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Riddle me this Risner,
I have two identical shields. I cast Lead Blades on both and now the mass and density of both shields is higher and they go up in damage. I put spikes on one shield. Both still use a "shield bash" to do damage. By what game logic are you going to tell me the shield with spikes on it does the same as the one without?
The answer is that there isn't any. When an interpretation of a FAQs results in defending something that is completely nonsensical then as a GM, that should be a red flag that something is amiss in our interpretation. Rules interpretations should not engender rules stupidity.
The law of diminishing returns.
Each size step up involves doubling the mass of the item. So to go up two steps, you have to quadruple the (effective) mass of the item. Lead blades and shield spikes each double the original mass of the item, so applying both only increases the effective mass by 3, not by the 4 needed to raise the damage by another step.
Basically, it makes sense if you assume that damage scales in proportion to an exponential increase in the mass / speed of the weapon. This also applies to armor, each +1 AC correspond (roughly) to an order of magnitude of stopping power.
(For an example of a game system that uses damage proportional to a linear progression, check out Gurps, which had to add rules for blow through damage to explain why guns don't just always kill anyone they hit. 7d6 damage vs (at most) 16 hp is brutal.)
Lead blades and shield spikes each double the original mass of the item, so applying both only increases the effective mass by 3, not by the 4 needed to raise the damage by another step.
A spike on a shield doubles it's mass you say? Just what kind of spiked shields have you been playing with? This is Pathfinder, not a JRPG; massively oversized and completely ridiculous weapons are not the norm here.
His point is the same. Adding spikes adds a level of damage and power to the shield. Adding Lead Blades on top of it doesn't add enough additional killing power to trigger the additional damage die.
You could make the exact same example of why going from a duskwood shield to an adamantine shield doesn't double the damage, even though it would easily double the weight. So, a bad example and a non-issue.
They've ruled they don't stack for PFS and official purposes. If you don't like it, let them stack for your personal game, it isn't going to make more then +2.5 dmg difference.
==Aelryinth
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His point is the same. Adding spikes adds a level of damage and power to the shield. Adding Lead Blades on top of it doesn't add enough additional killing power to trigger the additional damage die.
You could make the exact same example of why going from a duskwood shield to an adamantine shield doesn't double the damage, even though it would easily double the weight. So, a bad example and a non-issue.
They've ruled they don't stack for PFS and official purposes. If you don't like it, let them stack for your personal game, it isn't going to make more then +2.5 dmg difference.
==Aelryinth
Exactly why I don't play PFS, I'd ignore the rules and run it my own way. I don't enjoy being a DVD player.
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A spike on a shield doubles it's mass you say? Just what kind of spiked shields have you been playing with? This is Pathfinder, not a JRPG; massively oversized and completely ridiculous weapons are not the norm here.Lead blades and shield spikes each double the original mass of the item, so applying both only increases the effective mass by 3, not by the 4 needed to raise the damage by another step.
Reading comprehension is your friend.
Adding shield spikes to your shield increases it's damage by an amount equal to what doubling it's original mass would have done.
Adding bashing adds an amount of damage equal to what doubling it's original mass would have done.
Thus adding both adds an amount of damage equal to what tripling it's original mass would have done, or 1.5 steps. However, since Pathfinder (Like D&D before it) is a highly granular and abstract system, you can't go up half steps.
Also, have you *read* the iconics???? Specifically Amiri? Who wields a hill giant bastard sword for more damage?
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Also, the FAQ was to the core rules, I believe. There is nothing PFS specific about it. You are free to house rule that weapons round up instead of down on half steps, but that doesn't change the fact that that is not the rule. (I don't get the DVD player comment, unless it refers to railroading, and actually PFS is less railroad than many home games I have played in.)
A spike on a shield doubles it's mass you say? Just what kind of spiked shields have you been playing with? This is Pathfinder, not a JRPG; massively oversized and completely ridiculous weapons are not the norm here.Lead blades and shield spikes each double the original mass of the item, so applying both only increases the effective mass by 3, not by the 4 needed to raise the damage by another step.
Reading comprehension is your friend.
Adding shield spikes to your shield increases it's damage by an amount equal to what doubling it's original mass would have done.
Adding bashing adds an amount of damage equal to what doubling it's original mass would have done.
Thus adding both adds an amount of damage equal to what tripling it's original mass would have done, or 1.5 steps. However, since Pathfinder (Like D&D before it) is a highly granular and abstract system, you can't go up half steps.
Also, have you *read* the iconics???? Specifically Amiri? Who wields a hill giant bastard sword for more damage?
You're right, reading comprehension is my friend, good thing I'm pretty damned good at comprehending what I read.
How about you look at the picture I linked? Or, better yet, why don't you look at actual spiked shields, and then try and tell me that the 2 or 3 pound spike added onto a 10 pound shield somehow doubles the mass of the shield.
Shields, on average, weighed between 6 and 20 pounds. Adding a 2 or 3 pound spike onto a shield is in no way, "doubling the mass" of the shield. Lead blades, however, specifically does double the mass of the weapon just before it hits.
As for Amiri, seriously, she's the only bloody character in the game who is written to use an oversized weapon, and even then, it's not that much different from a greatsword. To top it all off, she's specifically written as only being capable of wielding the weapon when she enters into a Rage. Regardless of the bit about Amiri, you failed to comrephend the point of my bit about JRPGs as I was mocking your assertation that a shield spiked "doubled the mass" of the item. The only way this would be true, were if you were picturing shields with massive spikes on them, or covered in spikes like you would see in some post-apocalyptic survival movie.
Tidbit: The DVD comment is a little harsh, I should have said a video game system. The reason being is that someone who runs a PFS game is not being a GM, they are a machine. A PFS scenario is a pre-written scenario that has pre-written interactions and tactics for the NPCs in them. There are a very limited number of ways it can play out, all of which are scripted by the scenario. GMs can't improvise in PFS, you don't get to change the tactics of the enemies, or change their feats or spell load outs. It's all pre-planned for you.
It's functionally no different than sitting down in front of an Xbox, popping in a short RPG and playing it through to the end. All the rules and interactions are pre-coded for the player; all you are doing, is running the game engine for the players. Truthfully, you don't really even matter that much, because, as a PFS GM, you have no real power to change things.
A spike on a shield doubles it's mass you say? Just what kind of spiked shields have you been playing with? This is Pathfinder, not a JRPG; massively oversized and completely ridiculous weapons are not the norm here.Lead blades and shield spikes each double the original mass of the item, so applying both only increases the effective mass by 3, not by the 4 needed to raise the damage by another step.
Reading comprehension is your friend.
Adding shield spikes to your shield increases it's damage by an amount equal to what doubling it's original mass would have done.
Adding bashing adds an amount of damage equal to what doubling it's original mass would have done.
Thus adding both adds an amount of damage equal to what tripling it's original mass would have done, or 1.5 steps. However, since Pathfinder (Like D&D before it) is a highly granular and abstract system, you can't go up half steps.
Also, have you *read* the iconics???? Specifically Amiri? Who wields a hill giant bastard sword for more damage?
You're right, reading comprehension is my friend, good thing I'm pretty damned good at comprehending what I read.
How about you look at the picture I linked? Or, better yet, why don't you look at actual spiked shields, and then try and tell me that the 2 or 3 pound spike added onto a 10 pound shield somehow doubles the mass of the shield.
Shields, on average, weighed between 6 and 20 pounds. Adding a 2 or 3 pound spike onto a shield is in no way, "doubling the mass" of the shield. Lead blades, however, specifically does double the mass of the weapon just before it hits.
As for Amiri, seriously, she's the only bloody character in the game who is written to use an oversized weapon, and even then, it's not that much different from a greatsword. To top it...
I've been in games where I would have rather been playing a video game than play with the GM... Just saying. I'm sure they thought they were amazing too.
Consistency is key in any organized framework. especially if it matters beyond that particular event. Hell a good GM will make that prepackaged preordained game one of the best you've ever played too.
Ok guys. I really didn't mean to reopen a can of worms here with my inquiry, but I'd appreciate it if people stepped back a moment and took a deep breath before posting.
Obviously there is some disagreement here. Where we DO agree is that like bonuses/effects don't stack unless specifically called out in the rules (such as Dodge).
What would help is if the Devs took a moment to clarify whether a spiked shield is an effective size increase or its own thing with its own base damage. Because right now, the rules indicate both.
IMHO, the text found in the description of shield spikes is poor wording and not RAI. It was put there as a means to save on print space long before this "effective" stacking thing became an issue. Adding spikes to a shield doesn't increase "effective size" any more than adding spikes to a Light Mace. We just call that a Morningstar.
Unfortunately, the FAQ uses the term "as if"...which just happens to be found in the description of shield spikes. So did the Devs intend to scoop up Spiked Shields along with magical effects? Or was it just poor word choice? That is something they will need to clarify.
Ok guys. I really didn't mean to reopen a can of worms here with my inquiry, but I'd appreciate it if people stepped back a moment and took a deep breath before posting.
Obviously there is some disagreement here. Where we DO agree is that like bonuses/effects don't stack unless specifically called out in the rules (such as Dodge).
What would help is if the Devs took a moment to clarify whether a spiked shield is an effective size increase or its own thing with its own base damage. Because right now, the rules indicate both.
IMHO, the text found in the description of shield spikes is poor wording and not RAI. It was put there as a means to save on print space long before this "effective" stacking thing became an issue. Adding spikes to a shield doesn't increase "effective size" any more than adding spikes to a Light Mace. We just call that a Morningstar.
Unfortunately, the FAQ uses the term "as if"...which just happens to be found in the description of shield spikes. So did the Devs intend to scoop up Spiked Shields along with magical effects? Or was it just poor word choice? That is something they will need to clarify.
If I remember correctly Bashing and shield spikes didn't work (aka stack) per a post by Paizo employee back when it came up before and before the FAQs were only handled by the FAQ team. It has always seemed to be an effective increase (at least in PFRPG).
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You just can't make people happy.
If the question I had asked was specifically about Spiked Shields and Bashing, people would be upset that the answer wasn't broad enough to include similar examples.
As it stands the Devs gave us a broad answer, and people are upset that they weren't specific.
If they had been broad and specific there'd still be people upset, because they wouldn't agree with it.
Just accept that Spiked Shields and Bashing don't stack and move on. That's the question I asked, and that's the answer that was given.
Then feel free to ignore it in your home games.
This thread may as well be closed, because we're hashing out the same stuff from hundreds of posts ago.
