Dragon Disciple Suggestions?

[Daxiongmao87]

Hello,
I'm pretty new to Pathfinder, but I'm coming from the world of 3.5e. One of my long-time favorite ideas presented by the WOTC was the Dragon Disciple. The idea of a gradual transformation into a completely different creature was fascinating to me. In spirit, I think this class was great, but I know there were a plethora of reasons as to why the Dragon Disciple lacked a lot of potential.

"An arcane spellcaster who has embraced his latent draconic heritage and, over the course of training and devotion, undergoes a partial transformation into a dragon."

After reading up on the Dragon Disciple PrC in the Pathfinder book, and reading up on a few posts from Pathfinder Veterans, it seems that while Pathfinder shifted a lot of the Dragon Disciple's focus toward spellcaster potential, they have totally gimped the idea of half-dragon transformation. It feels like the Dragon Disciple's draconic progression is much less literal, which killed my enthusiasm behind the character.

So I've been thinking of ways to blend the two paths (caster potential and half-dragon epicness) without overpowering the character itself, and this is what I have so far:

Quote:

- Adjust arcane spellcasting class progression to +1 every other level (loss of 2)

- Level 2: Change Dragon Bite to Claws and Bite:
At 2nd level, a dragon disciple gains claw and bite attacks (permanent). Use the values below to determine damage values.

Bite Damage (+Strength Modifier x1.5):
Small: 1d4
Medium: 1d6
Large: 1d8

Claw Damage (+Strength Modifier x1.5):
Small: 1d3
Medium: 1d4
Large: 1d6

A dragon disciple is considered proficient with these attacks. When making a full attack, a dragon disciple uses his full base attack bonus with his bite attack but takes a –5 penalty on claw attacks.

- Level 10, Choice between Dragon Apotheosis or Draconic Apotheosis:
Dragon Apotheosis
At 10th level, a dragon disciple fully realizes his draconic heritage and takes on the half-dragon template. He gains +4 to Strength and +2 to Charisma. His natural armor bonus increases to +4, and he acquires low-light vision, 60-foot darkvision, immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and immunity to the energy type used by his breath weapon (see above).

Draconic Apotheosis
At 10th level, a dragon disciple unlocks the full power inherited by his draconic bloodline. He gains +2 to Strength and +4 to Charisma. His spellcasting class increases by +3.

- Complete removal of dragon form

In regards to trying to bring the dragon transformation back to the Dragon Disciple, What do you think? Any further adjustments? Looking for some honest feedback. Thanks guys

[Corlindale]

I agree with you that the PF DD could use a serious capstone, though in most other ways I think it's superior to the old DD.

As for your specific suggestion, I really like giving claws/bite at will - I know many GMs houserule that already, and I don't really think it's overpowered. It's just a way to enable the character to fight as a dragon should all the time instead of a few rounds per day.

I don't think the spellcasting nerf is needed. 3.5 DD was needlessly crippling in this area, and even with the buffs you suggested I don't see a need to reduce spellcasting further than DD already does. The idea of returning some of the levels at the very end just seems a bit wonky and odd to me, I'm not sure it would be very fun in practice.

The half-dragon template as capstone is interesting, but while the stat boosts are handy I am worried that the rest of it overlaps way too much with the capstone of the draconic bloodline. A "pure" dragon disciple (sorc+dd only) can get access to the Draconic capstone at level 16 with a robe of arcane heritage (which many sorcerors use), so just 1 level after getting these powers from the prc.

That seems needlessly redundant. I think it would be better to offer something that doesn't overlap with the bloodline capstone itself (or something that becomes further buffed when you also get the bloodline capstone). I don't know what it should be, exactly, but I agree that a meaningful capstone is sorely needed (as it is nobody takes the last two levels of DD).

[Daxiongmao87]

Thank you for your feedback. I'm still learning Pathfinder and just had to reread how bloodlines worked with DD! In that case I'd probably make wings a permanent feature, even though the sorceror's virtually the same, just able to dismiss it whenever he'd like.

Quote:

I don't think the spellcasting nerf is needed. 3.5 DD was needlessly crippling in this area, and even with the buffs you suggested I don't see a need to reduce spellcasting further than DD already does. The idea of returning some of the levels at the very end just seems a bit wonky and odd to me, I'm not sure it would be very fun in practice.

As for it feeling wonky, I reduced the progression in the beginning to give the capstone more meat. Reducing your caster levels by 2 in trade for a total of 3 (a total of 8 throughout the 10 PrC levels instead of 7 originally), I felt this would feel a lot better. I was considering at +4, but then I feel like it will reduce the purpose of going full sorceror, mechanically.

Quote:

The half-dragon template as capstone is interesting, but while the stat boosts are handy I am worried that the rest of it overlaps way too much with the capstone of the draconic bloodline. A "pure" dragon disciple (sorc+dd only) can get access to the Draconic capstone at level 16 with a robe of arcane heritage (which many sorcerors use), so just 1 level after getting these powers from the prc.

I agree that there's a lot of redundancy in regards to sorcerer / Dragon Disciple if the sorcerer decided to go with Dragon Apotheosis instead of Draconic apotheosis. I made the assumption that other classes can take on Dragon Disciple, but it looks like it's only Bard and Sorcerer?

In that case I'd redo level 10 capstone as a single choice as Dragon Apotheosis:

Quote:

Dragon Apotheosis
At 10th level, a dragon disciple fully realizes his draconic heritage and takes on the half-dragon template. He gains +4 to Strength and +2 to Charisma, and spellcasting class increases by +3. His natural armor bonus increases to +4, and he acquires low-light vision, 60-foot darkvision. If not already acquired, the dragon disciple also inherits the features of Power of Wyrms. You gain immunity to paralysis, sleep, and damage of your energy type. You also gain blindsense 60 feet.

[Major_Blackhart]

I think Dragon Disciple is one of those that doesn't necessarily need a capstone.
You take dual blooded sorcerer to 10, and take the Orc/Abyssal and Draconic Bloodlines, and you have great possibilities for damage right there.
With the Orc bloodline, the capstone is a SLA that grants Transformation, DR 5, and immunity to fire. Dragon has a bunch of immunities and Blindsense, and Abyssal has immunities, greater resistances, and telepathy out to 60 or 90 feet. All in all, none of those are bad. DD stacks with levels of sorcerer if I recall correctly for determining bloodline powers. So, even if you don't want the capstone, but rather want to go something like Urban Barbarian 5/Sorcerer 5/DD 10, you got a great combination right there and a great possibility for insane damage. Depending on race and such, get a greatsword, large bastard sword, or large dwarven waraxe, and then just take it all the way.
+4 morale bonus to strength, +4 inherent bonus to strength, +4 untyped bonus to strength, and if you take the Orc's 15 ability, the chance to grow in size as per the Giant Form spell, get +6 size bonus to strength. That's a +18 bonus to strength right there! Coupled with Dragon Form, Wings, and the ability to cast while raging, none of that is anything to sniff at.