1 reducing the point build for stats at creation should help
2 keep close tabs on given loot ($$$$)
3 double cost of item creation costs.... I wouldn't eliminate the feats
that's my 3 cents....
should help quite abit with minimal houseruling and no combing the books.....
and of course the elimination of all "magic shops" in the multiverse should help....
If you want to run low magic:
1) "Item creation feats are not available in my game."
2) "Magic items can not be bought in shops, only found in my game."Done.
Right. Don't go Low Magic. Hand out plenty of Phat Lewt ala the old days of OD&D. (and few are more Old School than me).
I'd allow brew potion, and scribe scroll, of course.
This gets rid of the "Me, "You have determined that it is a vicious keen halberd it is also empathically intelligent.
Them, "Meh. I'm not specialized in halberd. I'll just sell if for another plus on my shield."
Me, "sigh..."
BUT! You also have to let the players know this up front. Tell them there' will be LOTS of Magic weapons and stuff, but they can't be sure of getting the exact thing they want. Thus hyper-specialization may be a bad idea. Thus a player won't take a bunch of feats for one weapon. Also you can allow the Warblade rule where a full BAB martial can retrain with a weapon, getting use of all feats. This takes a hour, I think.
Chivalry & Sorcery, all the way!
Yeah baby! Twelve hours+ to "roll" a PC, a "simple" combat took four hours and no one would play the game anyway........
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I'm of the opinion that you cannot make magic item special by making them rare. It's impossible and I'll tell you the reason.
Fantasy saturation.
The modern day is much more saturated with fantasy in the mainstream than the 70's was. Between video games, movies, and Tv series, people of today are already swimming in fantasy realms and magic. You're not going to impress your players by making them have to suffer for their +1 weapon. Rather you'll probably frustrate them.
I don't buy it.
When running older editions (with less items) the players were in awe when the got a low-powered item at the middle levels (4/5ish and up). I think in wide number systems like PF a +1 is nothing, thus it's unimpressive. In games with tighter ranges - such as 5e for example (so not just older editions) that +1 is a huge boon which would otherwise be unattainable. Being a player in a recent low-level 2nd ed module and walking away with no magic items just makes me want it more. Damn, my pally could use a +1 NSA sword, he isn't the best fighter so a +1 in that game is huge.I think it does help if instead of giving your player that +1 Sword (NSA) you give him a +0 Short Sword vs. Goblins and Orcs: +1 to hit vs. those and also confirms any crits, can detect Goblins and Orcs at will, glows 10ft radius when these creatures are nearby. Throw in a backstory and you have a low-powered magic item that the player will remember. And the Dwarven fighter who got this weapon wanted a magic axe - but he kept this around in his possession until he found his magic axe and still used it against goblins and orcs (gave it a modified bane ability when we converted to 3.5, lesserbane - +1 extra to hit and +1d6 vs. goblins and orcs) and also as a item of prestige.
So even when I run PF, whenever I have magic items they are all for the most part unique, if not in ability then in history. Sometimes it would give them a minor CHA bonuses if in the PCs possession when dealing with certain races or cultures - such as the Honor Guard Dwarven Sword I mentioned above. It gets harder in PF when the magic items start to pile up, but it still can be done.
I think if you are going to rattle off descriptions from a book or simple have items be +X or reproduces Y spell, then yeah - magic is going to be boring - it doesn't matter if it's a low or high powered magical setting.
The reason players (like myself) avoid low magic games is because it's a red flag. From experience, it shows a GM that wants to take options away from the player, rather than make magic special. Usuually it's.an adversarial GM that doesn't like the players having nice things, or a GM that cannot handle the options and bonuses the players are bringing to the table. Ive played in and gotten screwed over enough times in low magic campaigns where I will avoid one on principle. Especially if the GM doesn't change any of the expected encounters. Fighting horned devils with only masterwork swords is not fun to players.
And again it's because the DM can't handle it or because he wants to control the players and this type of attack is getting old.
Isn't it possible that the DM is trying to get a level of immersion by running a reduced power game? That more options take away or slow down game play? Can you at least accept the fact that people have other preferred play styles and those play styles that are not wrong?
I think your Horned Devils/Master work weapon dilemma is a good example of a DM who doesn't understand the mechanical impact of removing or reducing items in PF. Again, that's more of a by-product of an uninformed DM than low-magic on its own. If the DM wants to make things miserable for his players, he doesn't need to run a low magic game to do it. A lot of DMs don't realize that gritty or low-powered is a two-way street, and if running PF with that premise in mind and you don't make the mechanical changes (reduce AC, Hp, saves, hps, creature damage and DR) you are setting up for failure.
If you want magic to be cool, make them interesting. Give them backstories or come up with cool abilities. How about a sword that's flaming in the day time but icy at night? It's both thematic and fun while being useful. Or a sword that was used by the town hero, where you discover their background and it finally culminates to finding their sword. A GM did this once and even though the sword was just a +1 flaming sword, ee got attached to it because of the story.
Make magic awe inspiring by making them cool. You need to put effort into it because the players of today won't be impressed if you take the easy way out and make magic super rare. Players of today have a larger volume of fantasy in mainstream media, so you need to do a lot more to inspire awe in magic.
I agree with the entirety of this last part.
I accept that people have alternate styles of play, but I don't believe that options take away from a game. I believe that as long as they are fun and balanced, more options can enhance a game more than disallowing them. That's why a lot of these rules lite games bore me. Sure, they are simple to run for the GM, but the lack of cool options and abilities (or simplifird options that only give a numerical bonus) leads to characters that all feel the same.
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I accept that people have alternate styles of play, but I don't believe that options take away from a game. I believe that as long as they are fun and balanced, more options can enhance a game more than disallowing them. That's why a lot of these rules lite games bore me. Sure, they are simple to run for the GM, but the lack of cool options and abilities (or simplifird options that only give a numerical bonus) leads to characters that all feel the same.
Mechanically older edition characters were very similar - but we always remembered the characters because the way the player played those characters. Quirks, desires, attitude and foibles go much further to a unique character than having a wider menu of feat choices - with everyone in the end taking the same optimal feats. Same goes for rolled up characters - my pally has terrible stats, but I think that's still much better than every 3rd ed pally having the same stat array via PB.
Anyway - this is subjective.
I don't get a red flag when I hear low-magic game unless the DM in question proves to me that he doesn't understand what that means. That would also go with softball DMs where I hear stories of casters run rampant with shenanigans due to ref's poor understanding of the mechanics, and so on.
Low magic (relative to 3rd ed) was the default for most older edition low to mid level games for a few decades of the game, even some high level games. And it worked fine.
Again - YMMV
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In Pathfinder though, there aren't a lot of ways to gain power outside magic items and leveling. That's why magic is so closely tied with power in this system.
My solution to running low magic has been to be very generous with ability scores. Starting with something like 40 point buy and getting 4/1 points/level as opposed to 1/4 points/level makes characters plenty strong enough without having to drown them in magic items.
If you want "low magic" which can mean just about whatever you want, try another system. Its been my experience that the culture of PF is one centered on building and customizing PCs. As such there will always be that one character that, if you're solely relying on item drops, won't get what he wants or can use. As such that person will be constantly on the hunt for their items and if they don't come up often will become frustrated.
I can only speak from the experience I've had in my games and you've all probably created better systems than I have, but I've tried a lot of ways to make players feel the awe and wonder of magic items
- unique descriptions using all 5 senses when viewed with Detect Magic, like a druid-blessed bow radiating a verdant aura that smells of spring dew on wildflowers
- specialized naming conventions ripped off from Diablo like armor called Celestial Rose Plate of the Elements meaning that it is divinely flavored, +1 (rose being the weakest in the color scheme) and it gives Endure Elements at will when worn
- elaborate materials and flourishes used in overly fluffy descriptions
At the end of the day my players were generally confused and frustrated until I explained "It's a +1 sword" at which point they'd shrug and decide whether to keep or sell it.
And finally magic for sale does not need to mean there's a shop in town called Magic For Sale and it's essentially a Wal-Mart for magic items, even in a Large City sized settlement. It merely means that items are available to buy, sell or barter. You still have to find them.
If you want magic to be special, make it that way. Sure, the going rate for a +1 longsword is 2000 and that's how much Don Cornelius will charge you because he's a fair and honest Don, but you must first gain an audience with him this day of all days, the day of his daughter's wedding...
And when it finally gets too tedious to listen to the polearm master gripe again about there being no monsters who wield magic halberds and all the side quests...
You seriously need to save me a seat at your table Mark. I love the overly fluffy descriptions.
-MD
Low magic (relative to 3rd ed) was the default for most older edition low to mid level games for a few decades of the game, even some high level games. And it worked fine.
We always had scads of pelf. Not always useful, sure- how many +1 longswords can you use? But there was lots of it. This is from 1974 thru 3.0.
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Low magic (relative to 3rd ed) was the default for most older edition low to mid level games for a few decades of the game, even some high level games. And it worked fine.We always had scads of pelf. Not always useful, sure- how many +1 longswords can you use? But there was lots of it. This is from 1974 thru 3.0.
And going by most pre-gens (the only measure of real WBL for older editions/pre-internet world) is that most PCs had very limited gear.
Not always, and some mods gave out a ton of stuff that made those pre-gens level of loot seem inconsistent, but as a general rule and going by TSR samples the offerings wear pretty meager.
Looking at I1 - Dwellers of the Forbidden City ...
Olaf Peacock -11th lvl Bard (figure that one out) has a +1 Bastard Sword (NSA), +1 Chain Mail and a potion of extra-healing.
While in that same module
Bruti (a 6th level fighter) has Chain +1, Shield +2, Throwing Axe +2 and a potion of Levitation. Does it make much sense?
No, but they can't even compare with a 9th level Lem in PF who has ...
... a Wand of Cure Serious Wounds (25 charges), +3 Studded Leather Armor, +3 Buckler, +2 Short Sword, Belt of Incredible Dexterity (+2), Cloak of Resistance +2, Headband of Alluring Charisma (+2), Ring of Protection +1
But yeah - what are going to do with +1 Long sword (NSA) #26? Give it to a henchman I suppose.
What do magic items do? They either give bonuses or powers to keep your PCs competitive with the monsters they face. You can either nerf the monsters or hand out powers and bonuses as part of advancement.
I just think its a shame to get rid of crafting, at least for consumables. Classic fantasy and myth is rife with scrolls and potions and wands. In the current game this is how spellcasters manage to have the right spell for the right time. Taking that away or limiting it in some way really hamstrings casters. Think about it; a wizard at level 6 has only 2 3rd level spells, 3 if they're really smart. "Ok Wizzo the Magnificent, you better have ALL our bases covered to handle flying, invisible opponents, damage dealing AND battlefield control with those 2 spells. Oh, you've got us covered for one fight? Awesome. What about the other 3-5 we might get into, not to mention surprise attacks and random encounters?"