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So, there seems to be a general concensus that skills, as they currently are, dont do much. Technically speaking, anything regular humans can do (IE us) should be quite doable with 5 skill ranks or less. So, I'm thinking, couldnt we give pseudo-supernatural bonuses to high skill ranks?
They would be purely (EX) abilities, but they would be vaguely spell like. I've heard vague mentions from others implementing similar ideas, but no actual information, so I'm giving it a try. Here are the more "obvious" ones:
Climb: at 10 skill ranks, a character gains a climb speed equal to his land speed.
Swim: Same as climb, but with swimming!
Fly: at 10 skill ranks, a character is considered under the effects of a permanent featherfall spell. They are just that good at moving through the air. (this is still ex)
Others are less obvious:
Knowledges/profession/perform/craft: these multifunction things leave me quite uncertain.
Diplomacy: I use the "OOTS" creator's diplomacy mod, because I want to avoid mind control through skills. I also want to avoid skill uses that can be used on NPCs but not on PCs.
Perception: This one is pretty essential, but not necessarily strong. Maybe at 5-10 ranks you could get blind-fight as a bonus feat?
And many others. I would love to know if anyone has worked on something similar.
Not bad for swim. Though I will admit I might add remove the compression stuff; though the hold breath forever would seem to fit.
A few more (note: I'd rather give something OTHER than bonus feats, but these are easy placeholders until I find something better):
Acrobatics: at 5 ranks, you gain nimble moves as a bonus feat. At 10 ranks, you gain acrobatic steps.
Appraise: At 10 ranks, you can use appraise instead of spellcraft & detect magic to identify the abilities of magic items.
Bluff: ?
Craft: ?
Diplomacy: ?
Disable device: ? (maybe something to do with "disabling" spells... kinda like spell sunder, but takes longer)
Disguise: at 10 ranks, the character can use the "sudden disguise" ninja trick X/day.
Escape artist: ? (maybe smething akin to permanent freedom of movement, but not quite)
Handle animal: ?
Heal: At 7+ ranks, a character can heal a number of hit points/minute equal to her number of skill ranks. At 12 + ranks (something similar to restoration but not sure yet).
Intimidate: ?
Knowledge; ?
Linguistics: At 10+ ranks, the character is considered as capable of understanding any language. At 15+ ranks, they can speak any language as well.
Perception: ? (Maybe free blind-fight)
Perform: ?
Ride: ?
Sense motive: ?
Sleight of hand: ?
Spellcraft: ?
Stealth: ?
Survival?
UMD: ?
So few decent ideas...
'Making skills useful...' I approve this message. I think of skill tricks, but they should be able to get pretty epic.
Intimidate
You are just that scary. When you demoralize an opponent, for every two rounds you could shaken a target, you may trade it for one round of the frightened condition. All frightened rounds must come before any remaining shaken rounds. When your intimidate reaches X, you may demoralize everyone within 5'. When your intimidate reaches Y, you may demoralize everyone within melee reach.
Perception
You notice the chink in the armor. You negate 1 point of armor or natural armor for each X that you exceed your opponents Y.
Your vision akin to an eagle's. Your superior vision allows you to increase the range increment of any ranged weapon you are currently using by 10% per every X that you exceed the DC by Y.
Sense Motive
You read intentions from body language before someone acts. You gain a free readied action against an opponent (or maybe negate surprise) as long as you beat an opposed check by X.
Survival
Ascetics envy your stoicism. When your survival reaches X, your metabolism makes the most out of calories. You only need to eat something organic once a week. Animal and plant poisons count, but you still need to make a save. When your survival reaches Y, your body conserves fluid, eliminating less liquid waste. You only need to drink once a week. It need not be purified, such as salt water or marsh water, but disease may be an issue.
All of these are rough, as is probably obvious as I have X and Y rather than real numbers... I don't know where they should go balance-wise.
You may find this to be a useful point of inspiration. (Keep in mind it was written for 3.5 where at level 1, one could have anywhere from 0 to 4 ranks in any given skill)
I remember that. It also removed bonus skill points from intelligence as part of the balancing act. I did like a few of the effects. You're right. It's a good starting point.
I dont want to remove skills for int. But I am looking for interesting ideas. You have serveral good ones Te'Shen. Though it would be nice to have some numbers...
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Fine. I'll give numbers a shot. Though they will still probably need to be rebalanced... :)
Craft
You can fix just about anything.When you have 3 or more ranks in a craft skill, you may spend a minute cleaning up and maintaining the item, and it gains the benefits of the mending spell. You may only mend things this way for which you have the appropriate craft skill, and you may mend no more per item than 1d4 hit points per ranks you have in the skill per day, not to exceed the items full hit points.
At 6 or more ranks in a craft skill, you may ignore the effects of the broken condition of a weapon you wield for which you have the appropriate craft skill.
When you have 9 or more ranks in a craft skill, once a week you may craft items relating to your craft skill as if you had cast the spell fabricate. The range is touch and the casting time is one hour (during which you are working like crazy).
Intimidate
You are just that scary. When you demoralize an opponent, for every two rounds you could shaken a target, you may trade it for one round of the frightened condition. All frightened rounds must come before any remaining shaken rounds. When you have 6 or more ranks in intimidate, you may demoralize everyone within 5'. When you have 12 or more ranks in intimidate, you may demoralize everyone within melee reach.
Perception
You notice the chink in the armor. You negate 1 point of armor or natural armor for each 5 points that your perception check exceeds your opponent's AC. This effect lasts for one round per four ranks in the perception skill.
Your vision akin to an eagle's. Your superior vision allows you to increase the range increment of any ranged weapon you are currently using by 10% with a DC 15 perception check. For every 5 additional points that you exceed the DC, add an additional 10% to to the range of the weapon. This lasts for the duration of a single combat.
Sense Motive
You read intentions from body language before someone acts. With a DC 10 + opponent's total bluff bonus, you gain a free readied action against an opponent. When you have 10 or more ranks in sense motive, you may make a DC 15 + opponent's total bluff bonus to act as if you are not surprised in a surprise round.
Survival
Ascetics envy your stoicism. When your survival reaches 4 or more ranks, your metabolism makes the most out of calories. You only need to eat something organic once a week. Animal and plant poisons count, but you still need to make a save.
When your survival reaches 8 or more ranks, your body conserves fluid, eliminating less liquid waste. You only need to drink once a week. It need not be purified, such as salt water or marsh water, but disease may be an issue.
When your survival reaches 12 or more ranks, you've learned to make due with less rest. You only need to sleep half as much as normal for your race to be treated as rested and to recover hit points. Sleeping/meditating for a full eight hours functions as if you had rested for a full twenty-four hours. With a successful DC 20 check, you may go twenty four hours without rest without penalty. Each additional day increases the check by 4. This has no effect on regaining spells or the ability to prepare spells.
I like the craft idea.
The sense motive one however seems a bit much. How about this:
-Once you have 10 ranks in sense motive, you can prepare a full-round action as a readied action.
This seems less likely to mess with the action economy.
Have you checked out the Alternate Skill Uses and Skill Tricks from 3.5 for inspiration?
I like the craft idea.
The sense motive one however seems a bit much. How about this:
-Once you have 10 ranks in sense motive, you can prepare a full-round action as a readied action.
This seems less likely to mess with the action economy.
Fair enough. When I get to play, we don't get much past level 8 so I don't see as much action economy abuse. I do read about it wistfully, though. :)
Have you checked out the Alternate Skill Uses and Skill Tricks from 3.5 for inspiration?
Not recently, but yes. I should probably take another look.
Bluff
If you can't dazzle them with dexterity, baffle them with bull$#*!
When you have 3 or more ranks in the bluff skill, you may spend ten minutes chatting with someone and make a DC 10 + hit die/level + Wisdom modifier. If you succeed, it's as if you cast charm person on them with a caster level equal to your ranks in bluff. When you have 9 or more ranks in the bluff skill, it's as if you cast charm monster, only the duration is still an hour per rank.
(Or does that step on diplomacy's toes to much?)
Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/Planes/Religion)
You have studied certain creatures, learning their thought processes in order to manipulate them. When you have 6 ranks or more, pick a single creature type, like dragons or magical beasts for Knowledge (Arcana). You may use your Knowledge skill in place of a single social skill (either bluff, intimidate, or sense motive) against the chosen creature type. They must have an intelligence score of 3 or more for this to function. For each additional 3 ranks, you may chose another creature type or another social skill your knowledge skill can replicate.
Or would a more combat application fit better, like the 3.5 knowledge devotion giving bonus to hit and damage with a skill check? Or both?
I don't really have an idea for Knowledge (Engineering/Geography/History/Nobility).
I've been working on remaking a rogue that can compete in a world of wizards, and one aspect is giving the class "skill disciplines".
This would be something where the rogue can prepare a limited number of abilities from his skill disciplines at a time (spending an hour to set them up, so an hour to change them later if needed), but they are all things that make the skills function in a high level game that has magic and monsters.
Here's an example of one discipline I've written so far:
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CLANDESTINE
Master Skills: Bluff, Stealth
The rogue ignores penalties for moving full speed while hiding and from moving between cover, and may make a double move after using bluff to create a distraction.
Abilities
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Sniper (Ex) (2 ranks in Stealth): The rogue is highly skilled at hiding after taking a shot, and no longer has a penalty to stealth rolls when sniping.
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Hide Scent (Ex) (2 ranks in Stealth): The rogue can prepare their person to prevent scents, allowing stealth checks even against creatures with the scent ability.
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Soft Step (Ex) (5 ranks in Stealth and Bluff): The rogue times and changes their movements to match the natural activity in the environment, allowing stealth checks even against creatures with tremorsense.
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Trackless (Ex) (5 ranks in Stealth): The rogue alters their pattern of movement and stepping and takes care with their environment, such as to no longer leave a visible trail.
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Anonymous (Su) (8 ranks in Bluff): The rogue can shift her personal aura, allowing her to be treated as neutral for purposes of alignment detection spells.
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Camouflage (Ex) (8 ranks in Stealth and Knowledge nature): The rogue prepares loose clothing to match their environment, allowing them to make stealth checks without needing cover or concealment while in a particular terrain. When this ability is selected, choose a specific terrain (as the Ranger's favored terrain list).
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Hide in Plain Sight (Ex or Su) (8 ranks in Stealth and Bluff): The rogue's movements are designed to draw the eye away from their intended destination, allowing her to make stealth checks even while observed. This requires being in some form of cover or concealment, unless the rogue is using the Camouflage ability. If the rogue has the Arcane Dabbler rogue talent, she may instead take on a shadowy aspect, allowing her to hide as long as there is shadows within 10 feet. This application is a supernatural effect.
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Blind Spot Vanish (Ex) (11 ranks in Bluff): The rogue may use a moment of blind spot during combat to escape an attacker. When fighting defensively, if a rogue is attacked and the attack is a miss, the rogue may make a bluff check to create a distraction as an immediate action, and move into an adjacent square. If the attacker fails his sense motive check, he must spend time relocating the rogue and effectively treats the rogue as invisible until the end of his turn.
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Fool Senses (Su) (11 ranks in Stealth): The rogue is able to alter how her presence is sensed by blindsense and blindsight abilities, fooling them into believing she is not there, or simply part of the environment around her. This allows her to make stealth checks against creatures with these senses.
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Undetectable (Sp) (14 ranks in Bluff): The rogue is able to alter her aura, dimming it such that she is no longer discoverable by magical means. The rogue is treated as being under the effects of a constant non-detection spell as if cast by herself (DC 15 + caster level), with a caster level equal to her rogue level. If this effect is dispelled, it can be resumed after 1d4 rounds.
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Disappear (Sp) (17 ranks in Stealth, Arcane Dabbler rogue talent): The rogue can maintain magical invisibility, as the greater invisibility spell. She must spend a swift action per round that she wishes to stay invisible, and may only move at half speed. This effect can be dispelled, however the rogue can simply resume using it again on their turn.
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Gray Man (Su) (20 ranks in Stealth): The rogue has deadened all magical auras about their person. All methods of magically locating or gathering information about the rogue are foiled, as the spell mind blank. The rogue may lower or raise this effect as she wishes as a free action.
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If nothing else, it can hopefully give you some ideas.
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Can't believe no-one has linked this already: Rite Publishing's 101 New Skill Uses could help...
I've heard of the rite publishing stuff, but from what I've heard it's all pretty mundane uses, so I will admit I'm not tempted by it.
I've heard of the rite publishing stuff, but from what I've heard it's all pretty mundane uses, so I will admit I'm not tempted by it.
Ok. No problems. I didn't read the OP clearly enough. You're wanting something a bit more spell-like/not mundane. Carry on! :)
I've heard of the rite publishing stuff, but from what I've heard it's all pretty mundane uses, so I will admit I'm not tempted by it.Ok. No problems. I didn't read the OP clearly enough. You're wanting something a bit more spell-like/not mundane. Carry on! :)
To be fair, the mundane uses would plug in fine at lower DCs or rank requirements. At later levels you'd be doing things with a skill that seem magical but are truly extraordinary, in the vein of legendary (non spellcasting) heroes. It'd be similar to some of the epic uses of skills from 3.5, like hiding a large creature in a medium creature's shadow. :D
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. . . Diplomacy: I use the "OOTS" creator's diplomacy mod, because I want to avoid mind control through skills. I also want to avoid skill uses that can be used on NPCs but not on PCs. . . .
I had read This Old Rule: The Diplomacy Skill before, but it's been a while. Thank you for reminding me of it.
. . . This would be something where the rogue can prepare a limited number of abilities from his skill disciplines at a time (spending an hour to set them up, so an hour to change them later if needed), but they are all things that make the skills function in a high level game that has magic and monsters. . .
Spending an hour to prepare sounds like spells in the current system. Though I do like some of the things you've done here. I specifically get a kick out of...
Soft Step (Ex) (5 ranks in Stealth and Bluff): The rogue times and changes their movements to match the natural activity in the environment, allowing stealth checks even against creatures with tremorsense.
Walk without rhythm and you won't attract the worm.
Blind Spot Vanish (Ex) (11 ranks in Bluff): The rogue may use a moment of blind spot during combat to escape an attacker. When fighting defensively, if a rogue is attacked and the attack is a miss, the rogue may make a bluff check to create a distraction as an immediate action, and move into an adjacent square. If the attacker fails his sense motive check, he must spend time relocating the rogue and effectively treats the rogue as invisible until the end of his turn.
Every martial arts movie I've ever seen. :)
No problem!
As an aside: while I definitly think these power could have spell-like results, I'd rather avoid anything SP or SU; I want all these things to work in an antimagic field.
Kaisoku has some interesting ideas, but they might go a bit far for me. One option I see for stealth is this:
1) When you have 5 ranks in stealth, you can use stealth against scent; at 10 ranks blindsense/tremorsense, at 15 blindsight;
This would effectively remove a number of feats from play. It's very powerful, and "fluffable" as non-magical.
I spent a lot of time doing this for my houserules. Each skill has a "Class Skill" section that details what you can do if you have X ranks in that skill as a class skill.
I also have a number of feats with effects keyed to your number of ranks in a skill.
Given a chance, I'll post some of those, or I can simply email you the docs.
Does that fit into Kirthfinder? I could just check what you've already put up if it's there.
I will admit I'm trying to keep it simple. Which is why most of my suggestions are "passive" rather than "active", which may be a bad idea...
It's not in the 3-year-old version that TOZ posted. Like I said, I'll post some examples; if you like them, I can always email the rest.
Basically, stuff that seems like a logical outgrowth of the skill (e.g., fast tracking) gets rolled into the "Class Skill" section. Stuff that grants additional abilities (e.g., uncanny dodge) generally requires a feat as well, but still requires "X" ranks in a skill.
The goals were to (a) make skills more worthwhile past 5th level, (b) make "class skill" meaningful again, and (c) better integrate skills into the rest of the system.
Well, I'd be interested if you're willing. I will admit I'm not terribly bothered by the way class skills have been rendered less important, but I really want to make them more significant past low-level.
One suggestion I really liked was to use other skills for Perception, like Knowledge(Nature) to see the tiger waiting to pounce.
If you have some ideas that may be too strong on there own, you might tie them to skill focus which could grant the lesser effect before ten ranks and the greater after.
Basically, stuff that seems like a logical outgrowth of the skill (e.g., fast tracking) gets rolled into the "Class Skill" section. Stuff that grants additional abilities (e.g., uncanny dodge) generally requires a feat as well, but still requires "X" ranks in a skill.
The goals were to (a) make skills more worthwhile past 5th level, (b) make "class skill" meaningful again, and (c) better integrate skills into the rest of the system.
I'll second Williamoak. It sounds good, and I'd like to see it.
If you have some ideas that may be too strong on there own, you might tie them to skill focus which could grant the lesser effect before ten ranks and the greater after.
Hmm... This idea is nifty as well. It makes skill focus something more than just inflating a check.
If you can't dazzle them with dexterity, baffle them with bull$#*!
When you have 3 or more ranks in the bluff skill, you may spend ten minutes chatting with someone with whom you share a common language and make a DC 10 + hit die/level + Wisdom modifier. If the creature is currently being threatened by you or your allies the DC increases by 5. If the creature is has been attacked by your allies recently the DC increases by 10. If you succeed, this makes the humanoid creature regard you as a friend and ally for an hour per rank in bluff.
This does not enable you to control the person, but the target perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn't ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the person ends the effect/friendly mood.
When you have 9 or more ranks in the bluff skill, this ability can apply to non humanoid creatures.
...
Think of sales persons who spend a little time to 'make friends' with you before throwing a sales pitch. It may or may not take longer for the buyer's remorse to kick in.
Not sure if anyone has mentioned it yet, but you could get some inspiration from the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook and adapt it to PF use. They had things in there such as a DC 80 Escape Artist check to pass through a wall of force. They didn't have new pseudo-supernatural uses for all skills, but a fair number of them did.
I am working on a system of skill talents. Basically for every x (currently 3) ranks you put into a skill you can choose among a list of 'talents' that enhance the use of that skill. Its still in its infancy right now some examples are:
Acrobatic Attack:
Base skill: Acrobatics
You are skilled at using the environment to your advantage, whether its swinging on a rope, kicking off a wall, or sliding on the smooth tile surface, when you use you agility and nimble moves, you gain and edge in combat.
Benefit: You may activate this skill talent when succeeding at an acrobatics check to move through someones space or threatened square. You count as flanking the enemy whose threatened space you moved through, regardless of other characters that threatened that enemy.
Diplomatic Intercession
Base skill:Diplomacy
Your skill at negotiations and diplomacy allows you to cause even the most heated of enemies to hesistate in combat.
Benefit: You may activate this skill when attempting to change the attitude of an npc towards you. That npc may not attack you in the first round of the next combat the npc is involved in with you. This effect lasts for a maximum of 24 hours, and is negated if engage in hostile action against the npc.
There's always Rite Publishing 101 New Skill Uses - to expand upon what the existing skills can actually accomplish if you think creatively.
There's always Rite Publishing 101 New Skill Uses - to expand upon what the existing skills can actually accomplish if you think creatively.
Yup. Already linked UPTHREAD g-p...
Slight of Hand: With 3 ranks you can simulate a 0 level spell non- magically. With 6 ranks you can simulate a 1st level spell such as silent image. Setup time can add modifiers, which count as ranks. If a stage magician can do it, so can a character. This can mess with a foe that depends on anti magic field, enough to leave them shaken.
Skill specialization abilities would be nice. The skills as they are now are very generic. What if they had a feat like tree they can specialize with.
For example prof farmer.
The skill prof farmer gives the player basic agricultural knowledge. That is be basic skills needed to run a farm that grows the standard staple crops for an area, and basic animal husbandry skills for domesticated farm animals.
When a character attains five ranks in the skill they can pick an area of focus with in that skill. Prof Farmer would focus into a specific type of farming. Like live stock, cereal farming, or fruit farming.
The farmer will get a +2 bonus when ever a skill roll would involve knowledge pertaining to the area of focus.
At 10 ranks the skill can be further specialized. The farmer focuses in live stock, but starts to specialize in cattle.
The farmer would recessive a +4 bonus when a skill roll would involve knowledge of to the area of specialization.
You can also tie in overlapping skills. For example Animal handling is a necessary skill for farming. You can add in a skill feat that allows a character who specialized in farming live stock cattle ranching, to get a bonus on animal handling rolls when ever dealing with cattle or other similar types of animals.
Healing could be another complementary skill. 5 ranks in heal, focus in veterinary, specialize in domesticated animals. The character can get a bonus when making healing checks on horses, oxen, pigs, chickens and so on.
So you could tie in dungeonering to grow glowing Soma mushrooms. They only grow deep underground on any kind of animal flesh. Then allied spellcasters could make incense of meditation and candles of invocation at negligible GP cost.
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You could take a page from Legend
It may be more than you want. The best can jump so good they gain the ability to fly for a round (or several), or become so good at medicine that they can bring back the recently deceased.
Mind, the DCs are balanced within that system but not Pathfinder, as it is much easier to get high skill bonuses in Pathfinder, since the things you can achieve with them are somewhat more limited.
A little update, and a little philosophy.
The philosophy:
Skill ranks represent your experience at a skill. You skill modifier represents your talent. A young (untrained) person can beat a master because of his raw talent, but will always lack abilities gained through experiences & hard work (IE skill ranks).
The update:
Acrobatics: at 5 ranks, you gain nimble moves as a bonus feat. At 10 ranks, you gain acrobatic steps.
Appraise: At 10 ranks, you can use appraise instead of spellcraft & detect magic to identify the abilities of magic items.
Bluff: ?
Craft: At rank 5, you get the effects of the "master alchemist" feat for anny craft skill. At rank 10, it acts as "master alchemist", but with the price in Platinum instead of gold pieces.
Diplomacy: ?
Disable device: ? (maybe something to do with "disabling" spells... kinda like spell sunder, but takes longer)
Disguise: at 10 ranks, the character can use the "sudden disguise" ninja trick X/day.
Escape artist: ? (maybe something akin to permanent freedom of movement, but not quite)
Handle animal: ?
Heal: At 7+ ranks, a character can heal a number of hit points/minute equal to her number of skill ranks. At 12 + ranks (something similar to restoration but not sure yet).
Intimidate: ?
Knowledge; ?
Linguistics: At 10+ ranks, the character is considered as capable of understanding any language. At 15+ ranks, they can speak any language as well.
Perception: ? (Maybe free blind-fight)
Perform: ?
Ride: ?
Sense motive: ?
Sleight of hand: ?
Spellcraft: ?
Stealth: When you have 5 ranks in stealth, you can use stealth against scent; at 10 ranks blindsense/tremorsense, at 15 blindsight;
Survival?
UMD: ?
So few decent ideas...
Bluff: 5 ranks you believe your own bluff. Mind reading won't expose it. Bards call this, the method.
Re-dotting so I don't forget! Hopefully I won't be staying too late at work tonight, and can post some stuff.
Hehehe. Take you time Kirth.
I'll start experimenting with these with my own players; they've recently reached level 5, so some of these might become relevant.
You are doing gods work people! GODS WORK! This is just great!
Bluff: 5+ can use bluff instead of intimidate to demoralize, maybe add bonuses to faint feat tree, roll twice vs truth spells. Play dead?
Disable device: 5+ able to substitute simple craft rolls? 10+ deal extra damage to constructs, objects? Static bonus to sunder CMB?
Escape artist: 10+ allows you to roll twice on any reflex save that would limit your movement or change your position (as in against entangle spell, or create pit)
Knowledge: for every 5 add 1 monster sub-type associated with that Knowledge to get a competence +1 attack and damage rolls.
For Survival: 10+ get Track as a bonus feat?
1) Step one – basic. Upon taking 1 rank the player learns enough of the language to convey basic needs, simple requests and understand slowed speech, basic grammar. Generally, the PC can speak only speak 3-4 word sentences, without blabbering nonsense. The player needs to roll Linguistics DC 15 to get information out of a casual conversation or convey something more complex than “I am hungry”.
2) Step two – intermediate. The player can take 10 on most language checks to speak or read, but complex, fast and special-themed conversations, or conversation during combat still would require a roll to speak or understand the language.
3) Step three – advanced. The Player adds the language into his languages known.
The player can begin learning a new language before finishing learning the last one, but they still need to spend full 3 ranks on a language to learn it. Exception: the linguistics rank spent on level 1, before the adventure starts, provides a full language known.
An animal cohort can be powerful, trained beast that follows commands, fights or works for its master, or a small animal tailor trained to do a specific trick or task better than most of its kin. Training any animal to be a loyal cohort is a tricky task, that requires resources an time.
To make an animal cohort, one must acquire an animal. This animal must not be an animal companion, familiar or any other similar beast. The animal must be neutral or friendly towards the trainer. A hostile animal cannot be trained. This animal cannot be intelligent or too magical in nature, although the DM can allow for exceptions in certain cases. This animal, however, must have at least 1 point of intelligence to be trained properly.
To train an animal and increase they combat potential takes time and resources. The fashion in which an animal can become more powerful is similar to how one teaches animals new tricks, with the exception that the time needed to train the animal and the difficulty depends on the animals HD. For every new HD the animal will poses the trainer must use up (new HD x 10) gp worth of nonspecific materials. Time needed to further advance the animals HD by one step is (new HD x 2 + 2) days of training. The Handel Animal skill difficulty for training the animal is (15 + (animal new HD x 2)). One can teach animals new tricks and train them to be cohorts at the same time, but one cannot train more than 3 animal cohorts at any same time.
Example: Training a raven and increasing his HD from 1 to 2 will take 20 gp and 4 days of successful training, the Handle animal DC is 15+(2 x 2)=19. Training a bear of 4 HD to 5 HD will take 50 gp and 10 days and a check with a DC 25.
The maximum amount of HD any one animal cohort can have is equal to the trainers HD. The trainer can have his HD x 2 amount of animal cohorts HD. This means a level 3 human could have 6 HD worth of animals aiding him.
While I like several of your Keydan (especially bluff & escape artist, those are quite inspired), I'll admit to disliking the linguistics one. It's too much bookkeeping for my I find.
As for the handle animal, that's an interesting idea. I'll have to work out the math more, because it seem to basically be a free animal companion.
While I like several of your Keydan (especially bluff & escape artist, those are quite inspired), I'll admit to disliking the linguistics one. It's too much bookkeeping for my I find.
As for the handle animal, that's an interesting idea. I'll have to work out the math more, because it seem to basically be a free animal companion.
That linguistics part is just my generals stance on the skill, gaining 1 language per 1 point is overpowered and illogical. One could just nerf it to 3 ranks=language. A player can go from level 1 to 2 or to level 3 even after just 1 encounter, in a fast pace campaign, and the suddenly the next morning he knows how to speak Ork or Goblin.
And animal cohorts is not much different form regular cohorts. I made this after a player-druid wanted to have a whole pack of woodland creatures to follow him. One could nerf it all. Like for example - make it a feat one hast to take, where the amount of total HD your cohorts have equals to your handle animal ranks. And additional feats will increase the HD amount. As a result, you can have a flock of weak creatures or a few stronger ones. And they are just animals, no special abilities besides the ones they already have.
While I like several of your Keydan (especially bluff & escape artist, those are quite inspired), I'll admit to disliking the linguistics one. It's too much bookkeeping for my I find.
As for the handle animal, that's an interesting idea. I'll have to work out the math more, because it seem to basically be a free animal companion.
That linguistics part is just my generals stance on the skill, gaining 1 language per 1 point is overpowered and illogical. One could just nerf it to 3 ranks=language. A player can go from level 1 to 2 or to level 3 even after just 1 encounter, in a fast pace campaign, and the suddenly the next morning he knows how to speak Ork or Goblin.
And animal cohorts is not much different form regular cohorts. I made this after a player-druid wanted to have a whole pack of woodland creatures to follow him. One could nerf it all. Like for example - make it a feat one hast to take, where the amount of total HD your cohorts have equals to your handle animal ranks. And additional feats will increase the HD amount. As a result, you can have a flock of weak creatures or a few stronger ones. And they are just animals, no special abilities besides the ones they already have.
I'll admit I'm not on board with the notion that 1 SP=1 language as OP (A mere casting of "tongues" does far more, so I dont see it as a problem).
As for the handle animal thing, I think I would limit it to a creature no more HD than 1/2 your handle animal ranks (though you could have several, up to your handle animal rank in HD). Never forget, animal companions never go past 16 HD & CR 11, so it's a difficult balancing act.
Handle animal HD limits: I'd actually replace with CR limits, scrap the whole existing PF animal companion system (which does nothing but cater to ailurophiles), and use Bestiary + simple templates + martial class levels as desired (1 level = +1 CR) + quick and dirty "+2 animal HD ~ +1 CR" equivalences. In other words, players can design a dire wolf ranger companion or whatever, but still be kept within reasonable limits, regardless of what kind of wanky stuff they dream up.
I agree that the total capacity should be pegged to Handle Animal ranks, but I'd maybe make the scaling slightly more robust.
More to come when I get a chance...
Handle animal HD limits: I'd actually replace with CR limits, scrap the whole existing PF animal companion system (which does nothing but cater to ailurophiles), and use Bestiary + simple templates + quick and dirty "+2 HD ~ +1 CR" equivalences.
I agree that the total capacity should be pegged to Handle Animal ranks, but I'd maybe make the scaling slightly more robust.
More to come when I get a chance...
I've done some pretty decent analysis of animal companions (It came originally from analysis of the "stonelord's" elemental companion") and most cap out with stats equivalent to a CR 11 creature (about).
I will admit, I'm not fond of making it EASIER for people to get hanger-ons, if only because of the bookkeeping. But it might be worth reworking the obtention of animal companions.
And I am OFFENDED that you think AC-s cater to ailurophile! Some of us like dinosaurs you know! :P
I will admit, I'm not fond of making it EASIER for people to get hanger-ons, if only because of the bookkeeping. But it might be worth reworking the obtention of animal companions.
I actually used it to supersede the existing animal companion/mount rules, and then made a talent allowing a fighter to get one -- because a 10th level fighter without a flying magic item needs a griffon or pegasus or whatever just to stay viable.
So, ranks in Handle Animal are a necessary condition, but not a sufficient one.
Handle animal HD limits: I'd actually replace with CR limits, scrap the whole existing PF animal companion system (which does nothing but cater to ailurophiles), and use Bestiary + simple templates + martial class levels as desired (1 level = +1 CR) + quick and dirty "+2 animal HD ~ +1 CR" equivalences. In other words, players can design a dire wolf ranger companion or whatever, but still be kept within reasonable limits, regardless of what kind of wanky stuff they dream up.
I agree that the total capacity should be pegged to Handle Animal ranks, but I'd maybe make the scaling slightly more robust.
More to come when I get a chance...
In Legend, the Ride skill comes with a mount. Sounds similar (and good).