[UCam] Kingdom Rules- taxation

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

Hello.
I'm sorry if there is a thread about this already floating about somewhere but I haven't been able to find it if there is.
I've been trying to use the kingdom building rules from Ultimate Campaign and have run into a slight snag: I can't seem to find any rules for taxation, specifically the taxes a vassal (the PC) owes to a liege lord. As far as I can tell, taxes are almost negligible in these rules, with wealth magically accumulating without actually taking much at all from the people who live in the domain - you can have a thriving domain without taxing anything.
I could have understood that income assumed taxation if nothing else was mentioned but when the rules say you don't have to tax anything, and you are almost as well off mechanically not doing so, I'm puzzled.

Are the rules actually lacking, or is there something I've missed?

(For those interested, I'm running Mystara with the PC having been granted a domain by Ericall of Norwold. Standard taxation in the old Companion rules, and which all of the Mystara products support in part or in full when the subject of taxation comes up, is 20% of income. Granted, this is net income because general upkeep and similar expenses were assumed to have been subtracted but I've had a long and frustrating argument with the player about taxation in general with the UCam rules and I'm trying to make him see that if the rules are lacking, I'm going to implement changes to keep the feel (and certain plot critical elements) of BECMI. I started off with a 20% tax on income in the form of BP, but have considered increased Consumption)

[Dave Justus]

the Kingdom Building rules are an abstraction. In many ways, they are for the players to control how a kingdom develops more then they are for how the characters run a kingdom. For example, the King doesn't decide that a shop should be built from his perspective the economic conditions and opportunities simply set up a situation where a shopkeeper builds the shop on his own. However, the players make the decision that the shop, rather than a tavern (for example), is what is built.

Similarly a taxation level of 0 doesn't mean that no one in the kingdom pays any taxes, it simply means that taxation isn't high enough to fuel expansion and build infrastructure. Presumably the taxes are just enough to keep the basic functions of government running.

Feudalism, in theory at least, was based on corresponding value of worth. The vassal would pay taxes and supply forces at need in exchange for protection etc. In a relatively equitable arrangement this would probably cancel out (the vassal kingdom pays BP in taxes, but its defense and patrol expenses are less the same amount so in terms of the rules it is a wash). If you want to represent a tyrannical overlord, than extracting extra BP might be appropriate. 20% would be a lot, and would really slow down kingdom growth, so be aware of that. Also, any taxation above the relatively equitable level would probably be seen as unjust and tyrannical and cause for rebellion.

I'm not familiar with Mystara and don't know the feel that you are going for, but I hope this helps.

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

Dave Justus wrote:

Similarly a taxation level of 0 doesn't mean that no one in the kingdom pays any taxes, it simply means that taxation isn't high enough to fuel expansion and build infrastructure. Presumably the taxes are just enough to keep the basic functions of government running.

I guess you're right. I was put off by the highly misleading use of the word 'none' under Taxation Edicts (which in itself seems ridiculous - overwhelming taxation results in 1 BP more regardless of how large the economy is...huh?). Still, this just makes my point more valid, you can collect taxes from your subordinates but your superior has no way of getting anything from you.

Quote:

Feudalism, in theory at least, was based on corresponding value of worth. The vassal would pay taxes and supply forces at need in exchange for protection etc. In a relatively equitable arrangement this would probably cancel out (the vassal kingdom pays BP in taxes, but its defense and patrol expenses are less the same amount so in terms of the rules it is a wash). If you want to represent a tyrannical overlord, than extracting extra BP might be appropriate. 20% would be a lot, and would really slow down kingdom growth, so be aware of that. Also, any taxation above the relatively equitable level would probably be seen as unjust and tyrannical and cause for rebellion.

The thing is I can't see how the rules make any difference between being a vassal and being independant. I get the rules are an abstraction but the fact of the matter is that you are giving away resources to someone else and not necessarily getting anything in return, at least not directly. People pay taxes even if they don't immediately get any benefits from it, and I can't see the rules taking this into account. As for 20% of net income, how is this a lot? It slows down growth, sure, but I don't think unrestricted growth of vassals is the goal of most kings. why would 20% be unreasonable or tyrannical?

Basically, unless I'm reading the rules wrong there is no mechanical difference between being an independant ruler or a vassal and no good explanation why this should be.

[T.A.U.]

In Ultimate Rulership there are additional rules for vassals, which I'm using in one of mine homebrew campaign.
Basically the PCs Kingdom must give the 10% of all their incomes to their Liege lord until they repay all the debt (the starting 50 BP)

[fictionfan]

I think of Bp as the influence that the rulers are able to channel into projects. When Bp is used to buy a library it is not like the PC's are paying for it. They are giving a land grant to someone and helping to organize the building getting rid of red tape. That's why the PC don't own any of the building in there kingdom they only reign over them.

That is also why withdrawing Bp causes unrest. You arn't just taking gold out of the treasury you are somehow misusing your influence for you own gain like going to a magic shop and taking some item by brow beating the owner with your status. I bit like if the president went to a car dealership and demanded that they give him a car just because he's the president.

[Chemlak]

T.A.U. wrote:

In Ultimate Rulership there are additional rules for vassals, which I'm using in one of mine homebrew campaign.

Basically the PCs Kingdom must give the 10% of all their incomes to their Liege lord until they repay all the debt (the starting 50 BP)

Minor correction:

Ultimate Rulership wrote:

Regardless of their diplomatic relationship with their liege, the PCs’ new domain must pay their liege a tithe equal to 10% of all income in both Building Points and gold pieces. Until the amount they have paid back in their tithe equals or exceeds the original grant of BP from their liege, the PCs’ domain gains no benefits to its Economy from a Treaty or Alliance with their liege.

If PCs choose to separate their domain from their liege at a later point in time, follow the rules for Declaring Independence described in Ultimate Campaign.

The tithe lasts forever, short of declaring independence. I think those rules would suit the OP pretty much perfectly.

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

I appreciate the replies. Looks like I'll have to get Ultimate Rulership.

[Chemlak]

Whilst I wholeheartedly recommend URule as an add-on for the kingdom rules, the passage I quoted is really all you'd need to handle a feudal tithing system where a sponsor (the liege) grants the rights to rule a sub-kingdom within their own kingdom.

On the other hand, Ultimate Rulership really is a fantastic product, and the additional/alternate rules improve kingdom building all round.

[joke]Now to wait for my marketing check from Legendary Games...[/joke]