Do these two stack? Thus making a heavy shield do 2d6 damage.
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I have always been under the impression myself, that Shield Spikes completely alter the base damage.
So, when trying to figure out how enchantments, and spells, effect the weapon, you work from the base damage, which has been changed, in the case of a Spiked Shield.
Much like how the Monk class alters the base damage of his unarmed strike.
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They both modify the base damage, though.
These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger
A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger
A Heavy Shield deals 1d4 damage during a Shield Bash.
Shield Spikes modify the base shield damage by +1 (1d4 to 1d6)
Bashing modifies the base shield damage by +2 (1d4 to 1d8)
A Bashing Spiked Shield would still only go from 1d4 to 1d8, not 1d6 to 2d6.
You could enchant the Spikes themselves with Impact, raising the damage from 1d6 to 1d8, but it's cheaper to just go with Bashing from the start, as it ends up being the same effect.
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Well, both are listed on different parts of the Weapons table.
Also, under the description of Shield Spikes, it notes "These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon".
So, it appears, to become a different weapon, once the Shield Spikes are added.
If so, then that means that you have a different weapon, with a different base damage. Not the same weapon, with a modified base damage.
This would also mean you would need a different Weapon Focus feat for each.
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You either hit with your spikes, or bash with the body of your shield. You really can't do both at once and so it's generally not worth it to pursue both aveneues. Pick one and work it.
You know that once you have spikes on your shield, you don't have the option not to attack with them.
There is no option to attack with the spiked or non-spiked portion of a spiked shield.
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You either hit with your spikes, or bash with the body of your shield. You really can't do both at once and so it's generally not worth it to pursue both aveneues. Pick one and work it.
You know that once you have spikes on your shield, you don't have the option not to attack with them.
There is no option to attack with the spiked or non-spiked portion of a spiked shield.
Which means any investment you made with bashing, is essentially a waste.
On the other hand, your spikes can radiate outward from the edge instead of projecting from the front, thus giving you two options, do an edged attack with your spikes, or bash with the side.
No.
If anything, you are describing using a spiked shield in an improvised fashion.
Like the difference between a Gauntlet, and a Spiked Gauntlet.
You don't get to attack with a Spiked Gauntlet, as a Gauntlet, to deal bludgeoning damage.
Same goes for a spiked shield.
I think the last time I looked up topics regarding the damage of a Bashing spiked heavy steel shield, it was mostly solved by looking at the bestiary. Doing so, I found Scarred Wanderer. It seems 2D6 is the right damage after looking at this level 20 dwarf barbarian with a +5 bashing spiked heavy steel shield.
The source is Pathfinder Roleplaying Game NPC Codex © 2012, Paizo Publishing, btw. And while I'm here I gotta agree with BBT that it'd only be capable of doing piercing damage, barring improvised use.
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HERE is the Scarred Wanderer, for anyone that's interested.
I was recently told by a Designer that an entire section in the NPC Codex was printed in error, so the existence of that one statblock would do little to persuade me, but it might others.
If you can find other statblocks, perhaps printed in the Bestiaries, then the likelihood of Bashing and Shield Spikes stacking would increase.
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Its damage?
EDIT: found it HERE, no damage listed.
Super cool description, though. The shield is made from driftwood and the spikes made of coral.
^This^
Multiple Magical effects don't stack, but that says nothing about non-magical effects. Shield spikes are a non-magical increase to the size of the damage die.
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I don't think they were arguing about whether the magics of the enchantment stacked, but rather if the damage itself stacked.
Deal damage as if you were one size bigger than you are now.
Deal damage as if you were two sizes bigger than you are now.
Regardless of source, the terminology uses the "set" concept (not the additive) and a reference to a size that never changes. It can be written as:
Set damage to (current size + 1);
Set damage to (current size + 2);
Which would only net you a +2 increase to size in damage. Now, the proper wording for shield spikes would be: "Increase the damage of the shield by one die, and change the damage type from bludgeoning to piercing".
However, I would be more than happy to see this change, sword and board is an iconic fighting style that could use some more love (although, it is pretty good already...).
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As an addendum, I would like to say that I would let them stack. I personally think that once you add the shield spikes that the shield "becomes" a new weapon.
These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
If the spikes didn't turn the shield into a new weapon, then the proper wording here should have been "These spikes change the damage type of a shield bash to piercing, and increases the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you."
But instead, they say "These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon", which says to me that we are talking about a brand new weapon.
Shields are already martial weapons. It is a brand new weapon. It deals damage as if it were designed for a creature one size category larger than you hence the entry on the Weapons table that says a Heavy Spiked Shield does 1d6 damage. From this we conclude that a Medium Heavy Spiked Shield deals 1d6 Damage. We add the bashing enchant which increases the damage as if the shield were designed for a creature two size categories larger than you. Normally a Medium Heavy Spiked Shield deals 1d6 so increased it deals 2d6. I would even rule that if you were to increase your size via Enlarge Person it would increase to 3d6, but I can see why some people wouldn't.
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I believe in consistency of the rules. It makes games easier to understand. Piling on numbers of exceptions only makes the game confusing, and alienates new players who are trying to learn the rules from old players that have seen all the changes happen.
Whether the combination is Impact & Lead Blades, or Improved Natural Attack & Strong Jaw, or Bashing & Shield Spikes (all of which use the exact same wording), the answer should be the same.
I see no reason why this case should be different from the others.
I believe in consistency of the rules. It makes games easier to understand. Piling on numbers of exceptions only makes the game confusing, and alienates new players who are trying to learn the rules from old players that have seen all the changes happen.
Whether the combination is Impact & Lead Blades, or Improved Natural Attack & Strong Jaw, or Bashing & Shield Spikes (all of which use the exact same wording), the answer should be the same.
I see no reason why this case should be different from the others.
I see no exception being made. Shield spikes don't actually increase the size of the shield, just makes it deal damage as if it was larger. Are you saying that an enlarged druid with Shillelagh cast on her club would not do 3d6 damage?
Would you say that Enlarge and Lead Blades will stack?
I would say yes
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I would say yes
Would you say that Enlarge and Lead Blades will stack?
It's a non sequitur.
All of those 6 effects are worded the same. "As if X size categories larger than they actually are".
Enlarge Person increases the size that it actually is.
Leave Enlarge Person out of this. You're only confusing the issue.
I would say yes
Would you say that Enlarge and Lead Blades will stack?
It's a non sequitur.
All of those 6 effects are worded the same. "As if X size categories larger than they actually are".
Enlarge Person increases the size that it actually is.
Leave Enlarge Person out of this. You're only confusing the issue.
Enlarge Person has to be in this as that is where the statement "Multiple magical effects that increase size don't stack" comes from. Is there somewhere else where this is mentioned?
An enlarged creature wielding a melee weapon is wielding a large melee weapon is he not? A Large weapon with Lead Blades on it deals damage as if it were a huge weapon.
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I made a new FAQ request HERE that addresses the bigger question of non-magical and magical size-increasing effects.
It would be nice to lump this thread and the INA/Strong Jaw questions together into one FAQ.
James Jacobs had this to say in 2010 on stacking shield spikes and Bashing quality, though I have yet to see an FAQ on it.
I don't see an issue with bashing. It can only provide a +1 to attack rolls due to the fact that you don't add the shield's enhancement bonus to attack rolls.
An impact longsword deals 2d6 and an impact bastard sword deals 2d8 so it's not like stronger options don't exist.