize the two ideas, but I'd very much like to see players try and really try to resolve those tensions. But in terms of "a Golarion CG deity that is easy for a Paladin to follow" Desna is probably a better choice than Cayden; literally nothing Desna asks of her followers is a problem for Paladins.
I would observe, however, that a Paladin does not need to be an actual advocate for a God like a Cleric does, they can simply follow a deity in a manner naive to doctrinal intricacies like any random citizen might. Barring actual intervention by the deity in question, "your worship, albeit sincere,is wrong" is unlikely to come up.
JJ has no power unless it's given to him(by following his weird, sometimes game screwing up ideas of what is right in his game) when someone else runs a game in Golorian that isn't PFS.
For that matter, the PDT has said over and over again dev posts don't counts as rules.
JJ has posted that paladins in golarion must follow the 1 alignment deviation rule for deity. Obviously, he is not a rules guy, but does set the RAI for the game. If you are running your own game and want to do things your own way, no one is going to argue with you.
In PFS only, if you want to "worship" (i.e. gain mechanical benefits from traits, feats, symbols, opposed/favored enemy, etc) a deity (and you can only "worship" one at a time), then you need to be no more than one step away.
Outside of that, it's up to the GM and his table to define the rule.
While there are many Pathfinder rules that do not make a lot of sense to me, none is worse imho than the rule that all paladins have to be LG. With that said, it is impossible to be a paladin of Cayden Cailean since his alignment chart is CG, NG, CG.
The actually concept of paladin is holy warrior for a deity, not some overzealous policeman upholding the law. For that you have hellknights.
Is there a workaround for this or does PF throw its hands in the air and just say not all good aligned deities have paladins?
That's correct. For Caydien and Desna, and the like, you have the WarPriest.
Or you could adapt the chaotic good Anti-Paladin archetype Clinton Boomer created for Desna.
I don't like "the Warpriest is an alternative to the Paladin" because I fundamentally see those classes as different things. A Warpriest is a true believer on the edge of zealotry and a direct advocate for a deity; their cause is to advance the cause of whichever god or goddess they follow. On the other hand, the Paladin is a warrior first and foremost who is extraordinarily principled and honorable and is devoted to helping the innocent and punishing the guilty.
Whether or not a Paladin worships any god at all ought to be secondary to their commitment to their code in terms of defining who they are. Regardless of their religion (or lack thereof) I see a Paladin is a person who is so fundamentally good that the universe itself invests in their well-being.
In other words, Warpriests (even of good gods) can and often are jerks. Paladins are almost never jerks ("being a jerk" is an early indicator of falling.) "Holier than thou" should never describe a Paladin, but basically defines the Warpriest.
I don't like "the Warpriest is an alternative to the Paladin" because I fundamentally see those classes as different things. A Warpriest is a true believer on the edge of zealotry and a direct advocate for a deity; their cause is to advance the cause of whichever god or goddess they follow. On the other hand, the Paladin is a warrior first and foremost who is extraordinarily principled and honorable and is devoted to helping the innocent and punishing the guilty.
Whether or not a Paladin worships any god at all ought to be secondary to their commitment to their code in terms of defining who they are. Regardless of their religion (or lack thereof) I see a Paladin is a person who is so fundamentally good that the universe itself invests in their well-being.
In other words, Warpriests (even of good gods) can and often are jerks. Paladins are almost never jerks ("being a jerk" is an early indicator of falling.) "Holier than thou" should never describe a Paladin, but basically defines the Warpriest.
That's funny, everything you've said about WarPriests, including some being jerks, word for word is what how I generally hear people speak and write about Paladins.
PFS also requires paladins to worship a deity. In home games, the GM decides.
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JJ has no power unless it's given to him(by following his weird, sometimes game screwing up ideas of what is right in his game) when someone else runs a game in Golorian that isn't PFS.
For that matter, the PDT has said over and over again dev posts don't counts as rules.
That's a crass thing to say. AFAIK JJ is responsible for a huge chunk of Golarion's creation, which he adapted from his home campaign.
I have learned tons about Golarion by visiting his thread. He puts an insane amount of time answering questions there, treating everyone with an alarming equality, whether the questions are downright stupid or so intricate you wonder about some of the fans' sanity...
I for one really appreciate his input. I for one really am glad he corrected the 'Paladins of Asmodeus' thing. He also does so by not disparaging the authors of such 'retconned' concepts and usually takes the blame by saying 'it's my fault, I should have caught that before that went to print'. You can also argue that some of the concepts that were retconned were worthy of their first release anyway, as they probably inspired some campaigns out there that *did* make "Paladins of Asmodeus" a big deal. If some GMs want to explore that concept, great! Not my cup of tea, but if it inspired others in having fun that way, I'm glad it saw, briefly, the light of day, sparked a conversation, then died the horrible death it deserved with a "JJ" calling card left on the body...
The setting has evolved since its release (as evidenced by two campaign setting books and a myriad of updates such as Inner Sea Gods). To say that his ideas are 'game screwing' is just so strange as he is, as far as I can see, the main essence of Golarion. He has an innate grasp on this world and what makes it go round. He's had a hand in most of its development, yet, he doesn't hesitate to say, when need be, that "this part of Golarion is so and so's baby, so ask that person".
If he says paladins and clerics need a god in Golarion, but not oracles and druids, then I'm fine with that. However I can only recall for sure that he mentioned CLERICS *NEED* a god to worship... I'm not so sure he said that about paladins. Here's some of his answers on that, plucked from his thread:
1) There are no pantheistic clerics or clerics who worship philosophies. That's an element that crept into Pathfinder from D&D, and one that we've expunged from the game... at least as far as our Campaign Setting (and thus, Gods & Magic) is involved. Oracles are the divine casters that are the most appropriate to worship pantheons and philosophies. The GM of course gets to overrule that if she wants. But in Golarion, the rule is if you're a cleric, you worship a single deity. The act of worshiping a single deity in return for powers is the fundamental core and truth of the cleric class, after all.
5) A cleric must worship a single deity because clerics use domains, and only deities grant domains. Other divine spellcasting classes who don't have abilities based on gaining domains can worship pantheons or ideals or philosophies, so you can certainly do this with an oracle or the like. But for the most part, divine spellcasters in Pathfinder worship single deities, and for clerics that's 100% true.
2) There are clerics of Abadar among them (hence the "Associated Religions" listing of Abadar in the entry on page 237 of the Inner Sea World Guide). There are no "clerics of the Prophecies of Kalistrade" since that is a philosophy, not a deity, and as such it can't grant domains. There's certainly plenty of bards in the group though. There's also certainly some oracles, but not in big enough numbers to be notable apart from most other classes.
Whether or not a Paladin worships any god at all ought to be secondary to their commitment to their code in terms of defining who they are. Regardless of their religion (or lack thereof) I see a Paladin is a person who is so fundamentally good that the universe itself invests in their well-being.
That more or less is the case, which is why (outside of PFS) paladins aren't required to follow a deity at all. But if they do follow a deity, it needs to be one they can get on board with. A Neutral Good deity, for example, might not emphasize order as much as a paladin does, but generally speaking all her tenants will be things a paladin can get on board with. A Lawful Evil deity mandates law and order, but encourages his followers to abuse laws for their own personal gain-- not at all paladin-worthy. A Chaotic Good deity wants his followers to do the right thing, but doesn't care in the slightest if they break laws doing it-- also not paladin-worthy.
In the real world, you see people follow religions whose tenants they disagree with all the time-- it's called cognitive dissonance, and they generally just employ some mental gymnastics to get around it. But in game, when you're talking about deities with provable existence and who grant supernatural powers, you don't really have that luxury.
The thing is that generally Chaotic Good deities don't want you to break the law to do the right thing, they want you to do the right thing regardless of the law. It's theoretically possible to do the right thing while figuring out a way to follow the law, so your lawful good tendencies and your chaotic good deity will both be satisfied. This is basically the plot of every good Superman comic: That Supes can solve the problem he faces is not in question, the question is how he's going to do it without violating his own principles.
I'm not saying that RPing a LG paladin of a CG deity is easy, I'm saying it would require sufficiently intricate RPing by a decent roleplayer that I want to see it in action (or maybe just do it myself.) Desna's the obvious choice among the CG Golarion deities for "ease of Paladins following" I think. She doesn't ask her followers to do anything remotely chaotic (be ready, wander, make friends, follow your gut, learn from people who are different from you).
But I want to observe that the "within one step of their deity" rule is explicitly for direct advocates for one deity or another (Clerics and Warpriests). A Paladin can be "world's best everyman or everywoman" whose religious beliefs are no more involved than any random commoner's. If you are actively a member of a religious institution or claim to speak on behalf of a Deity, being too far from their alignment is going to cause problems. But there's absolutely nothing remotely odd about a Chaotic Good ship captain worshiping true neutral Gozreh. Outside of ordained members of the church of whomever, I don't think the one step alignment rule should even apply.
But I want to observe that the "within one step of their deity" rule is explicitly for direct advocates for one deity or another (Clerics and Warpriests). A Paladin can be "world's best everyman or everywoman" whose religious beliefs are no more involved than any random commoner's. If you are actively a member of a religious institution or claim to speak on behalf of a Deity, being too far from their alignment is going to cause problems. But there's absolutely nothing remotely odd about a Chaotic Good ship captain worshiping true neutral Gozreh. Outside of ordained members of the church of whomever, I don't think the one step alignment rule should even apply.
You're absolutely right, and it's easy to forget that when making a character whose class features don't rely on their deity. A commoner, or even a non-divine-casting adventurer, can worship a deity whose alignment is as far from their own as they like. I always took the paladin as sort of an exception-- it's not in a paladin's way to be a lackluster follower of anything, so she needs a religion she can dive into completely. But I guess there's some room for interpretation there.
Or you could adapt the chaotic good Anti-Paladin archetype Clinton Boomer created for Desna.
Link please?
1) There are no pantheistic clerics or clerics who worship philosophies. That's an element that crept into Pathfinder from D&D, and one that we've expunged from the game... at least as far as our Campaign Setting (and thus, Gods & Magic) is involved. Oracles are the divine casters that are the most appropriate to worship pantheons and philosophies. The GM of course gets to overrule that if she wants. But in Golarion, the rule is if you're a cleric, you worship a single deity. The act of worshiping a single deity in return for powers is the fundamental core and truth of the cleric class, after all.
Technically true.. you do have priests of the Green Faith, but I believe they are mostly druids. And the Green Faith isn't an abstract "philosophy" like worshipping War, but grounded in the setting.
Link please?
Or you could adapt the chaotic good Anti-Paladin archetype Clinton Boomer created for Desna.
He's made a few more since last I checked. here are my Google search results.
I'd never allow someone to have a non-LG Paladin without an extensive archetype. The Lawful requirement is their dedication to their code and to righteousness. They devote their lives to upholding that.
A Paladin of a CG deity might be difficult to pull off and I'd question the logistics of it, but I wouldn't immediately say no.
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A Paladin of a CG deity might be difficult to pull off and I'd question the logistics of it, but I wouldn't immediately say no.Why would it be more difficult than an antipaladin of a CE deity?
Antipaladin codes are probably more for "You do what I want in exchange for power; you don't, and I take this away from you." rather than true dedication. I didn't say it was any more or less difficult than that, though. I just meant it would be more difficult than usual Paladin-having deity alignments and would be more difficult to justify, too.
While there are many Pathfinder rules that do not make a lot of sense to me, none is worse imho than the rule that all paladins have to be LG. With that said, it is impossible to be a paladin of Cayden Cailean since his alignment chart is CG, NG, CN.
The actually concept of paladin is holy warrior for a deity, not some overzealous policeman upholding the law. For that you have hellknights.
Is there a workaround for this or does PF throw its hands in the air and just say not all good aligned deities have paladins?
A buddy of mine was GMing Curse of the Crimson Throne eons ago (to rez this dead equine of a thread ;->) and my hubby wanted to play a Paladin of Pharasma so his character could really womp on the undead (and this was years before the Warpriest, which really limits the Cleric in the wrong direction, imho; limiting higher level spells vs. not starting them until later, like a Paladin).
He was told that wouldn't fly due to Pharasma's True Neutral alignment, but together they worked out the literal Holy Warrior for the top 6 alignments (and Unholy Warrior for the bottom 3 alignments). So, in our group's house rules, all Paladins are Holy Warriors, but not all Holy Warriors are Paladins, that kind of thing.
To be a Holy Warrior of ________, you had to pick an alignment within one step of your Patron (and I can't recall if Philosophies were allowed) and STICK TO THAT, the way a Pally would stick to LG (but read the wonderful sidebar on Chaotic Neutral in Champions of Balance). The powers were very, very similar, but could be tweaked; a CN Holy Warrior of Calistria, for instance, would have Smite Law instead of Smite Evil, etc. I think they also had to focus on a specific thing in their Patron's bailiwick, and his character really wanted to clean up on undead, which Pharasma's bent out of shape about (understandably).
My hubby's Neutral Good character, joining us after we'd started (his work schedule was odd back then, and wasn't sure if he could join us each time), soon proved very valuable; it's good to be able to run into a haunted house on the heels of someone in full plate with a mace, "plowing the field" for the Cleric to get centered and then WHOOMPF! go off with the Channel Positive... ;)
Not to mention:
The main issue we had with Adiera was that she wasn't "NG enough" (almost TOO Lawful), and the rest of the female toons in the group figured she needed a little loosening up at a "spa day"...the trickiest thing there was convincing her to leave her weapons and armor at the Cloak Check counter. X-D
While there are many Pathfinder rules that do not make a lot of sense to me, none is worse imho than the rule that all paladins have to be LG. With that said, it is impossible to be a paladin of Cayden Cailean since his alignment chart is CG, NG, CN.
The actually concept of paladin is holy warrior for a deity, not some overzealous policeman upholding the law. For that you have hellknights.
Is there a workaround for this or does PF throw its hands in the air and just say not all good aligned deities have paladins?
Given the way that Paizo changed Paladins in 2nd Edition, they agree with this idea.
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Given the way that Paizo changed Paladins in 2nd Edition, they agree with this idea.While there are many Pathfinder rules that do not make a lot of sense to me, none is worse imho than the rule that all paladins have to be LG. With that said, it is impossible to be a paladin of Cayden Cailean since his alignment chart is CG, NG, CN.
The actually concept of paladin is holy warrior for a deity, not some overzealous policeman upholding the law. For that you have hellknights.
Is there a workaround for this or does PF throw its hands in the air and just say not all good aligned deities have paladins?
Gray Paladin exists in PF1
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The Gray Paladin only expands your PC alignment options by a little bit:Gray Paladin exists in PF1Given the way that Paizo changed Paladins in 2nd Edition, they agree with this idea.While there are many Pathfinder rules that do not make a lot of sense to me, none is worse imho than the rule that all paladins have to be LG. With that said, it is impossible to be a paladin of Cayden Cailean since his alignment chart is CG, NG, CN.
The actually concept of paladin is holy warrior for a deity, not some overzealous policeman upholding the law. For that you have hellknights.
Is there a workaround for this or does PF throw its hands in the air and just say not all good aligned deities have paladins?
Ultimate Intrigue pg. 69 Gray paladins have discovered that in a world of intrigue, a strict code of honor hinders their options. Their divergence from the paladin’s normal code still drains them, but somehow, they have found a way to avoid losing all of their powers.Source
Alignment: A gray paladin can be lawful good, lawful neutral, or neutral good, though she must still follow a lawful good, neutral good, or lawful neutral deity.
This alters the paladin’s alignment restrictions.
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Any deity that has Gray Paladin worshipers always could have had 'normal' paladin worshipers as well...
Just in case anyone missed it, This thread has been REVIVED TWICE within the last couple of months after a 9 year hiatus. It's totally fine if people want to continue the thread, just making sure people aren't replying to someone who's no longer even here and expecting a reply.
As far as Paladins of Cayden Cailean [[c](or similar)[/ooc], while the Paladins themselves have to be LG alignment, there is no stipulation in the Paladin class that a Paladin must be within 1 step of their chosen deity. The requirement that a Divine class must be within 1 step of their deity is present in the CLERIC, INQUISITOR and WARPRIEST classes but does not appear anywhere in the Paladin class.
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
I believe Paizo made it a requirement for Organised play that any Divine caster had to be within 1 step of their deity, but to my knowledge they never actually made that change to the rules of the game itself.
There are also now Paladin archetypes that allow for non LG Paladins , and archetypes from other classes that give paladin-like abilities , but beyond that remember that this is a game. If you have an idea for a character that doesn't quite fit within the rules then talk to you GM about how to make it. When I introduced some of my friends to DnD3.5 back in the day I played a Chaotic-Good Paladin. The GM and I intentionally made this technically-illegal character to show the other players that one of the big advantages of a Tabletop RPG over something like a computer game is that we can bend the rules to make the game fit our purposes. That character is still one of the most memorable PCs I've played.
Obviously this is the Rules forum so telling people "Just ignore the rules if it doesn't suit you" isn't really the answer people are looking for, but I do think allowing for some creative interpretations is one of the biggest draw-cards of TTRPGs. If we're talking RAW then as I said the Paladin doesn't have to worship a Deity within 1 step.
As far as da rulez and the al8gnment of a paladin's deity their are some stipulations about the alignment and actions of a Paladin's allies and associates, I'd say those standards (at minimum) would apply to a paladin, and if the paladin doesn't keep up with the commandments of that deity's faith that would count as oathbreaking, no?